Tolke and Thunderhue

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Tolke and Thunderhue

Postby Steve The Mighty on Mon May 31, 2010 3:55 pm

Accused:

tokle
thunderhue

The accused are suspected of:

Other:

Game 7051031 is part of a tournement organised by tolke - the rules were quite clear win 2 games to proceed to the next round.

As I had won the first two games - tolke in the game chat conspired publically with thunderhue to throw the 4th game to force a rematch which goes against fair play.

At the point that tolke suggested green threw the game tolke had only 5 regions to my five and thunderhue was clearly the winner but threw the game to allow tolke to win.



Game number(s):

Game 7051031

Comments:

I do not think it a fair reflection on sportsmanship for this to happen and as the Tournement organiser Tolke should have accepted his defeat with grace.
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Re: Tolke and Thunderhue

Postby Masli on Mon May 31, 2010 4:08 pm

you should take this up with 1 of the tournament directors

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Re: Tolke and Thunderhue

Postby Night Strike on Mon May 31, 2010 8:48 pm

Steve The Mighty wrote:Game 7051031 is part of a tournement organised by tolke - the rules were quite clear win 2 games to proceed to the next round.


Actually, the tournament rules state that there are 4 games and the person who wins the most will advance, but in the case of a tie (2-2), the whole round will be replayed. Therefore, when one player chose to convince the other player to throw the game to force a tie, the whole round would get replayed so that both the throwing and the tying player would have a chance to advance. It has been established that throwing single tournament games is allowed when the interests of advancing in the tournament are present, which is what happened in this case and why it will be allowed to stand.

HOWEVER, because the request to throw the game and force a round replay came from the organizer, there are some legitimate doubts cast on the ethics of the organizer. I STRONGLY recommend the organizer voids the tournament game in question and allows Steve The Mighty the place to advance to the next round. Organizers have always been held to a higher standard of play when participating in their own tournaments, and tokle's decision to behave like this harms the reputation of other organizers participating in their own tournaments and GREATLY impacts the views other players have on him. I know I wouldn't want to join one of tokle's tournaments if he behaved this way. It's up to the players to know the rules of the tournament and not for the organizer to explicitly point them out only when it's to their own benefit.

C&A mods, feel free to move this to the Tournament General Info forum (where players should be posting tournament issues so the Directors can see them).
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Re: Tolke and Thunderhue

Postby king achilles on Mon May 31, 2010 9:09 pm

Moved this thread to this Tournaments Forum since this is more of a Tournament Issue that can best be handled by the tournament organizer/s.
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Re: Tolke and Thunderhue

Postby tokle on Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:12 am

Steve the Mighty, I would have appreciated being notified about this post. Is there not some rule that you should notify the accused when you publicly accuse them?

I already told you that I have contacted the Tournament Directors about this issue, and that I am willing abide to any advice they give.

So I will concede, and allow you to go through to the second round.
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Re: Tolke and Thunderhue

Postby thunderhue on Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:03 am

Night Strike wrote:
It has been established that throwing single tournament games is allowed when the interests of advancing in the tournament are present, which is what happened in this case and why it will be allowed to stand.


I know you are affirming that my throwing the game was legitimate, but I am concerned by this statement. Where in the site rules would I have found this information (that throwing a game is or is not allowed)? My decision was based on CC rules and the tournament instructions. I am concerned that there is another guideline ("it has been established") that I could have violated.

Could you provide some clarification? Established where? Are there tournament participation rules that exist apart from the CC rules or those listed in the tournament posting?
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Re: Tolke and Thunderhue

Postby Night Strike on Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:12 am

thunderhue wrote:
Night Strike wrote:
It has been established that throwing single tournament games is allowed when the interests of advancing in the tournament are present, which is what happened in this case and why it will be allowed to stand.


I know you are affirming that my throwing the game was legitimate, but I am concerned by this statement. Where in the site rules would I have found this information (that throwing a game is or is not allowed)? My decision was based on CC rules and the tournament instructions. I am concerned that there is another guideline ("it has been established") that I could have violated.

Could you provide some clarification? Established where? Are there tournament participation rules that exist apart from the CC rules or those listed in the tournament posting?


The "It has been established" comes from precedence from past cases (similar to what you would see in the US Court System). In CC Tournaments, we do NOT promote or encourage the throwing of games because it IS something included in the Unwritten Rules of the site. However, we also are aware that there are certain situations where throwing a game will help a player advance to the next round in a tournament, so we decided in past cases that those players should not be punished by the site simply for trying to make the situation the most advantageous for them to advance in the tournament. It is not encouraged, but it is not punished either.
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Re: Tolke and Thunderhue

Postby thunderhue on Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:28 am

In CC Tournaments, we do NOT promote or encourage the throwing of games because it IS something included in the Unwritten Rules of the site.


I wish I had known that prior to making my decision in the tournament. My conclusion at the time was that throwing the game was a fair option and essentially value neutral.
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Re: Tolke and Thunderhue

Postby Night Strike on Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:32 am

thunderhue wrote:
In CC Tournaments, we do NOT promote or encourage the throwing of games because it IS something included in the Unwritten Rules of the site.


I wish I had known that prior to making my decision in the tournament. My conclusion at the time was that throwing the game was a fair option and essentially value neutral.


In tournaments, like in your case, it is allowed (just not encouraged). In regular public games on the site, it is not allowed.
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Re: Tolke and Thunderhue

Postby tokle on Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:52 pm

Night Strike wrote:
thunderhue wrote:
In CC Tournaments, we do NOT promote or encourage the throwing of games because it IS something included in the Unwritten Rules of the site.


I wish I had known that prior to making my decision in the tournament. My conclusion at the time was that throwing the game was a fair option and essentially value neutral.


In tournaments, like in your case, it is allowed (just not encouraged). In regular public games on the site, it is not allowed.


My reading of the situation was the same as thunderhue's at the time. I didn't consider it such a big deal.
I was wrong, and I do sincerely apologise to everyone involved.
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Re: Tolke and Thunderhue

Postby barterer2002 on Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:24 am

It was neutral to the two of you. It certainly wasn't neutral to Steve.

IMO, if this were a game that occurred on another TO's tournament it would be one thing. For instance, if I had set it up the way it was and the three of you were playing in my tournament then this action would be allowed. The issue here is that tolke is the TO in this one. There is a line when a TO plays in their own tournament that they need to keep behind that other players may cross. It isn't that either of you did anything per se wrong here, rather that the TO is and should be held to a higher standard.

If thunder had come up with the strategy on his own it would also have been OK IMO. Here though the TO told another player how to keep both of them in the tournament
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Re: Tolke and Thunderhue

Postby thunderhue on Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:39 pm

I'm resigned to the outcome of this, but for anyone reading this post in the future, I want to make a point of clarification. Steve said, during the game in game chat, before I ever considered intentionally losing:
I think it goes on the number of games won overall besides which 40 points is a lot to throw away and not a very sportsman like approach but happy either way.

"happy either way" does not sound like someone who would soon after post an accusation of cheating.

If I had known he objected to that outcome, I would not have chosen it.

Ref Game 7051031

My final word: I strongly recommend never intentionally losing, even if your opponents all agree.
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