ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:12 am

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Contraceptives are not “free”, as you keep insisting.


I'm well aware they aren't truly free, yet the specific words of the regulation state that contraceptives must be provided free of charge.......that means the woman doesn't even have to pay a co-pay, yet she can get any type of contraceptive, whether it be $9 or $900. What prescription, especially a voluntary prescription, can a man get without paying a co-pay? THAT is why I said you're simply reversing the discrimination that you claim to be getting rid of.

Oh BULL.

and... if you "know its not free" then stop saying that it is1

If that really were the issue, then your demand would be to insert a co-pay, NOT to demand that employers get the right to choose.

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:I was born female. I need things that you do not because I am female. Some people are born with tendencies to high blood pressure. They can only control certain factors, not the disease.


Then YOU pay for those things. It's not my job to work in order to pay for YOU to have those things. I don't owe you anything simply because you're female. You don't owe me anything simply because I'm male.

This claim, again! Seriously, you just got through saying that you know its not free….. and now you are claiming that you are paying for “other people’s healthcare!’

No, you pay for your insurance. I pay for my insurance. I realize you like to ignore the purpose of insurance, but stop pretending this is about a crusade of payment instead of just a backdoor attempt to control women’s ability to get care they need.
PLAYER57832 wrote:That the employer pays part of the compensation with insurance does not mean its not compensation for work. AND, as I said many times before, a fact you can research quite easily if you had any interest in actually educating yourself about this instead of just spouting off what you think is true… the reason employers now buy insurance is because it benefitted THEM.


Of course they started providing health insurance benefits as a way to attract the best employees BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT HAD BANNED INCREASES IN WAGES!!!! If you banned from paying better people more money, then you have to find another incentive to woo them to your company. That's how the FREE MARKET works.

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:well, guess what, male sexual issues are covered quite well.


And men pay co-pays to get those medicines, if they're covered in their plans.


Oh brother! There is nothing consistant or honest about any of your views. Just face it. Your real objection is you don’t like women taking birth control or getting other services. The rest is just a back-pedaled attempt at justifying your views.

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Just because you dislike women’s healthcare doesn’t give you the right to decide that this is some kind of optional coverage.


Where did I say I dislike women's healthcare? All I dislike is being mandated to pay for YOUR healthcare .


YOU are not paying for my or anyone else’s healthcare. You ARE paying for insurance. The way insurance works is that money gets pooled so that when you really need something incredibly expensive, its there for you. To claim it is somehow “abusive” because you stay healthy is not “free marketism”, its stupidity. Might as well cry because your house didn’t burn down!

Getting upset because women “get something you don’t get” is as stupid as getting angry because one person gets asthma medication or another has arthritis. If you want to deal with what women deal with constantly.. .there are operations you can get. Or you can just do a “fake trial” .
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby jj3044 on Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:52 am

The true story regarding the CVS program:
http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2013/ ... -it-wrong/
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby jj3044 on Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:57 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
jj3044 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:The media coverage doesn't explain this story properly. CVS pays a third party to administer the program. CVS doesn't get individual results. They only get group aggregate data, and participation data so that they can pay out the incentive (or disincentive as the case may be).

Their health information is still confidential.


"Third party" still means "not doctor-patient confidentiality".

The article (and you) said nothing about "doctor-patient" confidentiality. The issue that has been raised is about the company (CVS) having access to their employees data, which they don't!

And anyway, since you are now complaining about "doctor-patient" confidentiality, does that mean that there shouldn't be any electronic medical records? The people who build and run electronic medical records aren't doctors... and they have access to patient data...

I just used EMR's as an example, but you will find dozens if not HUNDREDS of examples of entities having access to this data for very valid reasons.

I agree with you here. You are quite correct.

BUT.. what a lot of people do not realize is that because employers pay for insurance, they often do actually have access to much of our information. HIPAA. changed some of that, but not all. Ironically so, in some cases an employer can know information about employees that their spouses cannot without direct authorization.

Groups that are self-insured (typically larger companies with say ~1000 employees or more) do have expanded access to their data, because they are actually acting as their own insurer. They use a Blue Cross, or United, or Aetna for their network and as a claims processor only. That said, there are still significant limits of what the insurer can pass along, and to my knowledge they still can't receive individual, condition-specific cases. Now, I don't work in that particular part of the industry, so I may have a misconception somewhere, but I don't think the companies can say "give me the names of my top 10 unhealthiest employees"...
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:18 pm

jj3044 wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:
jj3044 wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
jj3044 wrote:The media coverage doesn't explain this story properly. CVS pays a third party to administer the program. CVS doesn't get individual results. They only get group aggregate data, and participation data so that they can pay out the incentive (or disincentive as the case may be).

Their health information is still confidential.


"Third party" still means "not doctor-patient confidentiality".

The article (and you) said nothing about "doctor-patient" confidentiality. The issue that has been raised is about the company (CVS) having access to their employees data, which they don't!

And anyway, since you are now complaining about "doctor-patient" confidentiality, does that mean that there shouldn't be any electronic medical records? The people who build and run electronic medical records aren't doctors... and they have access to patient data...

I just used EMR's as an example, but you will find dozens if not HUNDREDS of examples of entities having access to this data for very valid reasons.

I agree with you here. You are quite correct.

BUT.. what a lot of people do not realize is that because employers pay for insurance, they often do actually have access to much of our information. HIPAA. changed some of that, but not all. Ironically so, in some cases an employer can know information about employees that their spouses cannot without direct authorization.

Groups that are self-insured (typically larger companies with say ~1000 employees or more) do have expanded access to their data, because they are actually acting as their own insurer. They use a Blue Cross, or United, or Aetna for their network and as a claims processor only. That said, there are still significant limits of what the insurer can pass along, and to my knowledge they still can't receive individual, condition-specific cases. Now, I don't work in that particular part of the industry, so I may have a misconception somewhere, but I don't think the companies can say "give me the names of my top 10 unhealthiest employees"...


I am going to stick with, “its more complicated than that”. In some cases the law has changed so that information that was very much available 10 years ago, earlier is not available now. In other cases, its just “more complicated”.

At any rate, I think release of data is a real concern, still, though not necessarily as Nightstrike asserted above with CVS (haven’t looked into that because it really is a side issue to this thread and my point).
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Night Strike on Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:44 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:OH GREAT, eliminate one of the things that makes the bill pay for itself....

Also, you DO realize (no, you don't... because you have denied this in the past ) that this was one way of not passing medical costs onto the rest of us. For someone who goes berserk over the possibility of paying less than a penny for women’s care, you are strangely on the other side of this one!


Considering the bill never paid for itself since it's passing, I don't know how you care about whether or not it's paid for. Furthermore, how does increasing taxes on medical devices lower the prices of health care? Every single business tax is passed on to the consumer or cut from other business spending (this specific one will directly harm medical device R&D).

PLAYER57832 wrote:If that really were the issue, then your demand would be to insert a co-pay, NOT to demand that employers get the right to choose.


I have demanded that as well.

PLAYER57832 wrote:This claim, again! Seriously, you just got through saying that you know its not free….. and now you are claiming that you are paying for “other people’s healthcare!’

No, you pay for your insurance. I pay for my insurance. I realize you like to ignore the purpose of insurance, but stop pretending this is about a crusade of payment instead of just a backdoor attempt to control women’s ability to get care they need.


Every person who gets a governmental subsidy to buy their insurance is not paying for their own insurance. Every person who gets coverage through the major expansion in Medicaid is not paying for their own insurance. So no, it's a lie the every person is only paying for their own insurance. Taxes are meant to pay for governmental services, not passing money to other people.

PLAYER57832 wrote:Oh brother! There is nothing consistant or honest about any of your views. Just face it. Your real objection is you don’t like women taking birth control or getting other services. The rest is just a back-pedaled attempt at justifying your views.


If I didn't like women taking birth control, we wouldn't be using it. I think it's very wise to use birth control....I think it's very unwise to expect someone else to pay for it.

PLAYER57832 wrote:YOU are not paying for my or anyone else’s healthcare. You ARE paying for insurance. The way insurance works is that money gets pooled so that when you really need something incredibly expensive, its there for you. To claim it is somehow “abusive” because you stay healthy is not “free marketism”, its stupidity. Might as well cry because your house didn’t burn down!


Except that I'm paying for my insurance AND providing subsidies for other people to buy insurance. So yes, that IS paying for someone else's healthcare.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:32 pm

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:OH GREAT, eliminate one of the things that makes the bill pay for itself....

Also, you DO realize (no, you don't... because you have denied this in the past ) that this was one way of not passing medical costs onto the rest of us. For someone who goes berserk over the possibility of paying less than a penny for women’s care, you are strangely on the other side of this one!


Considering the bill never paid for itself since it's passing, I don't know how you care about whether or not it's paid for. Furthermore, how does increasing taxes on medical devices lower the prices of health care? Every single business tax is passed on to the consumer or cut from other business spending (this specific one will directly harm medical device R&D).

Typical.. the bill has not been fully implemented, was not projected to pay for itself until a few years after its full implementation, for reasons already discussed and you seem to thing the argument "its not yet paid for" has validity, and further that its just fine that one of the provisions that would add money to the budget was removed.

A cynic might see a pattern there...
Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:If that really were the issue, then your demand would be to insert a co-pay, NOT to demand that employers get the right to choose.


I have demanded that as well.

No, that's a copout. If that is your argument, then that is your ONLY demand... the rest is just garbage or, yes, denying women the right to healthcare coverage.

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:This claim, again! Seriously, you just got through saying that you know its not free….. and now you are claiming that you are paying for “other people’s healthcare!’

No, you pay for your insurance. I pay for my insurance. I realize you like to ignore the purpose of insurance, but stop pretending this is about a crusade of payment instead of just a backdoor attempt to control women’s ability to get care they need.


Every person who gets a governmental subsidy to buy their insurance is not paying for their own insurance. Every person who gets coverage through the major expansion in Medicaid is not paying for their own insurance. So no, it's a lie the every person is only paying for their own insurance. Taxes are meant to pay for governmental services, not passing money to other people.

No dice. The debate here is specifically over women’s health care, and whether employers can select this specific coverage to exclude, not providing care for the indigent. That is a different issue.

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:Oh brother! There is nothing consistant or honest about any of your views. Just face it. Your real objection is you don’t like women taking birth control or getting other services. The rest is just a back-pedaled attempt at justifying your views.


If I didn't like women taking birth control, we wouldn't be using it. I think it's very wise to use birth control....I think it's very unwise to expect someone else to pay for it.
No, but go on trying to convince yourself that.

You oppose this because of misguided ideas about birth control and sex, not to mention women’s health. Several folks have tried to educate you, but you prefer ignorance.

However your desire to remain ignorant does not translate into a right to tell people outside of your immediate family what medication they should and should not have.

And again, “paying for other people’s issues” is precisely what insurance is about. I don’t see you raising objections to paying for people’s insulin. Same principle.

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:YOU are not paying for my or anyone else’s healthcare. You ARE paying for insurance. The way insurance works is that money gets pooled so that when you really need something incredibly expensive, its there for you. To claim it is somehow “abusive” because you stay healthy is not “free marketism”, its stupidity. Might as well cry because your house didn’t burn down!


Except that I'm paying for my insurance AND providing subsidies for other people to buy insurance. So yes, that IS paying for someone else's healthcare.

No, not in this case. You are buying your own insurance. ALL insurance is about “providing subsidies” to people who need more care. You are not paying one iota more because birth control is covered under your policy than if it were not. In fact, there is a good chance that use of birth control is keeping your health care costs down, since raising a baby and taking time off from work cost far more than a few pills (even if the more expensive type) Women who need it, however WILL be paying more. Your argument plain and simply FAILS.

Right now, you and your family are apparently not ones who have a lot of insurance claims. You can sulk and continue to pretend this is some big plot or you can be thankful that you have your health AND that should you get sick or seriously injured, the insurance will still be there…

OH, yeah, and while you are about it, (heaven forbid, but..) if you happen to have a disabled child or get into a serious accident, then you and your family will continue to receive coverage under your insurance plan, which they would not if the prior rules had remained in force.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Night Strike on Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:44 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:However your desire to remain ignorant does not translate into a right to tell people outside of your immediate family what medication they should and should not have.


What person is being denied medication of their choice simply because insurance doesn't pay for it? Is the insurance company or employer blocking them from paying for it out of their own pockets? That's the fundamental question here. If people are not allowed to buy it on their own, then there could be a need for governmental intervention. Every other answer is simply using the government to decide who must do the paying. In this case, you want the employer/insurance/government to pay for the medication instead of the user (yourself).
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:00 pm

Night Strike wrote:
PLAYER57832 wrote:However your desire to remain ignorant does not translate into a right to tell people outside of your immediate family what medication they should and should not have.


What person is being denied medication of their choice simply because insurance doesn't pay for it

First, they are being denied a service that rightfully, that under any other employer would be paid for. Even if not flat out denied, saying that it is perfectly OK to expect women to pay a minimum of $100 up to over a thousand just becuase their employer wants to "take a stand" and that they have no reason to object is idiotic.

Second, many families are barely getting by on their incomes. If they have to shell out for all the women's health services not covered under this (and don't delude yourself into the idea that it is just birth control being eliminated), then yes, they will often just not use it.

Thirdly, your whole assumption that this is somehow a subsidy you are paying is just plain wrong. The REAL truth is that insurance companies provide this because it reduces their costs, not adds to it. By rights, any employer denying this should be charged an extra tax to pay for the extra children's health care costs and pregnancy costs that will arise.

Finally, there is the basic principle. Coverage is offered or denied based on formula insurance companies use that get into both effectiveness and cost of various things. I don't agree that this is a great system, BUT if employers are allowed to just "opt out" on their own, then it leaves the door open for employers to just "opt out" of any kind of medical coverage. Jehovah's witnesses can deny coverage for blood transfusions, etc.

Night Strike wrote: Is the insurance company or employer blocking them from paying for it out of their own pockets? That's the fundamental question here. If people are not allowed to buy it on their own, then there could be a need for governmental intervention.
No, its not the “fundamental question”, its not even the question at all. The point is that women ARE PAYING for insurance and need this coverage, but are now being told by some employers to pay extra because the employer doesn’t happen to agree with these women’s healthcare choices. It just is not the employer’s place to have ANY say in that.

This is not about the government, except that the government is saying to employers that if they provide insurance, it must meet certain standards. This coverage is one of those standards.



Night Strike wrote: In this case, you want the employer/insurance/government to pay for the medication instead of the user (yourself).

No more than saying I want the insurance to pay for a cast on my son’s arm if he breaks it.
Again, that is how insurance works. The idea that this gets to be an exception is the issue.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Night Strike on Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:30 am

Player, what gives you the right to dictate what product a private business provides? If you don't like that product, you go shop somewhere else. Instead, you use the government to dictate that other businesses provide you with what you want. There is no freedom of choice with you.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:21 am

Night Strike wrote:Player, what gives you the right to dictate what product a private business provides? If you don't like that product, you go shop somewhere else. Instead, you use the government to dictate that other businesses provide you with what you want. There is no freedom of choice with you.

Are you truly serious!
Healthcare is not an optional product. Health insurance is not an optional product. The means of delivery of health insurance at this time is through people's employers or the government. It is the government's role to ensure that PEOPLE, not private business interests are protected. Businesses are protected in that they are extensions of private people, but are protected only to the extent they do not seriously impinge upon people's lives and safety.

This falls under that mandate.

Besides, this is about targeting women's health specifically, not general mandates. We all know you want to do away with government. You are under the illusion that simply letting business decide how to run the world will function. We get that. Its a very stupid position, but it is your position. However, to target women's health specifically is the issue here.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby crispybits on Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:46 am

NS, imagine around 30 years ago, when people believed that HIV/AIDS was a "gay disease", someone advocating that health insurance providers should be allowed to deny care to sufferers of that disease because "gayness" was their choice and contracting the disease came from actions they voluntarily took part in, and they were able to pay for treatments for that disease out of their own pocket if they wished. It's perfectly analogous with your position here.

Or that if someone shoots themself in the foot by accident on a hunting trip the treatement should be paid for out of their own pocket rather than from a health insurance policy that they have?

There is a case that many of the illnesses and injuries in modern society are in some way at least partly self-inflicted. We all take calculated risks every day to be part of society, driving cars, going into rooms where someone may have a contagious disease or there may be an unknown hazard in the environment. In part almost anything that can go wrong with our health can be traced back to a decision we made voluntarily to participate in an activity.

Health insurance isn't payment for the services provided by hospitals and clinics. It's payment into a pool of money that then provides healthcare to all of the policy holders as and when it is necessary. It doesn't make a difference if the injury/sickness is self inflicted or not, if you have an injury or sickness and you need treatment, you receive it under the terms of the policy. You are not paying for anyone else's treatment, you are paying for your treatment should you require it. Why not make a similar argument about home insurance, I mean why should you pay for repairs to the home of someone who forgot a pan of oil on the cooker and burned the house down? Why should you pay for repairs to a mosque or synagogue if you don't believe in their religion? It's nonsense.

The ethical considerations of which treatments are offered and performed are down to doctors and patients, not insurance companies or third parties that provide the policy as compensation for work performed.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby Night Strike on Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:54 pm

PLAYER57832 wrote:Besides, this is about targeting women's health specifically, not general mandates. We all know you want to do away with government. You are under the illusion that simply letting business decide how to run the world will function. We get that. Its a very stupid position, but it is your position. However, to target women's health specifically is the issue here.


Again, you fail to understand anything I post about. I have never once said I want to do away with government. In fact, I have clearly stated that I want a government that actually follows to the letter the Constitution instead of passing every single mandate and regulation that they want to on whatever whim they wish. And this only applies to women's health in the fact that the government is now mandating coverage of controversial medicines without the recipient even paying a dime for it. If you REALLY cared about people getting equal treatments, you'd be mandating that every insurance policy pays for every single medicine on the market. But you aren't. All you're mandating are the medicines that you don't want to pay for yourself. It's the ultimate example of greed, yet you're too blinded to see it.

crispybits wrote:Why not make a similar argument about home insurance,


Because home insurance isn't mandated simply because a person is alive.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby jj3044 on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:13 pm


I just read most of the first link you put up there and I have concerns.

The purpose of insurance, of any kind, is to spread out the cost of risk; not to cover every undesirable and/or planned incident. Auto insurance covers the costs incurred from having a collision, not oil changes or flat tires. Home-owner's insurance pays for the loss of your residence to fire or other catastrophic events, not to fix peeling paint. Likewise, health insurance's proper role in our lives is to cover catastrophic and unpredictable events, like cancer. It is not intended to cover minor or planned events like doctor's visits, checkups, or prescriptions. If you want to pay a third-party to turn around and pay your doctor for you, of course it's going to be not only more expensive than insurance, but more expensive than just paying for these things yourself.

If health insurance turned into catastrophic-only insurance, our population would become much less healthier, because no one would go to the doctor to get their age/gender specific screenings, as it would cost several hundred dollars. There would then be significantly higher rates of otherwise preventable diseases, which are dozens of times more costly to treat when caught late compared to early detection and intervention. This approach would lower healthcare costs in the short term, but INCREASE costs and rate of disease in the long term.

Loosen or eliminate licensing restrictions for providers. Just as you do your research before choosing an auto mechanic, or any other provider, so would be the case with a health care provider. There is no need to artificially restrict the supply of providers, which necessarily raises costs, when people can use consumer reports, private certifications, referrals from friends, or any number of resources in order to find a qualified provider.

So, someone can just up and read a physiology and pharmacology book and start treating patients? As long as you have a good bedside manner people will refer you? Is this guy kidding?!?!

And lastly, charities can and will take care of those in need (12). It should be noted that the number of people unable to afford health care would plummet once the above measures were put into place.

Again, costs and disease prevalence would increase dramatically in the long term, as this does not support PREVENTION of disease. Having insurance cover preventive services and offering incentives to have people get those age/gender specific screenings is the #1 way to improve outcomes and make our population healthier, which will lower costs int he long run.
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Re: Liberty VS ObamaCare: Back to Supreme Court

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:19 pm

jj3044 wrote:

I just read most of the first link you put up there and I have concerns.

The purpose of insurance, of any kind, is to spread out the cost of risk; not to cover every undesirable and/or planned incident. Auto insurance covers the costs incurred from having a collision, not oil changes or flat tires. Home-owner's insurance pays for the loss of your residence to fire or other catastrophic events, not to fix peeling paint. Likewise, health insurance's proper role in our lives is to cover catastrophic and unpredictable events, like cancer. It is not intended to cover minor or planned events like doctor's visits, checkups, or prescriptions. If you want to pay a third-party to turn around and pay your doctor for you, of course it's going to be not only more expensive than insurance, but more expensive than just paying for these things yourself.

If health insurance turned into catastrophic-only insurance, our population would become much less healthier, because no one would go to the doctor to get their age/gender specific screenings, as it would cost several hundred dollars. There would then be significantly higher rates of otherwise preventable diseases, which are dozens of times more costly to treat when caught late compared to early detection and intervention. This approach would lower healthcare costs in the short term, but INCREASE costs and rate of disease in the long term.

Loosen or eliminate licensing restrictions for providers. Just as you do your research before choosing an auto mechanic, or any other provider, so would be the case with a health care provider. There is no need to artificially restrict the supply of providers, which necessarily raises costs, when people can use consumer reports, private certifications, referrals from friends, or any number of resources in order to find a qualified provider.

So, someone can just up and read a physiology and pharmacology book and start treating patients? As long as you have a good bedside manner people will refer you? Is this guy kidding?!?!


Licensing is monopolized by the medical profession. This began in the 1910s to counteract doctors who offered their services to the members of mutual aid societies at significantly lower prices. The established professionals did not like this competition, so they pleaded with their State governments to establish licensing procedures, thus granting them the monopoly over who would become a doctor.
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