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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:31 pm

the prices of anything health related are too high because of government intervention. Everything the government touches explodes in price (tuition, real estate, school lunches, food)

On the other hand, the free market has a strong track record of lowering prices, and maximizing freedom and liberty
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Symmetry on Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:37 pm

Phatscotty wrote:the prices of anything health related are too high because of government intervention. Everything the government touches explodes in price (tuition, real estate, school lunches, food)

On the other hand, the free market has a strong track record of lowering prices, and maximizing freedom and liberty


Huh, you kind of left out the evidence in that post. I'd like to look at your strong track record, if you're ok to display.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Night Strike on Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:59 am

Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:the prices of anything health related are too high because of government intervention. Everything the government touches explodes in price (tuition, real estate, school lunches, food)

On the other hand, the free market has a strong track record of lowering prices, and maximizing freedom and liberty


Huh, you kind of left out the evidence in that post. I'd like to look at your strong track record, if you're ok to display.


Doctors are required to do several different tests, even if they know the tests are unnecessary, in order to avoid being sued if something goes wrong. The government has either forced such tests to happen or allows people to sue for any reason, regardless of merit. The government doesn't let people buy insurance policies across state lines, so people are stuck buying whatever minimum coverage their state mandates instead of buying the best product for themselves (which is the basis of the free market). When the government DOES get involved in paying for medical care, they don't pay the doctors full market prices for the work, so they have to charge private purchasers more in order to make up the difference.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:14 am

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:the prices of anything health related are too high because of government intervention. Everything the government touches explodes in price (tuition, real estate, school lunches, food)

On the other hand, the free market has a strong track record of lowering prices, and maximizing freedom and liberty


Huh, you kind of left out the evidence in that post. I'd like to look at your strong track record, if you're ok to display.


Doctors are required to do several different tests, even if they know the tests are unnecessary, in order to avoid being sued if something goes wrong. The government has either forced such tests to happen or allows people to sue for any reason, regardless of merit. The government doesn't let people buy insurance policies across state lines, so people are stuck buying whatever minimum coverage their state mandates instead of buying the best product for themselves (which is the basis of the free market). When the government DOES get involved in paying for medical care, they don't pay the doctors full market prices for the work, so they have to charge private purchasers more in order to make up the difference.


You seem to have left out the evidence I was asking for, and replaced it with a weird rant about how you think things are.

I would advise reading this

McAllen, Texas and the high cost of healthcare

It's pretty dismissive of the "fear of getting sued" argument that you propose. Indeed, it points out that medical malpractice suits are largely an irrelevant excuse.

One night, I went to dinner with six McAllen doctors. All were what you would call bread-and-butter physicians: busy, full-time, private-practice doctors who work from seven in the morning to seven at night and sometimes later, their waiting rooms teeming and their desks stacked with medical charts to review.

Some were dubious when I told them that McAllen was the country’s most expensive place for health care. I gave them the spending data from Medicare. In 1992, in the McAllen market, the average cost per Medicare enrollee was $4,891, almost exactly the national average. But since then, year after year, McAllen’s health costs have grown faster than any other market in the country, ultimately soaring by more than ten thousand dollars per person.

“Maybe the service is better here,” the cardiologist suggested. People can be seen faster and get their tests more readily, he said.

Others were skeptical. “I don’t think that explains the costs he’s talking about,” the general surgeon said.

“It’s malpractice,” a family physician who had practiced here for thirty-three years said.

“McAllen is legal hell,” the cardiologist agreed. Doctors order unnecessary tests just to protect themselves, he said. Everyone thought the lawyers here were worse than elsewhere.

That explanation puzzled me. Several years ago, Texas passed a tough malpractice law that capped pain-and-suffering awards at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Didn’t lawsuits go down?

“Practically to zero,” the cardiologist admitted.

“Come on,” the general surgeon finally said. “We all know these arguments are bullshit. There is overutilization here, pure and simple.” Doctors, he said, were racking up charges with extra tests, services, and procedures.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:02 pm

Symmetry wrote:Several years ago, Texas passed a tough malpractice law that capped pain-and-suffering awards at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:07 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Several years ago, Texas passed a tough malpractice law that capped pain-and-suffering awards at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars.


I didn't write that, Atul Gawande did, and the full quote is:

Others were skeptical. “I don’t think that explains the costs he’s talking about,” the general surgeon said.

“It’s malpractice,” a family physician who had practiced here for thirty-three years said.

“McAllen is legal hell,” the cardiologist agreed. Doctors order unnecessary tests just to protect themselves, he said. Everyone thought the lawyers here were worse than elsewhere.

That explanation puzzled me. Several years ago, Texas passed a tough malpractice law that capped pain-and-suffering awards at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Didn’t lawsuits go down?

“Practically to zero,” the cardiologist admitted.

“Come on,” the general surgeon finally said. “We all know these arguments are bullshit. There is overutilization here, pure and simple.” Doctors, he said, were racking up charges with extra tests, services, and procedures.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:22 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Several years ago, Texas passed a tough malpractice law that capped pain-and-suffering awards at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars.


I didn't write that, Atul Gawande did, and the full quote is:

Others were skeptical. “I don’t think that explains the costs he’s talking about,” the general surgeon said.

“It’s malpractice,” a family physician who had practiced here for thirty-three years said.

“McAllen is legal hell,” the cardiologist agreed. Doctors order unnecessary tests just to protect themselves, he said. Everyone thought the lawyers here were worse than elsewhere.

That explanation puzzled me. Several years ago, Texas passed a tough malpractice law that capped pain-and-suffering awards at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Didn’t lawsuits go down?

“Practically to zero,” the cardiologist admitted.

“Come on,” the general surgeon finally said. “We all know these arguments are bullshit. There is overutilization here, pure and simple.” Doctors, he said, were racking up charges with extra tests, services, and procedures.


I know, I read it. Texas is not all states, nor representative of all states.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Lootifer on Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:29 pm

Phatscotty wrote:the prices of anything health related are too high because of government intervention. Everything the government touches explodes in price (tuition, real estate, school lunches, food)

On the other hand, the free market has a strong track record of lowering prices, and maximizing freedom and liberty

Shortsighted and narrow views like this is the single reason I argue with you so strongly PS (you often call it trolling). Your post looks as though you didnt read a single word I said on the previous page.
I go to the gym to justify my mockery of fat people.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby jj3044 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:31 pm

aad0906 wrote:
jj3044 wrote:Healthcare costs increased substantially, as a percentage of GDP from 1968 to 2008. Why? I'm sure the growing number of obese people and increases in the average age of our population had much to do with it. But one would think technological advancement would breed less need to spend money on healthcare. There are a number of studies showing what drives healthcare costs in the US. Such factors include increase utiliation of health insurance created by increased consumer demand (which will only increase now that we have "free" health insurance), new treatments, and more intensive diagnostic screening. Other researchers indicated that healthcare providers are rewarded for treating and testing patients rather than curing them. None of these cost factors are helped by the Affordable Care Act.


Healthcare costs increased also DUE to technological advance. 200 years ago, if you had cancer, you'd never find out and simply die. No cost. 30 years ago if you had cancer, they put you and a machine that radiates a very large part of your body and your survival chances increased tremendously, but it did cost a lot of money and the therapy also damaged healthy tissue. Of course you would now get older and... the older we get the more healthcare we need (simple math plus older people generally need more healthcare than younger people). Nowadays we have machines that can treat tumors with pinpoint precision. Higher chances of survival and less damage to healthy tissue but... exponentially more expensive as these high precision machines can cost in excess of $1 million each. The mere fact that we can now discover more and more diseases/ailments and also treat them lease to higher healthcare cost.

Speaking of people putting words in other people's mouths... I never wrote that quote above.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:54 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Several years ago, Texas passed a tough malpractice law that capped pain-and-suffering awards at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars.


I didn't write that, Atul Gawande did, and the full quote is:

Others were skeptical. “I don’t think that explains the costs he’s talking about,” the general surgeon said.

“It’s malpractice,” a family physician who had practiced here for thirty-three years said.

“McAllen is legal hell,” the cardiologist agreed. Doctors order unnecessary tests just to protect themselves, he said. Everyone thought the lawyers here were worse than elsewhere.

That explanation puzzled me. Several years ago, Texas passed a tough malpractice law that capped pain-and-suffering awards at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Didn’t lawsuits go down?

“Practically to zero,” the cardiologist admitted.

“Come on,” the general surgeon finally said. “We all know these arguments are bullshit. There is overutilization here, pure and simple.” Doctors, he said, were racking up charges with extra tests, services, and procedures.


I know, I read it. Texas is not all states, nor representative of all states.


It's not really about Texas, it's about the second most expensive county for healthcare in the US. Hint- lawsuits ain't the problem.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:09 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Several years ago, Texas passed a tough malpractice law that capped pain-and-suffering awards at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars.


I didn't write that, Atul Gawande did, and the full quote is:

Others were skeptical. “I don’t think that explains the costs he’s talking about,” the general surgeon said.

“It’s malpractice,” a family physician who had practiced here for thirty-three years said.

“McAllen is legal hell,” the cardiologist agreed. Doctors order unnecessary tests just to protect themselves, he said. Everyone thought the lawyers here were worse than elsewhere.

That explanation puzzled me. Several years ago, Texas passed a tough malpractice law that capped pain-and-suffering awards at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Didn’t lawsuits go down?

“Practically to zero,” the cardiologist admitted.

“Come on,” the general surgeon finally said. “We all know these arguments are bullshit. There is overutilization here, pure and simple.” Doctors, he said, were racking up charges with extra tests, services, and procedures.


I know, I read it. Texas is not all states, nor representative of all states.


It's not really about Texas, it's about the second most expensive county for healthcare in the US. Hint- lawsuits ain't the problem.


Lawsuits aren't the problem in that particular jurisdiction. Using one county to prove the point in every other jurisdiction in the United States can be effective, but is also misleading.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:14 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Several years ago, Texas passed a tough malpractice law that capped pain-and-suffering awards at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars.


I didn't write that, Atul Gawande did, and the full quote is:

Others were skeptical. “I don’t think that explains the costs he’s talking about,” the general surgeon said.

“It’s malpractice,” a family physician who had practiced here for thirty-three years said.

“McAllen is legal hell,” the cardiologist agreed. Doctors order unnecessary tests just to protect themselves, he said. Everyone thought the lawyers here were worse than elsewhere.

That explanation puzzled me. Several years ago, Texas passed a tough malpractice law that capped pain-and-suffering awards at two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Didn’t lawsuits go down?

“Practically to zero,” the cardiologist admitted.

“Come on,” the general surgeon finally said. “We all know these arguments are bullshit. There is overutilization here, pure and simple.” Doctors, he said, were racking up charges with extra tests, services, and procedures.


I know, I read it. Texas is not all states, nor representative of all states.


It's not really about Texas, it's about the second most expensive county for healthcare in the US. Hint- lawsuits ain't the problem.


Lawsuits aren't the problem in that particular jurisdiction. Using one county to prove the point in every other jurisdiction in the United States can be effective, but is also misleading.


Perhaps, but it is one of the most expensive places for healthcare, and the writer makes a significant effort to compare it to neighbouring counties that pay less. I'm not sure how you think the article is misleading given that it deals with those issues.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:16 pm

Did I say it was misleading? I like that article. I've read it many times.
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Symmetry on Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:19 pm

thegreekdog wrote:Did I say it was misleading? I like that article. I've read it many times.


Okay
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Re: ObamaCare: States Defiant!

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:12 pm

Just checking....Does Obamacare still kick in on the same day we are set to go over the fiscal cliff?

:sick:

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