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Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:15 pmby Lindax
Night Strike wrote:However, because of several comments from different people, I am open to hearing a discussion on the topic if there is a desire to write a legitimate and fair policy that covers gender-specific tournaments. If you would like to make a case for such a policy, please post and discuss it in a single thread in the Tournament General Info forum.
~Night Strike
Head Tournament Director
Does this mean that if there are "several comments from different people", that we can have a discussion about a legitimate and fair policy that covers race-specific tournaments? Or religion-specific tournaments?
Or how about starting a usergroup for man only, called "Vagina Ripperz"? Is there even the remotest chance that that would be allowed?
Ever heard of the term "positive discrimination"? Is that okay on CC? I would like to make a case for the rules being applied equally amongst all genders, races, religions, etc.
Lx
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:37 pmby chapcrap
As Night Strike said, that tournament was a one time exemption. I don't see this a future fixture in the tournament landscape.
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:49 pmby Lindax
chapcrap wrote:As Night Strike said, that tournament was a one time exemption. I don't see this a future fixture in the tournament landscape.
That's totally beside the point. Read my post again....
I have no problem with the one-time exemption, btw.
Lx
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:58 pmby chapcrap
There can always be a discussion about anything. That doesn't mean that it will happen. He was simply stating that this was a one time exemption and if you are looking for more, then something in policy will need to change. As of now, this does not seem to be something that is in the future.
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:03 amby dazerazer
Were you guys raised by wolves? What kind of gentlemen acts this way? There is NOTHING wrong with treating women with the respect they deserve! Plus with us being such a small few, what is the harm here? There are exceptions made for international tourneys. Why must you fight tooth and nail to prevent the women from feeling a little bit special on a male dominated and male-centric site? Oh... I guess that would be why. This is a male-centric site and you guys want to keep all aspects of it that way. I get it.
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:04 amby Lindax
chapcrap wrote:There can always be a discussion about anything. That doesn't mean that it will happen. He was simply stating that this was a one time exemption and if you are looking for more, then something in policy will need to change. As of now, this does not seem to be something that is in the future.
You're first statement is untrue. As for the rest, you still don't get the point....
Now, this is really, honestly, not meant as a flame, but I'm glad you didn't write the constitution.
Lx
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:05 amby Lindax
dazerazer wrote:Were you guys raised by wolves? What kind of gentlemen acts this way? There is NOTHING wrong with treating women with the respect they deserve! Plus with us being such a small few, what is the harm here? There are exceptions made for international tourneys. Why must you fight tooth and nail to prevent the women from feeling a little bit special on a male dominated and male-centric site? Oh... I guess that would be why. This is a male-centric site and you guys want to keep all aspects of it that way. I get it.
Nope, you obviously don't get it either.
Lx
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:21 amby Bruceswar
Lindax I get what you are saying, but gender tournaments are different than race or religion. We can go back and forth, but you know they are not the same. Personally I am glad this tournament went on to be let run. The ladies of CC need more perks if you ask me. With that said, which team will you be rooting for? So many good choices.
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:24 amby dazerazer
Lindax wrote:dazerazer wrote:Were you guys raised by wolves? What kind of gentlemen acts this way? There is NOTHING wrong with treating women with the respect they deserve! Plus with us being such a small few, what is the harm here? There are exceptions made for international tourneys. Why must you fight tooth and nail to prevent the women from feeling a little bit special on a male dominated and male-centric site? Oh... I guess that would be why. This is a male-centric site and you guys want to keep all aspects of it that way. I get it.
Nope, you obviously don't get it either.
Lx
Nope? That is all you can say? Nope to what? Which question is it you are "nope"ing? I believe that, just as there is a policy created for other specific types of tourneys, there should be a policy on tourneys which would allow us all to play in the tournament without regard to the "Ball Busterz" usergroup. Do we even have specified usergroups based on color or religion?
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:26 amby Swimmerdude99
I feel like 1) this was blown out of proportion 2) I do agree that that usergroup would be frowned upon, but its the double standards of our culture I guess. 2 girls hug each other, no big deal. Two guys hug each other and you get a look from the crowd, but that is beside the point.
I don't tink that there is an issue "discriminating" if thats what you want to call it, in the entries for tournies. Similar to the 2000+ tournies or "low-rank" tournies, or "non-clan member tournies." Also, other tourney organizers have the right to say no to foes or people who deadbeat. The tourney organizer is supposed to be allowed to run a fun tourney. I don't see what is wrong with this? The person who creates the tourney is allowed to run it right? WE don't need a CC government taking over, they are here to just make things run smoothly.
Moral of story, all girl tourney. sure. its a social thing, gettting to know each other... however if we had a "White people tourney" THAT would be wrong. becuase it is done with no good philosophy. However the tourney which this is stemming from is not an issue. Its like a girls' night out. People like to have fun.
Have a good evening
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:26 amby merch313
Lindax wrote:Or how about starting a usergroup for man only, called "Vagina Ripperz"?
Lx
I would like to join this usergroup
I kinda get what you are sayin LX. Im going to think about it and get back to you!
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:27 amby ViperOverLord
If there was a very limited number of tournaments then I would not be for this so-called discrimination. But there is more than enough opportunity for everybody to compete in plenty of tournaments (almost all of them even). Also, this tournament does not affect any male member's standing on CC.
I think class based tournaments is a solid foundation. As long as it is upfront and there is no individual discrimination then I see no problem. The females should be allowed to hold as many female only tournaments as they want. And conversely if any male wants to hold a male only tournament then that should be fine too. And I believe that due to the abundance of available tournaments then it does not need to be a one time exception, but an constant allowance.
Based on this concept, I would say that regional tournaments should be allowed as well. If someone wanted to hold a France residents only tournament then I'd be fine with that as well.
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:29 amby NoSurvivors
I honestly don't see the issue here.. Why can't they make their tourney? If a male wants in, then can't he make a tourney that has the same map, etc? What is the big problem? I see not a thing wrong with it, lol. Heck, even if I were to make say a (as an example) Jewish only tournament, who says a catholic person can't make a tourney with the same aspects as that tourney? Don't mean to be rude but seriously not allowing a female only tourney sounds kinda silky at this point...
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:33 amby Namliam
Lx, are you seriously still going on about this?? Let it go man! Don't be the mega-douche here! The ladies are going to have a tourney all to themselves, and have a great time with it. Why can't you handle that?
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:34 amby dazerazer
Very excellent points made by all you fine gentleMEN. Thanks for making it known you support and respect and value the CC women! Very classy of you gents and I personally thank you kindly! 
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:39 amby orangenitrox
I'm all in on the girl-fights!
Seriously, rock on with it...a ladies tourney is a very cool thing!
-Nitrox
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:40 amby jsnyder748
Calm down there people. Lx brings up a point and certainly there are pros and cons to adding this new feature to tournaments. I personally think that if a tournament restricting others were to ever be made again it would certainly have to have positive feedback and have a purpose to it.
Daze's tournament definitely had positive feedback and a purpose (give the women of cc their own fun little tournament). If a tourny were to ever be made again with restrictions outside of the norms I.e. points, turns taken percentage, etc. Then we should have guidelines for how the tournament should be handled.
Some topics will always be too controversal and should be kept out with good reason, but we should give this a chance and set up some rules.
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:44 amby MrPipes
I think there is bright-line between inclusive vs exclusive groups that the policy could easily cover that does not lend itself to discrimination. I think a Girls only Tourney is a great idea that is intended to bring clearly a minority group into the spotlight and feel a bit more welcomed. Other ideas would be a Newbies tourney would be fun for new folks. I get that some folk like to talk tough but that does offend some so there could be NoHoldsBarred Tourney where you truly attempt to crawl under the opponent skin to rattle their strategy...but the rules need to be clear going in...The purpose is to be inclusive of like minded souls not exclusive. There is no way to make it fair...to say anything goes will offend some but others may not want to be part of it...in the long run...it is good for CC. Would getting more women to join CC in a way that made them feel more welcome be good for CC...I would say yes. Would a tourney that was for Blue Eyed White Males only be good for CC...likely not. So there is no hard fast rule that can be applied...but cc does need to evolve and grow. I can see a Male vs Female tourney being a fun thing too. We'll...those are my thoughts for today...Cheers to all! -pipes
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:52 amby Great-Ollie
Seriously guys chill out, relax, let the fine ladies on the site have their tourney and as many tourneys for ladies as they may see fit. I don't blame them one bit for wanting this with all the ego's flouting around this site when it comes to the male gender. It is suppose to be a fun site for males and females, so if the ladies feel like they may have more fun in a all ladies tourney, power to them. Heck i may start an all ladies tourney and run it for them just to prove a point lol. Good luck ladies, let me know if i can help out in any way.
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:55 amby safariguy5
Is Lx afraid of setting a precedent about handing out medals? Honestly, I think the tournaments are more about friendly competition and maybe a little smack talking than medals. If there is no malicious intent and everyone is just out to have fun, I see no problem with allowing the tourney.
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 amby Denise
While I appreciate the male gallantry and all the support shown to Dazey's tournament, I think that most of you are missing the point. Lx has already said that he has no problem with the exception being made for Dazey's tournament. What we need to be concerned about is setting a precedent, or changing the rules, to make gender specific tournaments freely allowed at all times. That would (or at least could) lead to discriminatory tournaments. I know if I went to the tournament page and saw a trips tournament on a map I loved, but it was for males only, I would not be happy about it. Sure there are lots of tournaments to choose from, but we need to make sure to keep it so as much as possible. The requirements that are now allowed do not discriminate, because anyone can become an officer, become a clan member, improve their rating, etc. The difference here is that if someone can't change their gender, race, etc., it should not be easy to make that a tournament requirement.
Dazey, I'm really glad you saw this through and were able to get it approved. I had no idea there were as many women playing the game as there are, and your tournament has brought them out to the tournament scene and our ladies group, so thanks. I think the right decision was made when an exception was made for you.
That said, I agree with Lx. The rules should not be changed, but exceptions made when appropriate.
MrPipes wrote:I think there is bright-line between inclusive vs exclusive groups that the policy could easily cover that does not lend itself to discrimination. I think a Girls only Tourney is a great idea that is intended to bring clearly a minority group into the spotlight and feel a bit more welcomed. Other ideas would be a Newbies tourney would be fun for new folks. I get that some folk like to talk tough but that does offend some so there could be NoHoldsBarred Tourney where you truly attempt to crawl under the opponent skin to rattle their strategy...but the rules need to be clear going in...The purpose is to be inclusive of like minded souls not exclusive. There is no way to make it fair...to say anything goes will offend some but others may not want to be part of it...in the long run...it is good for CC. Would getting more women to join CC in a way that made them feel more welcome be good for CC...I would say yes. Would a tourney that was for Blue Eyed White Males only be good for CC...likely not. So there is no hard fast rule that can be applied...but cc does need to evolve and grow. I can see a Male vs Female tourney being a fun thing too. We'll...those are my thoughts for today...Cheers to all! -pipes
That's very well stated, and I agree completely.
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:03 amby HardAttack
I understand the point of Daze here, i know daze little bir personally as well and there is no little harshy side in her mind with this plan/thought of her on her creation and shape of the tourney.
However, denise makes very nice points in her post, namely what if a woman around to see a torunament only for men ? Wudnt it any make women around angry/nervous ? Yes sure it wud do. Of very course, daze's intentions are positive, i have got no little doubt, but this is a creation of a rule gap, or say a gap to be spoiled and to create further problems afterwards.
Discussing this only around daze, and her tourney is wrong but should be looked at the matter a bit more widely.
Lx is not stating his any in favor or against side for the daze's tournament but SHOULD be well understood that he is talking about policies and what such an approval wud come with in the future.
Finally, daze's idea is great, but i am against on it. I know the dilemma in my statement, but sometimes we have to avoid from even great ideas for potential future harrases and bad uses.
Sorry daze but my thoughts at the end.
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:45 amby MrPanzerGeneral
I personally would like to see this site refrain from making ANYTHING gender, race, sexuality, religion, and even (or perhaps...most of all), "nationality" based....that said, I don't see any real difference from a tourney being run only for say.......Males ...from one that is only for Fascist Sodomitic Red-Indian Horse Whisperers.....the principle is the same.
The Internet is your playground.......If you want to really fight injustice, do it in real life. That way it's more meaningful.
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:11 amby Swimmerdude99
Denise wrote:Sure there are lots of tournaments to choose from, but we need to make sure to keep it so as much as possible. The requirements that are now allowed do not discriminate, because anyone can become an officer, become a clan member, improve their rating, etc. The difference here is that if someone can't change their gender, race, etc., it should not be easy to make that a tournament requirement.
I understand and respect your opinion here Denise but one argument I don't think is solid is the comparison. As has been stated before though, you can create an tournament that is EXACTLY the same, so as far as I see... its not a real issue to limit female tournaments, I think they should always have to request approval but in general I think they will help strengthen the community not damage it. Male-only tournies seem unfair because women are in the definite minority on this site, so it wouldn't seem to be fair to me.
Denise wrote:That said, I agree with Lx. The rules should not be changed, but exceptions made when appropriate.
+1
Re: Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?
Posted:
Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:16 amby malevolous
I know there are already some tournaments restricted based on score, and that has to be frustrating to some people, so a bunch of gender specific tournaments might also be frustrating. At the same time, I think people should be allowed to have fun, and if fun for them is an exclusive tournament, I don't see any problem with it. As long as they don't get too offensive, or take up half the tournaments, I don't see why there should even be a restriction.