ObamaCare - "Give up your phone to get it!!!"

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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Phatscotty on Thu May 16, 2013 9:39 pm

ooge wrote:you all do realize that the growth of health care costs over the past four years is the slowest it has been in over fifty years.


mm hmm...

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Re: ObamaCare

Postby ooge on Thu May 16, 2013 9:55 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
ooge wrote:you all do realize that the growth of health care costs over the past four years is the slowest it has been in over fifty years.


mm hmm...

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http://kff.org/health-costs/issue-brief ... pending-2/ for those interested in facts.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Night Strike on Thu May 16, 2013 10:47 pm

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Re: ObamaCare

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu May 16, 2013 11:18 pm

Night Strike wrote:The price tag of Obamacare has doubled

I'm peeing my monkey pants all over the place.


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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Woodruff on Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:16 pm

This isn't an issue of ObamaCare (as it was essentially already the case before ObamaCare), but I didn't have a more appropriate thread to put this into and I didn't feel like starting a new one knowing it would just devolve into an ObamaCare thread anyway:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/health/colonoscopies-explain-why-us-leads-the-world-in-health-expenditures.html?hp&_r=4&
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby waauw on Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:43 pm

I got a question. Does Obama go to the big farmaceutical companies and to the hospitals to force them to lower their prices? Because this is something very important if you wanna install a system similar to the european health care system. If you don't do this when having an extensive health care system, it'll be like throwing a free party of taxpayer income to those big businesses.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:15 pm

waauw wrote:I got a question. Does Obama go to the big farmaceutical companies and to the hospitals to force them to lower their prices? Because this is something very important if you wanna install a system similar to the european health care system. If you don't do this when having an extensive health care system, it'll be like throwing a free party of taxpayer income to those big businesses.

Sort of. There are provisions that allow some negotiation, but our system has an entirely different basis.

A big issue is research.
A lot of US medical research is government funded, FAR more than a lot of people realize. This generally falls under the "health and welfare" clause, and also the old "get it done" mentality, particularly in the 50's and 60's, but carried forward in a distorted fashion.
Most people are fully in support of research that might cure diabetes, cancer, birth defects, etc., or have been up until very recently. So the idea of the government funding all that was never terribly objectionable. However, all government data and research is public. Not necessarily in its "raw", uncensored form, particularly when it came to medical research and personal data. (but also in any kind of raw research, not so much to protect privacy, but because raw data needs to be put into context to be understood -- you have to know not just the data, but how it was taken, why and exactly what parameters were set, etc.). Anyway, medical research was deemed "too important" to "just keep". It needed to be "used", was the idea, so the government was mandated to give the research away to the company that was doing the closest kind of work. It is that company and not the US government, then that gets the patent and that then can sell the product or information as its own. NO credit need ever be given to the taxpayers who funded the research through the government.

All of this has resulted in a lot of wonderful advances and achievements, but it has also created very, very heavily skewed system. Taxpayers pay for the research. The research is available because of all the money they put forward, but then the taxpayers get billed for the actual use of the research at a very high rate. The government very much favors specific companies who then are able to have a huge edge. Moreover, they get to keep their patents, no matter who funded the research initially.

We wind up paying over and over for the same stuff. Worse, we buy healthcare insurance that also must make a profit. To make that profit, the companies use all sorts of complex formula that really just mean they will insure the healthy and do whatever they can to drop the rest. That last part is the only part that has changed under Obamacare. Even in that, it does look as though it might actually stem the cost increases to a point, but the irony is that the attack is not "we did not go far enough, we need to restart and do a good job", its"Obamacare is failing". Its failing because it was designed to profit big business and not the American people.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:31 pm

waauw wrote:I got a question. Does Obama go to the big farmaceutical companies and to the hospitals to force them to lower their prices? Because this is something very important if you wanna install a system similar to the european health care system. If you don't do this when having an extensive health care system, it'll be like throwing a free party of taxpayer income to those big businesses.


Who's going to pay for that?

One more thing, is there anyway the government or a dictator can force drugs companies and hospitals to cut prices, without also slashing the price of tuition for doctors and pharmaceutical students? How can they slash those prices without slashed all the other students tuition prices, and then what about the teachers salaries?

There is one way this can happen, and that is for the government to STEP OUT of healthcare. The cost of regulations, frivolous law suits and the resulting skyrocketing in doctors insurance rates is what has driven healthcare right out of accessibility.

Already, doctors and hospitals around my country are dropping out of the government subsidized healthcare system, and publishing their "new"/real prices online. Result: drastically lower prices. I've long held that having health insurance (with some exceptions) is mostly just a green light for the healthcare providers to run up the bill. Insurance perceptions are all the same. We all feel like we are being ripped off by them, so we feel justified in ringing up the bill, getting the biggest estimate on our damaged car, getting the cash, then bringing the car to a cheaper repair shop. Hospitals and other areas of healthcare operate the same way.

South Portland doctor stops accepting insurance, posts prices online
SOUTH PORTLAND, Maine — Dr. Michael Ciampi took a step this spring that many of his fellow physicians would describe as radical.

The family physician stopped accepting all forms of health insurance. In early 2013, Ciampi sent a letter to his patients informing them that he would no longer accept any kind of health coverage, both private and government-sponsored. Given that he was now asking patients to pay for his services out of pocket, he posted his prices on the practice’s website.

The change took effect April 1.

Read: Medicare reveals hospitals’ prices for first time

“It’s been almost unanimous that patients have expressed understanding at why I’m doing what I’m doing, although I’ve had many people leave the practice because they want to be covered by insurance, which is understandable,” Ciampi said.

Before the switch, Ciampi had about 2,000 patients. He lost several hundred, he said. Some patients with health coverage, faced with having to seek reimbursement themselves rather than through his office, bristled at the paperwork burden.

But the decision to do away with insurance allows Ciampi to practice medicine the way he sees fit, he said. Insurance companies no longer dictate how much he charges. He can offer discounts to patients struggling with their medical bills. He can make house calls.

I’m freed up to do what I think is right for the patients,” Ciampi said. “If I’m providing them a service that they value, they can pay me, and we cut the insurance out as the middleman and cut out a lot of the expense.”

Read: How much for joints, heart attack or pneumonia? Compare how Maine hospitals charge for common services

Ciampi expects more doctors will follow suit. Some may choose to run “concierge practices” in which patients pay to keep a doctor on retainer, he said.

Gordon Smith, a spokesman for the Maine Medical Association, wasn’t so sure, saying most patients either want to use the insurance they pay for or need to rely on Medicare and Medicaid.

Even with the loss of some patients, Ciampi expects his practice to perform just as well financially, if not better, than before he ditched insurance. The new approach will likely attract new patients who are self-employed, lack insurance or have high-deductible plans, he said, because Ciampi has slashed his prices.

“I’ve been able to cut my prices in half because my overhead will be so much less,” he said.

Read: Maine hospital charges insurance company colluded with competitor

Before, Ciampi charged $160 for an office visit with an existing patient facing one or more complicated health problems. Now, he charges $75.

Patients with an earache or strep throat can spend $300 at their local hospital emergency room, or promptly get an appointment at his office and pay $50, he said.

Ciampi collects payment at the end of the visit, freeing him of the time and costs associated with sending bills, he said.

That time is crucial to Ciampi. When his patients come to his office, they see him, not a physician’s assistant or a nurse practitioner, he said.

“If more doctors were able to do this, that would be real health care reform,” he said. “That’s when we’d see the cost of medicine truly go down.”


Read: With high deductible health plans, it pays to shop around for care
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Woodruff on Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:42 pm

waauw wrote:I got a question. Does Obama go to the big farmaceutical companies and to the hospitals to force them to lower their prices? Because this is something very important if you wanna install a system similar to the european health care system. If you don't do this when having an extensive health care system, it'll be like throwing a free party of taxpayer income to those big businesses.


You're absolutely right. Unfortunately, the failure of ObamaCare is that it doesn't particularly do this, no. In fact, it really is a matter of throwing a big party for big business. Originally, it wasn't going to be that way, but the big business lobbyists for Congress managed to get it there.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Woodruff on Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:45 pm

Phatscotty wrote:The cost of regulations


Those damn regulations...if only they weren't in the way, we could have wonderful health care! That actually makes sense to you?

Phatscotty wrote:frivolous law suits


If a lawsuit is frivolous, does it actually cost much of anything? I would suggest that it does not. Lawyers aren't stupid.

Phatscotty wrote:and the resulting skyrocketing in doctors insurance rates is what has driven healthcare right out of accessibility.


That really doesn't explain why medical care in the United States costs so much more than what it is around the world, no.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Phatscotty on Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:49 pm

Seriously. Listen to what they used to say, listen to their old stories and promises.

Last edited by Phatscotty on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:45 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Woodruff on Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:52 pm

Phatscotty wrote:LIES!

[youtube]Another Dipshit Youtube Video Here[/youtube]


Do you own any actual opinions yourself, Phatscotty?
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:54 pm

Woodruff wrote:
waauw wrote:I got a question. Does Obama go to the big farmaceutical companies and to the hospitals to force them to lower their prices? Because this is something very important if you wanna install a system similar to the european health care system. If you don't do this when having an extensive health care system, it'll be like throwing a free party of taxpayer income to those big businesses.


You're absolutely right. Unfortunately, the failure of ObamaCare is that it doesn't particularly do this, no. In fact, it really is a matter of throwing a big party for big business. Originally, it wasn't going to be that way, but the big business lobbyists for Congress managed to get it there.


How do you know? You seem to be implying that originally the politicians had no interest in coordinating with their campaign contributors and electorate groups. Somehow the politicians were being guided selflessly toward the right goal of this ideal government-provided healthcare/health insurance program...
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Woodruff on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:14 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
waauw wrote:I got a question. Does Obama go to the big farmaceutical companies and to the hospitals to force them to lower their prices? Because this is something very important if you wanna install a system similar to the european health care system. If you don't do this when having an extensive health care system, it'll be like throwing a free party of taxpayer income to those big businesses.


You're absolutely right. Unfortunately, the failure of ObamaCare is that it doesn't particularly do this, no. In fact, it really is a matter of throwing a big party for big business. Originally, it wasn't going to be that way, but the big business lobbyists for Congress managed to get it there.


How do you know? You seem to be implying that originally the politicians had no interest in coordinating with their campaign contributors and electorate groups. Somehow the politicians were being guided selflessly toward the right goal of this ideal government-provided healthcare/health insurance program...


I don't believe it was necessarily selfless, no. But I saw the drafts that were put out to the public back then, and they were significantly different than how ObamaCare ended up.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby ooge on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:55 pm

so the Nixon administration did a study on pornography to back up their beliefs that it had a negative effect on society,when the study came back with information not backing their beliefs,they tossed the study out.When the Bush administration did a study on heath care costs and lawsuits,the results that came back were at most 3% of costs. This failed to back up their narrative as well.But you will have to go to websites other than "the Blaze" "daily caller" or "Breitbart" to be aware of this.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:45 pm

Woodruff wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
waauw wrote:I got a question. Does Obama go to the big farmaceutical companies and to the hospitals to force them to lower their prices? Because this is something very important if you wanna install a system similar to the european health care system. If you don't do this when having an extensive health care system, it'll be like throwing a free party of taxpayer income to those big businesses.


You're absolutely right. Unfortunately, the failure of ObamaCare is that it doesn't particularly do this, no. In fact, it really is a matter of throwing a big party for big business. Originally, it wasn't going to be that way, but the big business lobbyists for Congress managed to get it there.


How do you know? You seem to be implying that originally the politicians had no interest in coordinating with their campaign contributors and electorate groups. Somehow the politicians were being guided selflessly toward the right goal of this ideal government-provided healthcare/health insurance program...


I don't believe it was necessarily selfless, no. But I saw the drafts that were put out to the public back then, and they were significantly different than how ObamaCare ended up.


So what would change a draft?

Special interests/rent-seekers of the original draftees.
Special interests/rent-seekers of later draftees.
The original draftees (politicians).
Later draftees (politicians).

You may be placing too much blame on 'big business' and 'lobbyists'. I can easily see why the original draft would change in order to accommodate later demands from other politicians. It's log-rolling, or mutual back-scratching.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Woodruff on Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:18 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
waauw wrote:I got a question. Does Obama go to the big farmaceutical companies and to the hospitals to force them to lower their prices? Because this is something very important if you wanna install a system similar to the european health care system. If you don't do this when having an extensive health care system, it'll be like throwing a free party of taxpayer income to those big businesses.


You're absolutely right. Unfortunately, the failure of ObamaCare is that it doesn't particularly do this, no. In fact, it really is a matter of throwing a big party for big business. Originally, it wasn't going to be that way, but the big business lobbyists for Congress managed to get it there.


How do you know? You seem to be implying that originally the politicians had no interest in coordinating with their campaign contributors and electorate groups. Somehow the politicians were being guided selflessly toward the right goal of this ideal government-provided healthcare/health insurance program...


I don't believe it was necessarily selfless, no. But I saw the drafts that were put out to the public back then, and they were significantly different than how ObamaCare ended up.


So what would change a draft?

Special interests/rent-seekers of the original draftees.
Special interests/rent-seekers of later draftees.
The original draftees (politicians).
Later draftees (politicians).

You may be placing too much blame on 'big business' and 'lobbyists'. I can easily see why the original draft would change in order to accommodate later demands from other politicians. It's log-rolling, or mutual back-scratching.


I wouldn't disagree with the idea that there was mutual back-scratching going on in regards to it, sure. There's no question in my mind though that some of that would also have come about due to the lobbying of business interests toward those politicians, as well. The key for me is...who benefitted most by the changes? Big insurance...it's not hard to see that.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby BigBallinStalin on Tue Jun 04, 2013 4:16 pm

Okay, just seeing where you fit the political influence into this picture.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Night Strike on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:33 am

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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:10 am



I certainly don't support this situation. But I'm curious what you believe would have happened in this situation prior to ObamaCare.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:46 am

Even further description of what the future will look like under ObamaCare!:

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/10/05/966121/obamacare-birth-control-abortion/?mobile=nc

Isn't that awful!
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby jj3044 on Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:47 pm

Woodruff wrote:
waauw wrote:I got a question. Does Obama go to the big farmaceutical companies and to the hospitals to force them to lower their prices? Because this is something very important if you wanna install a system similar to the european health care system. If you don't do this when having an extensive health care system, it'll be like throwing a free party of taxpayer income to those big businesses.


You're absolutely right. Unfortunately, the failure of ObamaCare is that it doesn't particularly do this, no. In fact, it really is a matter of throwing a big party for big business. Originally, it wasn't going to be that way, but the big business lobbyists for Congress managed to get it there.

Then you guys haven't heard of some of the provisions in the law such as the implementation of ACO's (Accountable Care Organizations).

"Accountable Care Organizations (ACOs) are groups of doctors, hospitals, and other health care providers, who come together voluntarily to give coordinated high quality care to their Medicare patients.

The goal of coordinated care is to ensure that patients, especially the chronically ill, get the right care at the right time, while avoiding unnecessary duplication of services and preventing medical errors.

When an ACO succeeds both in both delivering high-quality care and spending health care dollars more wisely, it will share in the savings it achieves for the Medicare program."

There are plenty of good things in the law that will reduce cost and improve outcomes, if you choose to LOOK for them.
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Woodruff on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:55 pm

jj3044 wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
waauw wrote:I got a question. Does Obama go to the big farmaceutical companies and to the hospitals to force them to lower their prices? Because this is something very important if you wanna install a system similar to the european health care system. If you don't do this when having an extensive health care system, it'll be like throwing a free party of taxpayer income to those big businesses.


You're absolutely right. Unfortunately, the failure of ObamaCare is that it doesn't particularly do this, no. In fact, it really is a matter of throwing a big party for big business. Originally, it wasn't going to be that way, but the big business lobbyists for Congress managed to get it there.


Then you guys haven't heard of some of the provisions in the law such as the implementation of ACO's (Accountable Care Organizations).

"Accountable Care Organizations (ACOs) are groups of doctors, hospitals, and other health care providers, who come together voluntarily to give coordinated high quality care to their Medicare patients.

The goal of coordinated care is to ensure that patients, especially the chronically ill, get the right care at the right time, while avoiding unnecessary duplication of services and preventing medical errors.

When an ACO succeeds both in both delivering high-quality care and spending health care dollars more wisely, it will share in the savings it achieves for the Medicare program."

There are plenty of good things in the law that will reduce cost and improve outcomes, if you choose to LOOK for them.


You seem to be under a very misguided impression of my understanding of this law. I've looked into it a GREAT deal, as you'd know if you have read this thread for any amount of time. I'm actually pretty lukewarm on the law overall...I think there are important things done in it and I think there are things done in it that are thoroughly useless and did nothing to improve the situation at all.

Frankly, nothing that you stated in this post is a refutation of my point at all as regards the insurance industry (my reference to big business, in this particular case).
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Night Strike on Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:55 am

Woodruff wrote:


I certainly don't support this situation. But I'm curious what you believe would have happened in this situation prior to ObamaCare.


Actually, I think this specific example has nothing to do with Obamacare. The reason I brought it up though is because this process will be what ends up happening when the government runs health care. They'll get to decide whether or not a person is allowed to get a procedure rather than the doctor and patient. At that point, the only recourse would be to either be someone powerful or to use the media to help plead your case. Government shouldn't be involved in deciding who should or should not be eligible for certain transplants or any other medical treatment. Why is the government determining transplant eligibility and not the doctors?
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Re: ObamaCare

Postby Woodruff on Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:45 am

Night Strike wrote:
Woodruff wrote:


I certainly don't support this situation. But I'm curious what you believe would have happened in this situation prior to ObamaCare.


Actually, I think this specific example has nothing to do with Obamacare. The reason I brought it up though is because this process will be what ends up happening when the government runs health care.


This process is really little different than happened before. The only difference is that prior to this, insurance companies were making these decisions. I'm going to be honest with you...as little faith as I have in the government making these sorts of decisions, I have even less faith in someone making decisions when THEIR BOTTOM LINE is involved. So the government making the decision is a step up, in my opinion, to profits guiding the decision.

Night Strike wrote:They'll get to decide whether or not a person is allowed to get a procedure rather than the doctor and patient. At that point, the only recourse would be to either be someone powerful or to use the media to help plead your case. Government shouldn't be involved in deciding who should or should not be eligible for certain transplants or any other medical treatment. Why is the government determining transplant eligibility and not the doctors?


Why is an insurance company's bottom line what decides who should or should not be eligible for certain transplants or any other medical treatment? How is that a better way to decide?
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