Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

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Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby GoranZ on Wed May 16, 2012 10:47 pm

Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners in tournament organizing

Description:
Most of the tournament organizers who are beginners in tournament organizing can underestimate the amount of work that needs to be done during the organizing of tournament and with that the quality of the tournament will drop due to mistakes or insufficient data etc. So I'm proposing some limitations in the amount of games that will be played in the tournament and the amount of players that can participate.
Limitations will only apply for first and second tournament.

Specifics/Details:
  • limit the number of games in one tournament to 64*
  • limit the number of teams(players for non team tournament) to 16*
*proposed numbers are example, they can be changed

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • simplifying the process of tournament organizing
  • chances for underestimating of the amount of work needed to organize a tournament will be reduced
  • tournament organizers will have more time to provide accurate data of what is going on in the current round
  • reduction of potential mistakes and increased chance of finding potential problems
  • efficient tournaments(time, games...)
  • happier tournament players and tournament organizers
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby chapcrap on Wed May 16, 2012 11:02 pm

I think that in some cases this would be a very good idea, but some TOs are capable of much more for a first time tournament. For instance, for my first tournament, I ran a sports league that had 32 players and ~275 games.

There is an automatic PM that is sent out when a TO gets privileges that explains a lot. And tells to ask for help if they need it. I know I have helped quite a few new TOs with everything.

I like the spirit of the suggestion, but I think that there isn't a large issue where this is problem. However, I do think that some kind of mentoring program would be good for first time TOs. This was done as a trial by the TO Usergroup in the past and has been discussed again. Perhaps something like that again would be a good thing for new TOs to utilize.
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby greenoaks on Thu May 17, 2012 12:37 am

i have always encouraged new TO's to start small with a 16 player single elimination bracket. that's 15 games and usually only a few weeks long.

however i don't think a structure that forces new TO's to host only small tournaments should be implemented.

tournament players as a whole are a savy bunch and tend to avoid new TO's with overly ambitious tournaments. the Abandoned subforum is proof of that.
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby GoranZ on Thu May 17, 2012 1:27 am

chapcrap wrote:For instance, for my first tournament, I ran a sports league that had 32 players and ~275 games.


No wonder you are tournament director now lol

greenoaks wrote:tournament players as a whole are a savy bunch and tend to avoid new TO's with overly ambitious tournaments. the Abandoned subforum is proof of that.


First start is very important, and usually with many obstacles. Giving a rule, rather then a guidance can save many abandoned tournaments and will reduce some of the obstacles.
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby Night Strike on Thu May 17, 2012 8:25 am

Currently, most abandoned (rescued) tournaments are from organizers with some or a lot of experience who get tired of the site or have real-life busyness come up.
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby GoranZ on Sun May 20, 2012 10:26 am

Hardly where in RL we can find beginners participating in professional events... For example there is no case where beginner is driving formula 1(give an average driver chance to drive and observe what will happen) or playing in professional football league(mostlikely his team will lose or the player will get a hart attack)...

Currently i participate in 2 tournaments organized by beginners in tournament organizing and I can say that the organization is bellow disastrous. Reason is simple, the tournament are too complicated.

This are the reasons I'm proposing this change. Alternative to not implementing RL rules is drop in CC players(look at the scoreboard, we will get bellow 15K any moment).
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby greenoaks on Sun May 20, 2012 8:29 pm

GoranZ wrote:Currently i participate in 2 tournaments organized by beginners in tournament organizing and I can say that the organization is bellow disastrous. Reason is simple, the tournament are too complicated.

this is a learning experience for you too.

do not join complicated tournaments UNLESS you are familiar with the TO.
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby Night Strike on Sun May 20, 2012 9:28 pm

GoranZ wrote:This are the reasons I'm proposing this change. Alternative to not implementing RL rules is drop in CC players(look at the scoreboard, we will get bellow 15K any moment).


Tournaments, and specifically new organizers, are not why the number of players on the scoreboard is going down.
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby GoranZ on Thu May 24, 2012 9:31 am

Night Strike wrote:Tournaments, and specifically new organizers, are not why the number of players on the scoreboard is going down.


Nope nobody said that new organizers are the reason, they can never be a reason... However current rules are.

Example why I proposed this change is this tournament: viewtopic.php?f=91&t=157760
From ~6 months since the tournament started, the TO hasn't posted in 4 times with intervals bigger then 1 month... its tournament from new TO.
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby Night Strike on Thu May 24, 2012 8:07 pm

GoranZ wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Tournaments, and specifically new organizers, are not why the number of players on the scoreboard is going down.


Nope nobody said that new organizers are the reason, they can never be a reason... However current rules are.

Example why I proposed this change is this tournament: viewtopic.php?f=91&t=157760
From ~6 months since the tournament started, the TO hasn't posted in 4 times with intervals bigger then 1 month... its tournament from new TO.


There are a lot of experienced organizers that don't post in their tournament threads either. It probably just means that the two directors who handle abandoned tournaments should be tighter on their warnings to slacking organizers rather than have us institute new policies that needlessly restrict new organizers.
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby agentcom on Fri May 25, 2012 9:52 am

I agree generally with what I think is the majority here: Join tournaments at your own risk. Don't limit the organizers. I've seen tournaments waiting for players, where the TO says "Why isn't anyone joining?" and the response is "Because this is your first tournament and it's long/complicated." I think the players do a good job of policing themselves, TO's do a good job of knowing their limits. And if not, what's the big deal? It's annoying for a tournament not to finish, but it doesn't really matter.

I've entered 72 (or so) tournaments and I've only had 1 not finish. This doesn't seem to be a big problem.
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby blakebowling on Fri May 25, 2012 10:53 am

As this suggestion is based on tournaments policy, and not website or other functionality.

Moved to Tournaments Discussion.
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby greenoaks on Fri May 25, 2012 7:16 pm

agentcom wrote:I agree generally with what I think is the majority here: Join tournaments at your own risk. Don't limit the organizers. I've seen tournaments waiting for players, where the TO says "Why isn't anyone joining?" and the response is "Because this is your first tournament and it's long/complicated." I think the players do a good job of policing themselves, TO's do a good job of knowing their limits. And if not, what's the big deal? It's annoying for a tournament not to finish, but it doesn't really matter.

I've entered 72 (or so) tournaments and I've only had 1 not finish. This doesn't seem to be a big problem.

and we shouldn't change the policy because of 1 TO
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby agentcom on Sat May 26, 2012 3:08 pm

Or even if it's a couple. I've had one. The OP has had at least one.
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby GoranZ on Wed Oct 03, 2012 5:56 am

Night Strike wrote:There are a lot of experienced organizers that don't post in their tournament threads either. It probably just means that the two directors who handle abandoned tournaments should be tighter on their warnings to slacking organizers rather than have us institute new policies that needlessly restrict new organizers.


Example 1: viewtopic.php?f=91&t=157760
From ~6 months since the tournament started, the TO hasn't posted in 4 times with intervals bigger then 1 month... its tournament from new TO.

Example 2: viewtopic.php?t=175961
The Tournament has just started and the tournament organizer already hasn't posted for more then 1 month.

I'm wondering who is giving permission to these new TO's without pointing them the rules for organizing a tournament? Its obviously that restrictions are required, regardless if someone want or not, or stop giving permissions and medals to TO's that brake the rules.
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby Night Strike on Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:50 pm

GoranZ wrote:
Night Strike wrote:There are a lot of experienced organizers that don't post in their tournament threads either. It probably just means that the two directors who handle abandoned tournaments should be tighter on their warnings to slacking organizers rather than have us institute new policies that needlessly restrict new organizers.


Example 1: viewtopic.php?f=91&t=157760
From ~6 months since the tournament started, the TO hasn't posted in 4 times with intervals bigger then 1 month... its tournament from new TO.

Example 2: viewtopic.php?t=175961
The Tournament has just started and the tournament organizer already hasn't posted for more then 1 month.

I'm wondering who is giving permission to these new TO's without pointing them the rules for organizing a tournament? Its obviously that restrictions are required, regardless if someone want or not, or stop giving permissions and medals to TO's that brake the rules.


There are plenty of experienced organizers that don't do those things either, fyi.
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby 6_roller on Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:39 am

The problem is not the new TO's it's the lack of suport for new TO's.

You're trying to fix the problem by making it less, rather than fixing the root cause.
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby chapcrap on Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:41 am

6_roller wrote:The problem is not the new TO's it's the lack of suport for new TO's.

You're trying to fix the problem by making it less, rather than fixing the root cause.

What support do you think would be good to have that isn't currently in place?
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby 6_roller on Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:54 am

Any!

I got no support as a new TO, and the advice I got from the TD's was rubbish! (which lead to delays in getting people as replacements)

What support do you think new TO's get, as I can confirm that as of April this year, there was none.
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby chapcrap on Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:00 am

6_roller wrote:Any!

I got no support as a new TO, and the advice I got from the TD's was rubbish! (which lead to delays in getting people as replacements)

What support do you think new TO's get, as I can confirm that as of April this year, there was none.

I help and give advice to any new TO that has requested it from me. I don't know what your situation was like, but we have resources in place and multiple people who you can ask for help.

You can check the tournament handbook for most advice... Although, admittedly, it could use updating. However, if you aren't more specific, there's nothing I can say about what you went through.
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Re: Limitations for Tournament Organizers who are beginners

Postby greenoaks on Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:15 am

chapcrap wrote:
6_roller wrote:Any!

I got no support as a new TO, and the advice I got from the TD's was rubbish! (which lead to delays in getting people as replacements)

What support do you think new TO's get, as I can confirm that as of April this year, there was none.

I help and give advice to any new TO that has requested it from me. I don't know what your situation was like, but we have resources in place and multiple people who you can ask for help.

You can check the tournament handbook for most advice... Although, admittedly, it could use updating. However, if you aren't more specific, there's nothing I can say about what you went through.

his first and only tournament was ambitious, vague, confusing and eventually abandoned because not even the TO found it interesting enough to complete it.

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