Bush Administration is trying to be "Big Brother"

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Bush Administration is trying to be "Big Brother"

Postby cowshrptrn on Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:19 pm

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/15/opinion/edspeech.php

Essentially: ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) got leaked documents that the bush administration now wants back, if these documents aren't a matter of civil defense liek the ACLU claims, then the Bush Administration is merely rying to avoid embarassment by covering up the leak. If this goes through the precedent it sets will allow for government censorship of the press!
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Postby qeee1 on Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:26 pm

Bump for others thoughts...
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Postby reverend_kyle on Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:28 pm

DUH forum>>>
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Postby vtmarik on Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:34 pm

If the document's release isn't a matter of national security, why haven't they defied the Judge's order? Surely then they could countersue and win.
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Postby Evil Semp on Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:01 pm

How did the ACLU get the documents? "Leaked" makes me think that they were taken without proper authority as in stolen. I am sure the person who gave the ACLU the documents in the first place knows what information they contain, so the ACLU could try to optain the documents legaly through the Freedom of Information Act.

And I don't know if I want the ACLU deciding what is a "legitimate national defense issue". After all didn't Geraldo Rivera give the grid coordinates of a military unit a few years ago because he didn't think it was important. My point is what one person thinks is a "legitimate national defense issue" someone else might not.

Then again this is just my opinion which has been called "extraneous interpretations are merely obnoxious spam" in the past.
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Postby cowshrptrn on Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:43 pm

the fact that this information could be an embarassment to the administration reallly makes the whole thing suspicious. Also, even the judges are questioning whether the government should be allowed to sieze the documents, so you know its not something that is blatantly dangerous.
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Postby Evil Semp on Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:52 pm

My question is why didn't they try to aquire the information legaly? Right now I don't care if it is embarassing. Was the person who gave it to the ACLU in a position to legaly give it to them?

It doesn't matter if it is an embarassment to the government if a law was broken.
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Postby cowshrptrn on Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:54 pm

Internal memos are leaked all the time. The people leaking them are possibly under the protection of whistle blower protection laws, which i assume is the case since the courts are contemplating allowing them to keep the documents.

Also, the government destroyed all of its copies of the document, so they're cleraly jsut trying to cover whatever happened up.
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Postby vtmarik on Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:54 pm

Evil Semp wrote:My question is why didn't they try to aquire the information legaly? Right now I don't care if it is embarassing. Was the person who gave it to the ACLU in a position to legaly give it to them?

It doesn't matter if it is an embarassment to the government if a law was broken.


Well, they haven't been arrested for harboring a traitor so I suppose it isn't illegal in the classic sense.

But then again, all the Administration has to do these days is say "Terror suspect" and they can do whatever they want.
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Postby cowshrptrn on Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:56 pm

The main issue here is really, can the government use subpoenas to cover up leaks, i'm not an expert on law in any way, but this woudl probably grant the government power to prevent anyone from getting egg on their face
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Postby Evil Semp on Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:58 pm

Aren't whistle blower protection laws there to protect someone who turned in a company that was breaking the law?

Just because someone wasn't arrested for being a traitor doesn't make it legal.

Like I said before, why can't or didn't they just go through the Freedom of Information Act?
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Postby Ectomancer on Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:39 pm

Evil Semp wrote:Aren't whistle blower protection laws there to protect someone who turned in a company that was breaking the law?

Just because someone wasn't arrested for being a traitor doesn't make it legal.

Like I said before, why can't or didn't they just go through the Freedom of Information Act?


Why do you keep coming back to this same question? You have to know about the existence of a document in order to request it. They became aware of it because it was leaked. They have it now, so why do they need to request it? The description of it is that it is a policy document. You couldnt get it from the government now according to the article because all other copies have been destroyed.
Besides, that isnt even really the point the article was making. If you are focused on this document you are missing the big picture of the government attempting to use subpoenas in a manner that has never been done before and may be unconstitutional. The current administration has made a habit of stretching constitutional law to the breaking point. Ordinarily I might give the benefit of the doubt to the administration, however their track record has me believing that they need to be watched as they have no compunction about violating citizens rights if it suits them to do so.
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Postby vtmarik on Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:00 pm

Evil Semp wrote:Aren't whistle blower protection laws there to protect someone who turned in a company that was breaking the law?

Just because someone wasn't arrested for being a traitor doesn't make it legal.

Like I said before, why can't or didn't they just go through the Freedom of Information Act?


The only problem with FOIA is that the government body that you are requesting the document form either has to declassify whatever it is, redact whatever is classified, and can outright deny requests under the guise of national security, regardless on whether or not that's true. The details of Watergate would've been declared as such if Woodward and Bernstein filed an FOIA request.
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Postby Skittlesandmnms on Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:43 am

Our country sort of sucks sometimes...

If I didn't want to be an F-22 pilot... I would move to Canada as soon as I'm 18... but the USAF beckons me...
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Postby P Gizzle on Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:12 pm

how bout moving to Mexico, and then tell us that the US sucks.


sorry, just don't like it when people say our country "sucks" when u could go to China, or Mexico, or Iraq, or Cambodia, and see which country "sucks"


ok, my rant is over
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