I had a dream.... about beta (MapMaker Killer series: MMK)

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Is that a good idea?

YES
14
64%
YES but not in beta
2
9%
YES but only for beta
4
18%
NO
2
9%
 
Total votes : 22

Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:17 pm

This is just a quick example
I'll also tell nightstrike to have a look on that thread first to see if everything is correct.

show: example


I'll also add colors and everything needed to make it nicer and also more rules about the tourney.

What could be beautiful is to have a special medal like a MMK medal only available on those tournaments. But if they do, it will be more rules like minimum number of players to obtain medals, and many more...
But I can't do nothing about that, so if the idea come true about those tournaments, maybe one of you (coloured names) could ask for a special medal. ;)
Last edited by DJENRE on Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby MrBenn on Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:43 pm

I know from experience that some tournament organisers do run tournaments on beta maps - to my surprise I actually won one on my England map when it was first launched!

I'm thinking that this conversation might be more appropriate within the tournaments forum... [moved]
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:56 pm

Nooooooooooooooo

DJENRE wrote:First of all, thank you so much, u exactly understand what Im trying to do.
    1) I want the people entering the tourney know why they're playing, and who will be the mapmaker they'll found in finale.
    2) so name of the mapmaker will be in the first lines of the thread in large letters.
    3) and also a biggest feedback from players while games are still beta
    4) When I did that post, I hoped nobody move it into tournament folder. I wanted that idea confirmed by cartographer first.

As many people feel ok about it, I'm going to create a quick example of what could be the thread for those tournament. I'll make it with vietnam cause I already have settings from mapmakers. See ya!


Please mr benn, I want to confirm many things with cartographers and have a feedback from nightstrike before we show anything in tournament forum.

Could you replace it in Map foudry please?

MarshalNey wrote: Otherwise, I think this is a wonderful idea, and a better integration of the different areas of CC. The Foundry could make some good use of Tourneys as Beta testing grounds, using custom settings and high-quality players. Also, it would be good to know if a map makes a 'good' Tourney map; after all that's the main area of map usage besides Clan challenges.


Please Please Please ;)
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby Night Strike on Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:48 pm

DJENRE wrote:
perchorin wrote:The problem here is, most people play in tournaments for the winner's medal. What happens if the mapmaker wins, he/she gets a medal for winning one game? The other person in the finals comes away with nothing after all their hard work getting there? I think the only way you could do this is if the mapmaker was in the tourney from the very beginning and had to play/win just as many games as anyone else to win it. That's possible now, if said mapmaker is interested.


Yes, you're right about the medal and the final. Except if we tell the players that is a special "beta" tournament and that the mapmaker reach the finale directly. But I don't know if it's against cc rules. If it's not, we could do that.
ANd mapmker is not getting a medal after winning 1 game if it's best of 5 in finale for exemple, he will need 3 victories. But problem remain the same for a finale 4 players round robin for exemple.
CC rule tell that nobody can win a tournament without three games


The mapmakers can play the tournament winners in a separate series of games, but the mapmakers could not win the medal without playing the entire tournament as all players must have an equal (or nearly equal) chance to win the tournament based on the number of games/rounds played.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:52 pm

Night Strike wrote:The mapmakers can play the tournament winners in a separate series of games, but the mapmakers could not win the medal without playing the entire tournament as all players must have an equal (or nearly equal) chance to win the tournament based on the number of games/rounds played.


Night Strike,
Thank you for those indications.

While you're here, can u read last two posts (before yours) if you can do something and if you agree. (moved)
I would really like that cartographer can follow that post few more days. And I'm sure they will not if this thread in is the tournament forum.

Thank you

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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby MarshalNey on Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:07 pm

Night Strike wrote:
DJENRE wrote:
perchorin wrote:The problem here is, most people play in tournaments for the winner's medal. What happens if the mapmaker wins, he/she gets a medal for winning one game? The other person in the finals comes away with nothing after all their hard work getting there? I think the only way you could do this is if the mapmaker was in the tourney from the very beginning and had to play/win just as many games as anyone else to win it. That's possible now, if said mapmaker is interested.


Yes, you're right about the medal and the final. Except if we tell the players that is a special "beta" tournament and that the mapmaker reach the finale directly. But I don't know if it's against cc rules. If it's not, we could do that.
ANd mapmker is not getting a medal after winning 1 game if it's best of 5 in finale for exemple, he will need 3 victories. But problem remain the same for a finale 4 players round robin for exemple.
CC rule tell that nobody can win a tournament without three games


The mapmakers can play the tournament winners in a separate series of games, but the mapmakers could not win the medal without playing the entire tournament as all players must have an equal (or nearly equal) chance to win the tournament based on the number of games/rounds played.


I agree that the mapmakers shouldn't have a chance to win a medal, but I think with some creativity this tournament could still feature them.

For instance, what about a Whac-a-Mod type of scorekeeping, where the winner of the tournament is the player/team that eliminated the mapmaker(s) the most times in the finale? Or won the most games in the finale (not counting the mapmaker wins)?

That way, the mapmaker makes a 'guest' appearance as an obstacle/target, but doesn't have a stake in winning the tourney-- just winning the games and not losing points ;) There might be many mapmakers that would be flattered to take part and wouldn't need the enticement of a Tournament Medal to participate.

I've never made a Tourney, but would this idea fit within the guidelines?
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:20 pm

MarshalNey wrote: I agree that the mapmakers shouldn't have a chance to win a medal, but I think with some creativity this tournament could still feature them.

For instance, what about a Whac-a-Mod type of scorekeeping, where the winner of the tournament is the player/team that eliminated the mapmaker(s) the most times in the finale? Or won the most games in the finale (not counting the mapmaker wins)?

That way, the mapmaker makes a 'guest' appearance as an obstacle/target, but doesn't have a stake in winning the tourney-- just winning the games and not losing points ;) There might be many mapmakers that would be flattered to take part and wouldn't need the enticement of a Tournament Medal to participate.

I've never made a Tourney, but would this idea fit within the guidelines?


I agree, the mapmakers, even if they don't get a medal, should be proud to defend their own map in finale. They could be under the spotlights in the thread and during the tourney. Most of the cartographers are unknown by players even if they do a great job.

About the finale, I think we have quiet the same idea but what is a Whac-a-Mod?

For the finale, if any player (/ team) can reach conditions to win the tourney, he becomes a mapmaker killer and get a tourney medal. If nobody can reach the number of victories needed or conditions needed, the Mapmaker stay as the master of his own map. And we could play another tournament in this case.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby FarangDemon on Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:01 pm

DJENRE wrote:
MarshalNey wrote: I agree that the mapmakers shouldn't have a chance to win a medal, but I think with some creativity this tournament could still feature them.


Yes, for the record I agree as well. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.

DJENRE, I like your Whac-a-Mod idea in theory. I would be proud to defend the Thailand map. But it would be too many games for my liking, and I have clan obligations. So I'd prefer to just enter tourney as a regular combatant. Anyway, we can finalize details when the map actually becomes beta....
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:30 pm

FarangDemon wrote: Yes, for the record I agree as well. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.
DJENRE, I like your Whac-a-Mod idea in theory. I would be proud to defend the Thailand map. But it would be too many games for my liking, and I have clan obligations. So I'd prefer to just enter tourney as a regular combatant. Anyway, we can finalize details when the map actually becomes beta....


Yes I understand the problem. We have to check that before running any tourney.
I have to think about 2 things :
1) You (the MM) who have few time or other obligations
2] Players who has went through many games to see you in finale so we need a minimum of game.
I will set finale to fit with everybody's needs. I promess.
But as the mapmaker is the key of the tourney, we will match with him. If MM has only few time available I will send map for the finale one after another.

I think it's a better idea to see the MM only during the finale (if MM doesn't care about the medal of course).

But if many MM want to be in the first round, I could change my mind.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby Night Strike on Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:18 pm

There are other options available to include the mapmakers in the tournament, I was just specifically addressing the situation as originally presented.


I can't move the thread back without you getting a Cartographer to say it's fine (and to tell me which forum to put it in).
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby ange noir on Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:49 am

hé je comprends pas bien le tous mais si le tournoi se fait je veux y etre :-s O:)
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby dragon dor on Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:57 am

interresting idea like play vs the fondator map it s will be really fun and i see no lot tourney idea change except name and i can t get more medail so if something special here i want play in =D> :P
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:38 am

Night Strike wrote:There are other options available to include the mapmakers in the tournament, I was just specifically addressing the situation as originally presented.


I can't move the thread back without you getting a Cartographer to say it's fine (and to tell me which forum to put it in).

Ok nightstrike, thank you.
If any cartographer move it, it's ok.
If not, I'll send them Pm so they could follow how things are going...

I'm also going to post a proper example of what a MMK tournament could be on Middle ages.
And also a kind of rules guide which need to be approved.

Maybe I'm dreaming but is there any chance those MMK become [OFFICIAL]?
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:53 am

This is a first drop of MMK main rules.
Night Strike : Can u tell me if it's correct and if there is anything to add.
Is there any chance to see that MMK becoming [OFFICIAL] as it should be a big help for cartographers to see players feeling about beta maps. I would like to do things properly.
Cartographers : Could you also have a look and also tell me, regarding the feedback from players, if we link them to the thread directly or if u prefer to create another appropriate thread to avoid any mess in the map foundry.

Everybody can tell if there is any more rules or indication to make.
Thank you in advance

show: MapMaker Killer series main rules
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:12 am

This is a example of what thread could be.

Let me know if there is any change to make.
This has been done with fictives settings.
It's only to see how tournaments will be presented. See links to the thread and if cartographers are well deserved by this thread.

show: PREVIEW MMK series
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:20 am

Maybe we could add a minimum of players for any tourney to be sure we have a maximum of feedback and also because those tourney must be quiet hard to win ;)
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby SirSebstar on Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:23 am

I support Djenre, I think he has enough to get a tournament started. medals will continue to be a problem for the tournament winners if they are the map mapers, but other then that. go for it
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:33 am

Thank you for your support SirSebstar ;)

NightStrike : about a new special medal, If it's not possible, I'll ask for a general achiev medal. But if CC set a new medal only for MapMakerKillers, I'll be able to organize those tourney not only for beta map, but for any map if any cartogrphar ask for it...
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby Night Strike on Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:29 pm

DJENRE wrote:Is there any chance to see that MMK becoming [OFFICIAL] as it should be a big help for cartographers to see players feeling about beta maps. I would like to do things properly.


No.

DJENRE wrote:Thank you for your support SirSebstar ;)

NightStrike : about a new special medal, If it's not possible, I'll ask for a general achiev medal. But if CC set a new medal only for MapMakerKillers, I'll be able to organize those tourney not only for beta map, but for any map if any cartogrphar ask for it...


Lack's not going to make a special medal just for this tournament.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:20 pm

Night Strike,

Thank you for answering that so quick.

I understand Lackattack is not going to make a medal only for one tournament but MMK SERIES are going to be set for beta first (already 6 tournaments, and more with upcoming beta) and also for non beta if any cartographer ask to do a MMK on his map. There are about 160 + maps on the list so it could be a lot of tournaments.
Then the medal wouldn't be only for one tournament.

I just thought it could be nice to see a new CHALLENGE on CONQUER CLUB : defeat a mapmaker. And earn a new medal.

But the MMK series will show up anyway, with or without an [OFFICIAL] and a NEW medal.

UPDATE see next post, cartographer could make a special sig maybe?

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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby MarshalNey on Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:28 am

DJ, I looked through your sample rules and an example and I think that you've mostly got a good idea... I like that you put in the rules a part about the players making a comment on the map itself, that goes with the spirit of Beta testing- perhaps only for the winners, in order to advance they give some feedback? Dunno, forced feedback isn't great, but I think often a player just doesn't know- or take the time perhaps- to comment on a map to the mapmaker, even though they have opinions that they'd like to share.

Anyway, there is at least one big problem, and that's the winner of the finale. I don't like that there can be 'no winner', and 'another tournament played'... it seems like a bait-and-switch that could leave players angry. If a tourney is created, at the end I think at least one of the players who entered at the beginning should get a medal.

If you have to use a scoring system (and I think you will), so be it, but make sure that a winner is determined somehow. I would suggest scoring the Finale according to who goes out first, second, etc., then add up the points earned to determine a winner. If they kill a mapmaker, have a funny little sig (maybe the mapmaker could make one?) that the player can use- it's a neat gimmick that doesn't require making a whole new medal for a special kind of tourney.

Anyway, hope this helps.

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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:30 am

MarshalNey wrote:DJ, I looked through your sample rules and an example and I think that you've mostly got a good idea... I like that you put in the rules a part about the players making a comment on the map itself, that goes with the spirit of Beta testing- perhaps only for the winners, in order to advance they give some feedback? Dunno, forced feedback isn't great, but I think often a player just doesn't know- or take the time perhaps- to comment on a map to the mapmaker, even though they have opinions that they'd like to share.


The feedback can be just "optionnal", (but many players won't take the time) or "Higly recommended" but you're right about forced feedback. But it the meantime I want the MMK to help the cartographer community as most of you were happy to see those tournaments become true.


MarshalNey wrote:Anyway, there is at least one big problem, and that's the winner of the finale. I don't like that there can be 'no winner', and 'another tournament played'... it seems like a bait-and-switch that could leave players angry. If a tourney is created, at the end I think at least one of the players who entered at the beginning should get a medal.


What I have in mind was to make something official where you have the possibility to fight a mapmaker in a finale and earn a medal for it (a new medal, created only for those series, but it's not going to be created, see NightStrike post). Those tournament would be really hard to win and there is a possibility nobody win on the first try. But if a player win that tourney, He become the MapMaker Killer on that map ONCE AND FOR ALL... That could become a nice challenge for players.
And this has been discussed on first posts... The Map Maker can win the tourney, but he can't win a medal for that if he just enters the finale. So when I say "nobody wins", I should say "the MM wins and another tourney will be created to have a second chance to defeat the MM".
MarshalNey wrote:If you have to use a scoring system (and I think you will), so be it, but make sure that a winner is determined somehow. I would suggest scoring the Finale according to who goes out first, second, etc., then add up the points earned to determine a winner. If they kill a mapmaker, have a funny little sig (maybe the mapmaker could make one?) that the player can use- it's a neat gimmick that doesn't require making a whole new medal for a special kind of tourney.

Yes, that's a really good idea!!! Instead the medal, we could have this kind of sig. Only for those who defeat a MM on his own Map into MMK series. That could be a nice alternative.
just remember that if we set something special in those series, we will have more players, then more feedback for the cartographer community.

Can you see if it's possible to make something with the cartographer community?

Thank you for your time
and YES, it helps!!!
DJENRE
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:57 am

I also added rules and tournament preview to the first page so people can see a resume of everything.
;)
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:38 am

I saw ghost of my thread is not anymore in the cartographer forum so I hope cartographers will keep an eye on it.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby benga on Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:11 am

Do not limit it to beta maps only.

What about?
ROUND 1 - map maker plays round robin vs all,
if he wins at the rate of 50% he goes to finals
where he meets the winner of single elimination bracket?
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