Conquer Club

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:39 am**

I'm all in on the girl-fights! :shock:

Seriously, rock on with it...a ladies tourney is a very cool thing!

-Nitrox

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:40 am**

Calm down there people. Lx brings up a point and certainly there are pros and cons to adding this new feature to tournaments. I personally think that if a tournament restricting others were to ever be made again it would certainly have to have positive feedback and have a purpose to it.

Daze's tournament definitely had positive feedback and a purpose (give the women of cc their own fun little tournament). If a tourny were to ever be made again with restrictions outside of the norms I.e. points, turns taken percentage, etc. Then we should have guidelines for how the tournament should be handled.

Some topics will always be too controversal and should be kept out with good reason, but we should give this a chance and set up some rules.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:44 am**

I think there is bright-line between inclusive vs exclusive groups that the policy could easily cover that does not lend itself to discrimination. I think a Girls only Tourney is a great idea that is intended to bring clearly a minority group into the spotlight and feel a bit more welcomed. Other ideas would be a Newbies tourney would be fun for new folks. I get that some folk like to talk tough but that does offend some so there could be NoHoldsBarred Tourney where you truly attempt to crawl under the opponent skin to rattle their strategy...but the rules need to be clear going in...The purpose is to be inclusive of like minded souls not exclusive. There is no way to make it fair...to say anything goes will offend some but others may not want to be part of it...in the long run...it is good for CC. Would getting more women to join CC in a way that made them feel more welcome be good for CC...I would say yes. Would a tourney that was for Blue Eyed White Males only be good for CC...likely not. So there is no hard fast rule that can be applied...but cc does need to evolve and grow. I can see a Male vs Female tourney being a fun thing too. We'll...those are my thoughts for today...Cheers to all! -pipes

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:52 am**

Seriously guys chill out, relax, let the fine ladies on the site have their tourney and as many tourneys for ladies as they may see fit. I don't blame them one bit for wanting this with all the ego's flouting around this site when it comes to the male gender. It is suppose to be a fun site for males and females, so if the ladies feel like they may have more fun in a all ladies tourney, power to them. Heck i may start an all ladies tourney and run it for them just to prove a point lol. Good luck ladies, let me know if i can help out in any way.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:55 am**

Is Lx afraid of setting a precedent about handing out medals? Honestly, I think the tournaments are more about friendly competition and maybe a little smack talking than medals. If there is no malicious intent and everyone is just out to have fun, I see no problem with allowing the tourney.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:56 am**

While I appreciate the male gallantry and all the support shown to Dazey's tournament, I think that most of you are missing the point. Lx has already said that he has no problem with the exception being made for Dazey's tournament. What we need to be concerned about is setting a precedent, or changing the rules, to make gender specific tournaments freely allowed at all times. That would (or at least could) lead to discriminatory tournaments. I know if I went to the tournament page and saw a trips tournament on a map I loved, but it was for males only, I would not be happy about it. Sure there are lots of tournaments to choose from, but we need to make sure to keep it so as much as possible. The requirements that are now allowed do not discriminate, because anyone can become an officer, become a clan member, improve their rating, etc. The difference here is that if someone can't change their gender, race, etc., it should not be easy to make that a tournament requirement.

Dazey, I'm really glad you saw this through and were able to get it approved. I had no idea there were as many women playing the game as there are, and your tournament has brought them out to the tournament scene and our ladies group, so thanks. I think the right decision was made when an exception was made for you.

That said, I agree with Lx. The rules should not be changed, but exceptions made when appropriate.

MrPipes wrote:I think there is bright-line between inclusive vs exclusive groups that the policy could easily cover that does not lend itself to discrimination. I think a Girls only Tourney is a great idea that is intended to bring clearly a minority group into the spotlight and feel a bit more welcomed. Other ideas would be a Newbies tourney would be fun for new folks. I get that some folk like to talk tough but that does offend some so there could be NoHoldsBarred Tourney where you truly attempt to crawl under the opponent skin to rattle their strategy...but the rules need to be clear going in...The purpose is to be inclusive of like minded souls not exclusive. There is no way to make it fair...to say anything goes will offend some but others may not want to be part of it...in the long run...it is good for CC. Would getting more women to join CC in a way that made them feel more welcome be good for CC...I would say yes. Would a tourney that was for Blue Eyed White Males only be good for CC...likely not. So there is no hard fast rule that can be applied...but cc does need to evolve and grow. I can see a Male vs Female tourney being a fun thing too. We'll...those are my thoughts for today...Cheers to all! -pipes

That's very well stated, and I agree completely. =D>

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:03 am**

I understand the point of Daze here, i know daze little bir personally as well and there is no little harshy side in her mind with this plan/thought of her on her creation and shape of the tourney.
However, denise makes very nice points in her post, namely what if a woman around to see a torunament only for men ? Wudnt it any make women around angry/nervous ? Yes sure it wud do. Of very course, daze's intentions are positive, i have got no little doubt, but this is a creation of a rule gap, or say a gap to be spoiled and to create further problems afterwards.
Discussing this only around daze, and her tourney is wrong but should be looked at the matter a bit more widely.
Lx is not stating his any in favor or against side for the daze's tournament but SHOULD be well understood that he is talking about policies and what such an approval wud come with in the future.
Finally, daze's idea is great, but i am against on it. I know the dilemma in my statement, but sometimes we have to avoid from even great ideas for potential future harrases and bad uses.
Sorry daze but my thoughts at the end.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:45 am**

I personally would like to see this site refrain from making ANYTHING gender, race, sexuality, religion, and even (or perhaps...most of all), "nationality" based....that said, I don't see any real difference from a tourney being run only for say.......Males ...from one that is only for Fascist Sodomitic Red-Indian Horse Whisperers.....the principle is the same.
The Internet is your playground.......If you want to really fight injustice, do it in real life. That way it's more meaningful.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:11 am**

Denise wrote:Sure there are lots of tournaments to choose from, but we need to make sure to keep it so as much as possible. The requirements that are now allowed do not discriminate, because anyone can become an officer, become a clan member, improve their rating, etc. The difference here is that if someone can't change their gender, race, etc., it should not be easy to make that a tournament requirement.

I understand and respect your opinion here Denise but one argument I don't think is solid is the comparison. As has been stated before though, you can create an tournament that is EXACTLY the same, so as far as I see... its not a real issue to limit female tournaments, I think they should always have to request approval but in general I think they will help strengthen the community not damage it. Male-only tournies seem unfair because women are in the definite minority on this site, so it wouldn't seem to be fair to me.

Denise wrote:That said, I agree with Lx. The rules should not be changed, but exceptions made when appropriate.

+1

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:16 am**

I know there are already some tournaments restricted based on score, and that has to be frustrating to some people, so a bunch of gender specific tournaments might also be frustrating. At the same time, I think people should be allowed to have fun, and if fun for them is an exclusive tournament, I don't see any problem with it. As long as they don't get too offensive, or take up half the tournaments, I don't see why there should even be a restriction.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:21 am**

I don't have any problem with these women going at it as long as I can watch :mrgreen:

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:23 am**

We do not have usergroups allowed based on race. We do not have user groups allowed based on religion. We do have approved usergroups which are region specific and an approved usergroup which is gender specific. CC is a world in and of itself. We create our own rules here. The fate of the REAL world is not at stake here. The statistical minorities and majorities of the human race do not apply here. The male to female ratio on CC is not 1.02/1 as it is in the real world. Recognizing and respecting that is OKAY.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:10 pm**

dazerazer wrote:We do not have user groups allowed based on religion.

Jesus Freaks "We Are Proud Players of Conquer Club And Proud To Follow Christ"
The Godless Heathens "A usergroup for Atheists/Agnostics."

There's two. But of course, beside the point.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:22 pm**

Hey look, a minority wants something! Let's create rules to make it harder for them to get what they want! In the interest of fairness, naturally.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:34 pm**

I've missed the conversation here and I apologize.

The question Lindax raises is not whether women should be allowed to have their own tournament but rather any group should based on anything other than merit. The general rule of tournaments is that at least have the slots have to be open to the CC community as a whole although there is a caveat that they can put rank limits in (and even that is limited so we can't have a Col only tournament).

CC policy has always specifically denied the abilty for in clan tournaments, private friend tournaments etc for the reason that tournaments are intended to be inclusive and fun for the entire community.

There are some here who have advocated that women should be able to have "their own tournament" and even a few more who say we should create tournaments on any basis (Jewish, Catholic, whatever). I see this as a slippery slope. As any society we draw lines where we as a community wish them to be but the problem with them is when we draw them in the wrong place. When we allow a minority grouping to create a specified exception to a rule we create a precedence for a majority to exclude that same minority in the future. Those that look at this issue and say "why can't girls have a tournament" are clearly missing that point. Its not about that, its about the society we have here on CC and the rules we want to live under.

Those who attack Lindax personally are wrong to do so as he is raising a point that should be raised. Those who say that this is an attack on women or a male/female thing are being foolish as that certainly isn't the point either.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:41 pm**

squishyg wrote:Hey look, a minority wants something! Let's create rules to make it harder for them to get what they want! In the interest of fairness, naturally.

Hey look, a minority wants something! Let's ignore current rules and guidelines in order to give them special treatment over any other group, minority or not, so they can get what they want! In the interest of fairness, naturally.

Because, being a minority makes it very difficult to join Conquer Club. Oh, wait...
Because, being a minority makes it very difficult to buy premium... Oh, wait...
Because, being a minority makes it very difficult to join games.....
Because, being a minority makes it very difficult to join tourneys....
Because, being a minority makes it very difficult to run tourneys....
Because, being a minority makes it very difficult to join user groups....
Because, being a minority makes it very difficult to run user groups....

Actually, I'm confused... in what way does being a minority affect anyone's Conquer Clubbing experience, negatively or positively? Conquer Club has in no way discriminated against ANY group of people, whether it's male or female; black, white, red or yellow; Atheist, Buddhist, Christian, or Muslim; Communist, Democrat, Republican, or Royalist... all users are equal, equally allowed to join, equally allowed to play, buy membership, run tourneys, join tourneys, run user groups, join user groups, as long as each individual member stays within the rules and guidelines.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:39 pm**

dazerazer wrote:Were you guys raised by wolves? What kind of gentlemen acts this way? There is NOTHING wrong with treating women with the respect they deserve! Plus with us being such a small few, what is the harm here? There are exceptions made for international tourneys. Why must you fight tooth and nail to prevent the women from feeling a little bit special on a male dominated and male-centric site? Oh... I guess that would be why. This is a male-centric site and you guys want to keep all aspects of it that way. I get it.

Firstly what has allowing a ladies only tournament or not got to do with respect or lack there of for the women of CC? The rules and guidelines that are currently in place with regards to tournaments are there to make them as open and welcoming as possible to EVERYONE, including women. Yes certain restrictions are allowed based on points or membership status (the latter being for obvious practical reasons) but thankfully these are few and far between. As for allowing international tournaments, my understanding is that these are run within the specific language forums so never impact on the general tournament going population and are there solely to close any barriers that may prevent a non-English speaking player from joining regular tournaments. No such barrier exists for us women, unless you're suggesting that having to play in a tournament dominated by men somehow puts us at a disadvantage, because I know several regular female tournament goers who would strongly disagree with that, myself included!

Secondly, why simply because we are in a minority on this site do you feel we should be granted special privileges or treated differently from any other section of CC? Wouldn't you prefer to be seen as equals?. It's funny how you automatically assume that Lindax' concerns are simply because he is a man and just wants to keep all aspects of this site "male-centric", rather than because he has put a lot of work into the tournament section in the past and wants to ensure that its integrity is upheld. Isn't that like being....er...sexist? Well I'm a woman and I too share his concerns about where this bending of the rules could lead as do a few other women on here it seems. This issue isn't just about this one particular tournament but what it could pave the way for. I personally wouldn't like to see any changes made to the rules with regards to allowing gender-specific tournaments, because I don't think they are fair or frankly needed. If we want to run or participate in all female tournaments no one is stopping us - we can run as many of them as we want to from within the Ball Busterz usergroup. Yes it's a bit more work setting up games etc, but so what? The only difference is we won't get a medal for it, but again so what? If the main reason for having such all-female tournaments is to make the women of CC feel more welcome and to encourage bonding etc then that shouldn't matter. And as far as making female users feel welcomed, wouldn't a link to the BB usergroup on the home page be more effective at achieving that than a tournament in a section of the site that they may never enter anyway?

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:45 pm**

Look, I just wanted to start a tournament to make the women of CC feel welcome as well as to give them an outlet to meet other ladies on CC. To feel noticed and a little special.

Far too often women come to the site and then just leave unceremoniously because they are not comfortable here or feel isolated or intimidated.

Then there are also women who stay but are too intimidated to even allow people to know they are female because of how the guys treat them or act when they realize they are playing with a girl. Obviously there are some who will disagree but we all know how things are most of the time with most of the players.

Although we keep throwing the word "minority" around, there is a huge distinction between male vs. female and other minorities.

If CC would embrace that, I truly feel like there is a HUGE opportunity for exponential growth.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:18 pm**

dazerazer wrote:Then there are also women who stay but are too intimidated to even allow people to know they are female because of how the guys treat them or act when they realize they are playing with a girl.

This is true. I know someone that made her name specifically masculine so that people who she player with would think she was a man.

That being said, what can I do to get my wife (cardinal.baby) to play more?

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:43 pm**

chapcrap wrote:
dazerazer wrote:Then there are also women who stay but are too intimidated to even allow people to know they are female because of how the guys treat them or act when they realize they are playing with a girl.

This is true. I know someone that made her name specifically masculine so that people who she player with would think she was a man.

That being said, what can I do to get my wife (cardinal.baby) to play more?

Make concessions which will allow us to be a more female friendly community.

Posted: **Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:59 pm**

dazerazer wrote:Look, I just wanted to start a tournament to make the women of CC feel welcome as well as to give them an outlet to meet other ladies on CC.

Wasn't the Ball Busterz usergroup set up for that express reason? And since it's possible that not all the women who join CC are interested in joining tournaments, isn't it a more effective vehicle for them to mingle socially?

dazerazer wrote:Far too often women come to the site and then just leave unceremoniously because they are not comfortable here or feel isolated or intimidated

Then there are also women who stay but are too intimidated to even allow people to know they are female because of how the guys treat them or act when they realize they are playing with a girl. Obviously there are some who will disagree but we all know how things are most of the time with most of the players.

What are you getting this information from? Do you actually know first hand of any cases where this has happened or are you just making sweeping, unfounded statements again? Even if this is the case how are official all female tournaments going to change what goes on in the rest of the site? If some women on here genuinely feel too intimidated to join male dominated tournaments or random public games, as I stated previously, they are free to run or join private tournaments/games made through Ball Busterz.

dazerazer wrote:Although we keep throwing the word "minority" around, there is a huge distinction between male vs. female and other minorities.
If CC would embrace that, I truly feel like there is a HUGE opportunity for exponential growth.

Are you seriously suggesting that having all female tournaments will increase female membership here? When you joined were you aware whether or not such things existed? Did the fact that there weren't any put you off from staying? Obviously not! Nor did it I or any other of the women I know here on CC. I don't deny that there are probably some women on here who are put off from posting in the forums or even revealing their gender because of the way some "boys" on here react to women posters/players but official all female tournaments won't change that. On the flip side I also see a lot of female users who go out of their way to advertise their gender with their avatars and sigs etc because they like the inevitable attention they get precisely because this is a male dominated site.

Posted: **Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:06 am**

Of course it didnt turn me away or I wouldn't be here. Strong female personalities are okay here. It is evident that some women arent comfortable here or there would be more. Most new players know very little about forums being that they come here initially to play the game. So yes, I am suggesting having more games for females rather than just a forum could potentially bring in more women.

Tripitaka, whats your problem? Seriously... what has you so bent that you feel it necessary to pick apart my statements? I mean no harm here so what's with the animosity? Relax.

Posted: **Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:03 am**

dazerazer wrote:Tripitaka, whats your problem? Seriously... what has you so bent that you feel it necessary to pick apart my statements? I mean no harm here so what's with the animosity? Relax.

Frankly daze, your statements (or what you call statements) are full of holes, biased opinions, assumptions and untruths.

Lx

Posted: **Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:05 am**

There aren't a lot of women on any online gaming site. I don't think CC does anything worse than anywhere else. I think it's just the style of the site that lends itself to having more men than women.

Posted: **Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:23 am**

chapcrap wrote:There aren't a lot of women on any online gaming site. I don't think CC does anything worse than anywhere else. I think it's just the style of the site that lends itself to having more men than women.

Pogo is pretty much nothing but middle-aged women, as one example. Either you don't know the internet, or you don't know women.

For the record, I have long-felt that CC should respect it's female users more. That's why I created the Wonderful Warrior Women series of tournaments. The first one is in sign-ups now, although I have been planning the series since back when DJENRE was still around.

[/self-promotion]

Now I want to get at what the original question here is: where do we draw the line?

The main problem is not that there are specific minority based tournaments in and of itself. That is fine. I would say there is no reason to draw the line. To address a question why not start a usergroup called Vagina Ripperz? Well, most of the clans might as well be called that anyways. Most of the tournaments ARE male-only. That has already happened.

The problem is twofold.

Part 1: Why should the TOs have to work to help and organize private tournaments?
Part 2: Why should players get medals for private tournaments?

As such, there is no current solution, so I would like to propose changing the current structure of tournament setup.

Step 1: Make a new, self-regulating for private tournaments. Sort of like the off-topic games thread is organized now. Just a single subforum where private groups can have a link in the tournament forum. Unfortunately, these tournaments won't qualify to go on the main-page.

Step 2: Allow a special class of tournament privileges. Basically, the TOs create a large tournament known as PRIVATE. Then, for example dazerazer, can apply for privileges in that tournament and run her own private tournament. She can keep running private tournaments as much as she wants.

Step 3: No medals for private tournaments.

The main issues with this solution are that tournament privileges can be abused easier and it will be theoretically harder to find games with many people using the same tournament to run several tournaments.
Seriously, though, how often are tournament privileges abused?
Also, how many private tournaments will we realistically expect to see at a time?
Also, game labels will help:

Especially, if the game label is automatically edited to include the name of the person who created the game.

Anyways, there's my 0.02 dollars.

Conquer Club

Gender-Specific Tournaments, what's the next step?

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