ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderators: Community Team, Global Moderators

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby warmonger1981 on Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:55 pm

When you buy a car no insurance needed. Its when you voluntarily drive the car you are required to then have insurance. The person driving is not forced to drive they volunteer to. People technically done NEED cars there are other forms of transportation. Wether it is fair is another story.
User avatar
Lieutenant warmonger1981
 
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: ST.PAUL
Medals: 57
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (3) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (3) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (12)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:19 am

Night Strike wrote:Actually, the only health care the government should be buying is for veterans. All other health care funding should be private money, not taxpayer dollars.


Actually, the only healthcare the government "should" buy for veterans is for injuries related to their service. Anything else is just as "socialism" as medicare, medicaid, or subsidized insurance.
Image
User avatar
Major stahrgazer
 
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 11:59 am
Location: Figment of the Imagination...
Medals: 56
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Bot Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (4) Clan Achievement (7)
Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (7)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby spurgistan on Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:31 am

Night Strike wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:You mean like "corporations" forcing you to buy car insurance if you own a car? If you own a car, you must have car insurance. The true double standard here is that you have to buy car insurance if you want to own a car, but you don't have to buy health insurance in order to utilize it. Everyone WILL utilize the system at some point in their life at the very least in birth or death. And if you never have insurance and never receive preventive care, there will most likely be SIGNIFICANT expenditures in between those two. You get cancer, can't afford treatment, get it anyway, and the TAXPAYERS are forced to carry the burden.


There's always the option of not getting the treatment (which will happen anyway once the government resorts to rationing).


Ah, rationing. Conservatives love to talk about spending tax dollars efficiently -- but not when it comes to health care costs!


Actually, the only health care the government should be buying is for veterans. All other health care funding should be private money, not taxpayer dollars.


Source?
Mr_Adams wrote:You, sir, are an idiot.


Timminz wrote:By that logic, you eat babies.
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class spurgistan
 
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:30 pm
Location: Wormtown, MA, USA
Medals: 16
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1) Assassin Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (2)
Ratings Achievement (1)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:11 pm

jj3044 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
jj3044 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
jj3044 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:What a weird business model. The government's ACA seems to (a) compel people who don't need insurance into getting insurance, (b) while shifting the costs of others' risks and costs onto those who should be rewarded for having less health risks and costs--thus creating perverse incentives, (c) leave some remainder uninsured yet they must pay the lolfee, and (d) offer select businesses an exemption.

If any corporation did this, people would be outraged. If the government does this, then many don't seem to worry about the outcomes. Maybe voting is only one of those "feel good" moments. I don't see why so many find ACA to be a good idea.

I don't think you will find anyone who thinks that the ACA is perfect. Even those who support it can find particulars that don't make a ton of sense.

However, you have to look at it as a whole. When you do, THAT is when we think it is a good idea...

It's the whole "I disagree with 1% of it, so I disagree with it entirely". Weigh the benefits. If it is going to cost 1.1 Trillion over 10 years ok... but how much could it save?

The answer is of course that we can't quantify it now, there aren't any crystal balls. However, it does do many things that will end up saving a substantial sum of money in the long term. Hopefully it saves more than 1.1 Trillion and improves health outcomes enough that it is worth it.

It is working in Massachusetts, that's a good, sign... right?


(a)-(d) > 1%.

$1.1T over 10 years? Expenditures are imagined to be cost-savings? Taxes will dig into your income, no matter how this is twisted... What about the future costs of paying interest on debt? It's not like any of this significantly contributes to lowering deficit spending. Future generations of Americans--especially the young--will be pay much more later than today. Does that "picture taken as a whole" seem enjoyable?

Does the National Healthcare plan = MA's plan? Will there be the same benefits and costs? Doubt it.

Since the government is doing this, then you don't seem to concerned about the outcomes. Any corporation which forces people to pay for its services would be a different story. I'm just pointing out the double standard many seem to apply in such cases. As long as roughly 50% of eligible voters can express their uninformed opinions on "political markets," then they seem to feel good enough about it.

You mean like "corporations" forcing you to buy car insurance if you own a car? If you own a car, you must have car insurance. The true double standard here is that you have to buy car insurance if you want to own a car, but you don't have to buy health insurance in order to utilize it. Everyone WILL utilize the system at some point in their life at the very least in birth or death. And if you never have insurance and never receive preventive care, there will most likely be SIGNIFICANT expenditures in between those two. You get cancer, can't afford treatment, get it anyway, and the TAXPAYERS are forced to carry the burden.


You do realize that you are required by law to have car insurance, right? Do corporations create the laws or do politicians?

Right. Now you are required by law to have health insurance. I fail to see the point you are trying to make here.


1. People react differently toward the involuntary exchanges of government compared to voluntary exchanges with corporations.
2. There's a double standard here.
3. JJ: Yeah, but corporations force you to buy car insurance.
4. No, they don't; they don't make the laws, they don't have security give you tickets and/or bring you to jail, etc.
5. JJ: I don't get it.
6. BBS summarizes and hopes JJ gets it.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3861
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:40 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote: No, they don't; they don't make the laws


Hi. You may remember me from all of your posts. How's it going? I'm just, um, a little worried that you've forgotten about me given this statement. I hope you haven't forgotten about me. I love you BBS.

Love,

Rent-Seeking

PS Corporate Cronyism says hi too!
Image
User avatar
Sergeant thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6217
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:44 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote: No, they don't; they don't make the laws


Hi. You may remember me from all of your posts. How's it going? I'm just, um, a little worried that you've forgotten about me given this statement. I hope you haven't forgotten about me. I love you BBS.

Love,

Rent-Seeking

PS Corporate Cronyism says hi too!


I'm glad you mentioned it, but select corporations which can effectively use the government still ultimately rely on the government to maintain that arrangement. Thus, the problem lies with government---but here's the kicker: most people don't like reaching that conclusion. They'll rail against corporations while bending over for politicians in expectation of getting a wet gift.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3861
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:42 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote: No, they don't; they don't make the laws


Hi. You may remember me from all of your posts. How's it going? I'm just, um, a little worried that you've forgotten about me given this statement. I hope you haven't forgotten about me. I love you BBS.

Love,

Rent-Seeking

PS Corporate Cronyism says hi too!


I'm glad you mentioned it, but select corporations which can effectively use the government still ultimately rely on the government to maintain that arrangement. Thus, the problem lies with government---but here's the kicker: most people don't like reaching that conclusion. They'll rail against corporations while bending over for politicians in expectation of getting a wet gift.


And vice versa, I might add.
Image
User avatar
Sergeant thegreekdog
 
Posts: 6217
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:55 am
Location: Philadelphia
Medals: 38
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (2) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Manual Troops Achievement (3) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2) Fog of War Achievement (3) Speed Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (2) General Contribution (2)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:44 pm

And mice purses, I might add.

Image


--Andy
User avatar
Sergeant AndyDufresne
Retired Administrator
 
Posts: 25366
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:22 pm
Location: A Banana Palm in Zihuatanejo
Medals: 20
Standard Achievement (2) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (1)
Freestyle Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (1) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) General Achievement (4) General Contribution (2)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby jj3044 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:42 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:1. People react differently toward the involuntary exchanges of government compared to voluntary exchanges with corporations.
2. There's a double standard here.
3. JJ: Yeah, but corporations force you to buy car insurance.
4. No, they don't; they don't make the laws, they don't have security give you tickets and/or bring you to jail, etc.
5. JJ: I don't get it.
6. BBS summarizes and hopes JJ gets it.

LOL, if you think I didn't understand your point, you really don't understand mine.

1. Agreed.
2-4. You obviously missed my sentiment. I didn't say corporations. You did (in the section I bolded). I said "corporations" in quotes because you said that corporations force people to pay for their services. I know it isn't the corporations, it is the law. That wasn't what you were saying, and that is why I put it in quotations.

My main point here is that if you choose to drive a car you are forced by the government to buy insurance. So, if we will all use the healthcare system in our lives, shouldn't we be forced to pay for it? You have not yet responded to this question.
Image
User avatar
Brigadier jj3044
 
Posts: 512
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:22 pm
Medals: 71
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (23)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Night Strike on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:08 pm

jj3044 wrote:My main point here is that if you choose to drive a car you are forced by the government to buy insurance. So, if we will all use the healthcare system in our lives, shouldn't we be forced to pay for it? You have not yet responded to this question.


Because it's completely antithetical to freedom for the government to force you to buy a product simply because you live. Furthermore, the people who DO have enough money to cover car accident expenses do not have to buy insurance, yet there aren't even those options under mandatory Obamacare. It's either turn your money over to the insurance company or the government....we aren't allowed to spend our own money the way we choose.
Image
User avatar
Captain Night Strike
Tournament Director
Tournament Director
 
Posts: 8633
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:52 pm
Medals: 79
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3)
Tournament Achievement (2) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (11) Tournament Contribution (12) General Contribution (18)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Symmetry on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:16 pm

Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:My main point here is that if you choose to drive a car you are forced by the government to buy insurance. So, if we will all use the healthcare system in our lives, shouldn't we be forced to pay for it? You have not yet responded to this question.


Because it's completely antithetical to freedom for the government to force you to buy a product simply because you live. Furthermore, the people who DO have enough money to cover car accident expenses do not have to buy insurance, yet there aren't even those options under mandatory Obamacare. It's either turn your money over to the insurance company or the government....we aren't allowed to spend our own money the way we choose.


So choose a country without taxation or government. They're mostly called failed states. You'll be very free there.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Night Strike on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:19 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:My main point here is that if you choose to drive a car you are forced by the government to buy insurance. So, if we will all use the healthcare system in our lives, shouldn't we be forced to pay for it? You have not yet responded to this question.


Because it's completely antithetical to freedom for the government to force you to buy a product simply because you live. Furthermore, the people who DO have enough money to cover car accident expenses do not have to buy insurance, yet there aren't even those options under mandatory Obamacare. It's either turn your money over to the insurance company or the government....we aren't allowed to spend our own money the way we choose.


So choose a country without taxation or government. They're mostly called failed states. You'll be very free there.


I never said I wanted to go without those things. I've always stated that our government should be limited to its founding document: the Constitution. It shouldn't continue expanding its spending, regulations, and power into perpetuity. When it can mandate purchases only because a person breathes, it has moved well beyond its authority.
Image
User avatar
Captain Night Strike
Tournament Director
Tournament Director
 
Posts: 8633
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:52 pm
Medals: 79
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3)
Tournament Achievement (2) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (11) Tournament Contribution (12) General Contribution (18)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby warmonger1981 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:23 pm

Dles anyone and I mean ANYONE even know whats in the bill. NO.. So why complain for it as no one even knows what its all about. Unless people truly know what the bill says the people arguing for it might not like some of the hidden provisions.this is just a government from to TAKE CARE OF YOU. AKA have total control of your health. Before you know it health providers will tell you how to live or the government will probably tax you on being overweight or having to high blood pressure.
User avatar
Lieutenant warmonger1981
 
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: ST.PAUL
Medals: 57
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (3) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (3) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (12)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Symmetry on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:24 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:My main point here is that if you choose to drive a car you are forced by the government to buy insurance. So, if we will all use the healthcare system in our lives, shouldn't we be forced to pay for it? You have not yet responded to this question.


Because it's completely antithetical to freedom for the government to force you to buy a product simply because you live. Furthermore, the people who DO have enough money to cover car accident expenses do not have to buy insurance, yet there aren't even those options under mandatory Obamacare. It's either turn your money over to the insurance company or the government....we aren't allowed to spend our own money the way we choose.


So choose a country without taxation or government. They're mostly called failed states. You'll be very free there.


I never said I wanted to go without those things. I've always stated that our government should be limited to its founding document: the Constitution. It shouldn't continue expanding its spending, regulations, and power into perpetuity. When it can mandate purchases only because a person breathes, it has moved well beyond its authority.


Even then you wouldn't be able to spend "your" money in the way that you choose. That would be antithetical to freedom, would it not?
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Night Strike on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:31 pm

Symmetry wrote:Even then you wouldn't be able to spend "your" money in the way that you choose. That would be antithetical to freedom, would it not?


There are specific things the federal government is tasked to cover. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that I can be forced to buy a product or hand over my money to the government instead. It is my choice where I spend my money, and the money I have to pay in taxes is supposed to go to Constitutional tasks of the federal government, not unconstitutional ones. Freedom doesn't exist when people have to turn over everything to the government for them to then dole out what they think each person needs.


And speaking of the completely wrong role of government, at least this Democrat admits that his goal is to make sure the government pays for everything and completely removes personal and familial responsibility from the citizens:

(CNSNews.com) - It's the job of government, not families, to take care of grandma, says Rep. Jim McDermott (D-Wash.), a member of the House Ways and Means Committee.

McDermott, appearing on C-SPAN Tuesday, said he opposes cuts to Medicare, the government program that paid his own parents' medical bills: "Now we have a Medicare program, where my father -- and my father lived to 93, my mother to 97 -- and my brothers and sisters and I did nothing for them, except pay their taxes."

McDermott said there is no reason to cut Medicare benefits for senior citizens, even though spending will escalate as millions of Baby Boomers come into the program: "So we simply have got to deal with the fact that the population is going to mean more spending," he said. "It's not that spending is out of control."

He said Republicans want to raise the retirement age to save taxpayer dollars. And what would seniors do then? They would do what they did before Medicare -- which is "turn to their children" to pay their medical bills.

McDermott pointed to his own grandmother as an example:

"When I grew up, my grandmother had four daughters, and she spent three months with each one of them. And she had no Medicare, she had no Social Security. And she lived with her daughters. And we took care of her. I mean, I got thrown out of my bedroom. My bedroom became grandma's bedroom, I slept on the couch in the living room, because that's the way families took care of their seniors before 1964.

"Now we have a Medidare program, where my father -- and my father lived to 93, my mother to 97 -- and my brothers and sisters and I did nothing for them, except pay their taxes.

"One year, we gave my mom a Christmas gift, a hearing aid. A hearing aid cost about $800, a lot of money. So all of us chipped in and we bought my ma a hearing aid. That was her Christmas gift...Medicare doesn't cover that.

"And so as you get older and lose your hearing, good luck, you're on your own. That's what we say to seniors with their hearing problems. And my view is, that we're a better country than that. We can find a way to do it and make the system more efficient."

McDermott says Democrats are "going to find the money to cover all the senior citizens in this country under the Medicare program at 65." He said there are "all kinds of ways" to save money in the Medicare program, "but it doesn't mean taking benefits away from senior citizens."

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/rep-mcdermott-thanks-medicare-my-brothers-and-sisters-and-i-did-nothing-our-parents
Image
User avatar
Captain Night Strike
Tournament Director
Tournament Director
 
Posts: 8633
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:52 pm
Medals: 79
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3)
Tournament Achievement (2) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (11) Tournament Contribution (12) General Contribution (18)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Symmetry on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:37 pm

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Even then you wouldn't be able to spend "your" money in the way that you choose. That would be antithetical to freedom, would it not?


There are specific things the federal government is tasked to cover. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that I can be forced to buy a product or hand over my money to the government instead. It is my choice where I spend my money, and the money I have to pay in taxes is supposed to go to Constitutional tasks of the federal government, not unconstitutional ones. Freedom doesn't exist when people have to turn over everything to the government for them to then dole out what they think each person needs.


And speaking of the completely wrong role of government, at least this Democrat admits that his goal is to make sure the government pays for everything and completely removes personal and familial responsibility from the citizens:

(CNSNews.com) - It's the job of government, not families, to take care of grandma, says Rep. Jim McDermott (D-Wash.), a member of the House Ways and Means Committee.

McDermott, appearing on C-SPAN Tuesday, said he opposes cuts to Medicare, the government program that paid his own parents' medical bills: "Now we have a Medicare program, where my father -- and my father lived to 93, my mother to 97 -- and my brothers and sisters and I did nothing for them, except pay their taxes."

McDermott said there is no reason to cut Medicare benefits for senior citizens, even though spending will escalate as millions of Baby Boomers come into the program: "So we simply have got to deal with the fact that the population is going to mean more spending," he said. "It's not that spending is out of control."

He said Republicans want to raise the retirement age to save taxpayer dollars. And what would seniors do then? They would do what they did before Medicare -- which is "turn to their children" to pay their medical bills.

McDermott pointed to his own grandmother as an example:

"When I grew up, my grandmother had four daughters, and she spent three months with each one of them. And she had no Medicare, she had no Social Security. And she lived with her daughters. And we took care of her. I mean, I got thrown out of my bedroom. My bedroom became grandma's bedroom, I slept on the couch in the living room, because that's the way families took care of their seniors before 1964.

"Now we have a Medidare program, where my father -- and my father lived to 93, my mother to 97 -- and my brothers and sisters and I did nothing for them, except pay their taxes.

"One year, we gave my mom a Christmas gift, a hearing aid. A hearing aid cost about $800, a lot of money. So all of us chipped in and we bought my ma a hearing aid. That was her Christmas gift...Medicare doesn't cover that.

"And so as you get older and lose your hearing, good luck, you're on your own. That's what we say to seniors with their hearing problems. And my view is, that we're a better country than that. We can find a way to do it and make the system more efficient."

McDermott says Democrats are "going to find the money to cover all the senior citizens in this country under the Medicare program at 65." He said there are "all kinds of ways" to save money in the Medicare program, "but it doesn't mean taking benefits away from senior citizens."

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/rep-mcdermott-thanks-medicare-my-brothers-and-sisters-and-i-did-nothing-our-parents


So essentially you're shifting your principals. You now find paying taxes an acceptable means of purchasing something, as long as it's done without your direct (albeit limited) choice?

Your arguments shift around quite a lot NS. Is this latest post more in line with your thinking, or do you think your previous posts are your position?
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby stahrgazer on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:40 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:Dles anyone and I mean ANYONE even know whats in the bill. NO.. So why complain for it as no one even knows what its all about. Unless people truly know what the bill says the people arguing for it might not like some of the hidden provisions.this is just a government from to TAKE CARE OF YOU. AKA have total control of your health. Before you know it health providers will tell you how to live or the government will probably tax you on being overweight or having to high blood pressure.



Which is fair, really. There should be extra taxes on sugary stuff and fatty stuff, just like there are extra taxes on nicotine stuff.
Image
User avatar
Major stahrgazer
 
Posts: 1392
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 11:59 am
Location: Figment of the Imagination...
Medals: 56
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3)
Bot Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (1) General Achievement (4) Clan Achievement (7)
Tournament Contribution (1) General Contribution (7)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby jj3044 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:45 pm

Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:My main point here is that if you choose to drive a car you are forced by the government to buy insurance. So, if we will all use the healthcare system in our lives, shouldn't we be forced to pay for it? You have not yet responded to this question.


Because it's completely antithetical to freedom for the government to force you to buy a product simply because you live. Furthermore, the people who DO have enough money to cover car accident expenses do not have to buy insurance, yet there aren't even those options under mandatory Obamacare. It's either turn your money over to the insurance company or the government....we aren't allowed to spend our own money the way we choose.

Are there states where you are not required to buy car insurance if you drive? Serious question, I wasn't aware of any.

stahrgazer wrote:
warmonger1981 wrote:Dles anyone and I mean ANYONE even know whats in the bill. NO.. So why complain for it as no one even knows what its all about. Unless people truly know what the bill says the people arguing for it might not like some of the hidden provisions.this is just a government from to TAKE CARE OF YOU. AKA have total control of your health. Before you know it health providers will tell you how to live or the government will probably tax you on being overweight or having to high blood pressure.



Which is fair, really. There should be extra taxes on sugary stuff and fatty stuff, just like there are extra taxes on nicotine stuff.

Very fair, and I have readily admitted in this thread that I don't think the law is perfect, and does have an awful lot of ambiguity.

Also, although the government doesn't mandate that you pay more if you are overweight or smoke, employers ARE allowed to have employees pay more if they smoke, are overweight, etc (as long as they implement it properly and don't break any of the rules in HIPAA, the ADA, GINA, etc).
Image
User avatar
Brigadier jj3044
 
Posts: 512
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:22 pm
Medals: 71
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (23)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby warmonger1981 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:55 pm

All I can say is once the foot is in the door it isn't long before most aspects of your health will be in review. Some people are naturally big not by there own doings. Is it fair to make them pay more if it is medically not their fault. Its a very slippery slope.
User avatar
Lieutenant warmonger1981
 
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: ST.PAUL
Medals: 57
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (3) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (3) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (12)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Symmetry on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:03 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:All I can say is once the foot is in the door it isn't long before most aspects of your health will be in review. Some people are naturally big not by there own doings. Is it fair to make them pay more if it is medically not their fault. Its a very slippery slope.


Is this a bad thing? The slope has always been there, both up and down, most notably with drug laws.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Symmetry
 
Posts: 1776
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:49 am
Medals: 2
Standard Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Night Strike on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:03 pm

jj3044 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:My main point here is that if you choose to drive a car you are forced by the government to buy insurance. So, if we will all use the healthcare system in our lives, shouldn't we be forced to pay for it? You have not yet responded to this question.


Because it's completely antithetical to freedom for the government to force you to buy a product simply because you live. Furthermore, the people who DO have enough money to cover car accident expenses do not have to buy insurance, yet there aren't even those options under mandatory Obamacare. It's either turn your money over to the insurance company or the government....we aren't allowed to spend our own money the way we choose.

Are there states where you are not required to buy car insurance if you drive? Serious question, I wasn't aware of any.


If you have enough money to cover what a liability insurance policy would cover, you can choose to prove assets instead of buying insurance. http://www.dmv.org/insurance/proof-of-financial-responsibility.php#tz_MO And, of course, if you don't own a car, you don't have to buy car insurance. Under Obamacare, the only way to not buy health insurance is to stop breathing.


Symmetry wrote:So essentially you're shifting your principals. You now find paying taxes an acceptable means of purchasing something, as long as it's done without your direct (albeit limited) choice?

Your arguments shift around quite a lot NS. Is this latest post more in line with your thinking, or do you think your previous posts are your position?


What are you talking about? Taxes are used to fund the necessary and proper role of the government. Mandatory purchases of private sector products are NOT included in that role.
Image
User avatar
Captain Night Strike
Tournament Director
Tournament Director
 
Posts: 8633
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:52 pm
Medals: 79
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (1) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (2) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Ratings Achievement (3)
Tournament Achievement (2) General Achievement (7) Clan Achievement (11) Tournament Contribution (12) General Contribution (18)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby warmonger1981 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:12 pm

Lits just micro manage every and I mean every aspect of a persons life. What you drive,where you live,do you have kids,are you white or black,family medical history,what color car you drive,are you prone to sunburn since that might cause cancer,do you own a dog,how far do you drive to work,do you own a gun,are you a smoker,whats your sexual preference,what do you eat,do you wear glasses have you ever been admitted into a psyche ward. These are all questions that could effect a policy. So if a person want a good policy do we have to enslave ourselves for good healthcare?
User avatar
Lieutenant warmonger1981
 
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: ST.PAUL
Medals: 57
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (2) Quadruples Achievement (2) Terminator Achievement (1)
Assassin Achievement (3) Manual Troops Achievement (2) Freestyle Achievement (3) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (3) Trench Warfare Achievement (1) Speed Achievement (4) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) General Achievement (2) Clan Achievement (12)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby jj3044 on Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:19 pm

Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:My main point here is that if you choose to drive a car you are forced by the government to buy insurance. So, if we will all use the healthcare system in our lives, shouldn't we be forced to pay for it? You have not yet responded to this question.


Because it's completely antithetical to freedom for the government to force you to buy a product simply because you live. Furthermore, the people who DO have enough money to cover car accident expenses do not have to buy insurance, yet there aren't even those options under mandatory Obamacare. It's either turn your money over to the insurance company or the government....we aren't allowed to spend our own money the way we choose.

Are there states where you are not required to buy car insurance if you drive? Serious question, I wasn't aware of any.


If you have enough money to cover what a liability insurance policy would cover, you can choose to prove assets instead of buying insurance. http://www.dmv.org/insurance/proof-of-financial-responsibility.php#tz_MO And, of course, if you don't own a car, you don't have to buy car insurance. Under Obamacare, the only way to not buy health insurance is to stop breathing.

Ah that is interesting. Thanks for the link. You learn something new every day!

The principle doesn't really change much though... the government is still saying that if you choose to not have insurance, you have to prove you have enough assets to pay, should you crash.

So, I would like to ask you this question: Would you be ok with health insurance being mandatory unless you can prove that you have the assets to pay for a major disease/condition should you get one (just as in this car insurance example)? Personally I would be in favor of that.
Image
User avatar
Brigadier jj3044
 
Posts: 512
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:22 pm
Medals: 71
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Polymorphic Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (2)
Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (2) Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (2)
Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Battle Royale Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4) Tournament Achievement (1)
General Achievement (6) Clan Achievement (23)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:47 am

jj3044 wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:1. People react differently toward the involuntary exchanges of government compared to voluntary exchanges with corporations.
2. There's a double standard here.
3. JJ: Yeah, but corporations force you to buy car insurance.
4. No, they don't; they don't make the laws, they don't have security give you tickets and/or bring you to jail, etc.
5. JJ: I don't get it.
6. BBS summarizes and hopes JJ gets it.

LOL, if you think I didn't understand your point, you really don't understand mine.

1. Agreed.
2-4. You obviously missed my sentiment. I didn't say corporations. You did (in the section I bolded). I said "corporations" in quotes because you said that corporations force people to pay for their services. I know it isn't the corporations, it is the law. That wasn't what you were saying, and that is why I put it in quotations.

My main point here is that if you choose to drive a car you are forced by the government to buy insurance. So, if we will all use the healthcare system in our lives, shouldn't we be forced to pay for it? You have not yet responded to this question.


Because it's irrelevant to the point I was making about the double standard.
User avatar
Colonel BigBallinStalin
 
Posts: 3861
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: crying into the dregs of an empty bottle of own-brand scotch on the toilet having a dump in Dagenham
Medals: 48
Standard Achievement (3) Doubles Achievement (3) Triples Achievement (3) Quadruples Achievement (3) Terminator Achievement (1)
Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4) Trench Warfare Achievement (1)
Teammate Achievement (2) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Beta Map Achievement (1) Ratings Achievement (4)
Tournament Achievement (5) General Achievement (1) Clan Achievement (10)

Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:55 am

warmonger1981 wrote:All I can say is once the foot is in the door it isn't long before most aspects of your health will be in review. Some people are naturally big not by there own doings. Is it fair to make them pay more if it is medically not their fault. Its a very slippery slope.

EVERYTHING is under review.. but not just by the government. Corporations, particularly insurance companies and employers have long beat the government to that punch, because they want to make money.

The government, on the other hand, has another job... actually protecting people against the big guys. Of course, when folks allow the big money interests to convince them their penny-anty salaries are at risk if the big guys lose a few points in their salaries, the point becomes moot.

But.. the fault of government overrun is ALWAYS with individuals, not some abstract "government" that works on its own.
Corporal 1st Class PLAYER57832
 
Posts: 2437
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:17 am
Location: Pennsylvania
Medals: 30
Standard Achievement (4) Doubles Achievement (1) Triples Achievement (1) Quadruples Achievement (1) Terminator Achievement (2)
Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (1) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (4)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (4) Ratings Achievement (4)
Training Achievement (1)

PreviousNext

Return to Babble-On Five

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

Login