Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby jpcloet on Sat May 23, 2009 7:29 am

ofthe wrote:Suicide? yes, if you mean, eventually start attacking his teamates, yes, he would. Once the spy, or now, either spy is destroyed, the game is over, even if both teams still contain players. At that point, the host (me) will tell who's left to start killing each other as if it was a normal game, and points are there to be won, even though that end result won't have an impact on the tournament result.


This is clearly not allowed.

Night Strike wrote:I'm glad I dropped by. JP is correct, this is not allowed in a tournament, and probably shouldn't be allowed in Callouts either.


I gave a little slack to see where the clarification would be. This will be moved the the Tournaments G&A area.

I like innovative ideas, however, you have to still make sure you follow the rules. If you have something that is questionable, you should be asking 1. in the right area and 2. from someone who really knows that area.

Continue on with your thoughts, but make sure you ask the right questions.
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby Woodruff on Sat May 23, 2009 4:41 pm

Duke of Paddy wrote:Hey Ofthe wouldn't the spy also lose points on his profile?


True enough, but the intent would be to win the tournament itself, not to worry about the points.
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby JoshyBoy on Sat May 23, 2009 4:50 pm

So basically its a way of point-dumping for the spy.
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby ofthe on Sat May 23, 2009 7:18 pm

...errgh..who really cares much about points??? If it's any incentive, winning a prestigous toruney is pretty important, and i would make sure only quality players are entered because the teams will be changing throughout the tourney (because the spy joins the team) so you don't want your really good team being plagued with deadbeats. Also, there would definately have to be a prize (premium memberships) for the winner, so that people don't come out of the tournament feeling like they got cheated out of a few hundered points...

edit: alright, jp, I really want this to go ahead, so who should I be contacting to talk about it?
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby Gilligan on Sat May 23, 2009 7:43 pm

ofthe wrote:edit: alright, jp, I really want this to go ahead, so who should I be contacting to talk about it?


You've already got your answer. This idea is full of secret diplomacy, and to an extent serial teammate killing which are both against site rules.
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby ofthe on Sat May 23, 2009 9:39 pm

Gilligan wrote:
ofthe wrote:edit: alright, jp, I really want this to go ahead, so who should I be contacting to talk about it?


You've already got your answer. This idea is full of secret diplomacy, and to an extent serial teammate killing which are both against site rules.



Well, this is a real shame. Shame on you, Gilligan.
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby owenator on Sun May 24, 2009 12:13 am

ofthe wrote:
Gilligan wrote:
ofthe wrote:edit: alright, jp, I really want this to go ahead, so who should I be contacting to talk about it?


You've already got your answer. This idea is full of secret diplomacy, and to an extent serial teammate killing which are both against site rules.



Well, this is a real shame. Shame on you, Gilligan.


You should choose your words more wisely if you ever should want the support of the clan organizers/directors. Even if it were a joke....just my two cents.

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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby Woodruff on Sun May 24, 2009 12:14 am

ofthe wrote:
Gilligan wrote:
ofthe wrote:edit: alright, jp, I really want this to go ahead, so who should I be contacting to talk about it?


You've already got your answer. This idea is full of secret diplomacy, and to an extent serial teammate killing which are both against site rules.


Well, this is a real shame. Shame on you, Gilligan.


Shame on Gilligan? For what, pray tell?
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby ofthe on Sun May 24, 2009 12:42 am

Choose my words wisely? I did! I chose my words very wisely. Right now I am very annoyed and in keeping respect with the organisers of this site, i think declaring shame where shame is due, is fair enough.

Why shame? Because here I am, trying to put on a tournament, wanting the support of the tournament directors...and I get spat in the face. They're all banging on about how they always get the same bracketed knock-out tourneys, and I come along with an innovative and well-thought out idea, and it gets rejected because CC is tied down with so much red tape. It's a tournament with special rules on how the games are played within the tournament, which shouldn't transpose to normal games. It wouldn't be secret diplomacy if the particpants knew crystal clear what the rules entailed. But no, CC has become a grinding bureaucracy which hasn't let free ideas flourish.

Already I have recieved positive feedback from people with someone saying
That's going to be awesome
.

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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby lancehoch on Sun May 24, 2009 1:03 am

Not an official statement:

I just get the feeling that this is opening the door to secret diplomacy. The site specifically has rules against the gameplay you are looking to achieve. So, why should they tell everyone else that secret diplomacy is bad, but tell you that your tournament, based on secret diplomacy, is ok?
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby owenator on Sun May 24, 2009 1:15 am

lancehoch wrote:Not an official statement:

I just get the feeling that this is opening the door to secret diplomacy. The site specifically has rules against the gameplay you are looking to achieve. So, why should they tell everyone else that secret diplomacy is bad, but tell you that your tournament, based on secret diplomacy, is ok?


Indeed a good point.
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby Lindax on Sun May 24, 2009 1:22 am

ofthe wrote:hey guys,

I have an idea for a tournament which is going to be really interesting. What I need is individuals (or bring your team of 3) for my games. They will involve a bit of a twist to the game. A randomly generated player from either team is going to be a spy for his/her opponents. The spy's teamates won't know which of the players is the spy. The team of 3 which doesn't contain the spy (which has the spy working for them) will know who the spy is after X amount of turns (set by me).
Therefore, the spy will want his normal team to lose, so it is essentially 4 v 2. guys, i'm not sure if it will work, so please join in and we can tweak it so we can develop my upcoming tournament.


Mmmm.... You come up with an interesting idea (which is good), wondering "if it will work". Then when people tell you why it will not work, you get your knickers in a twist (not good).

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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby Woodruff on Sun May 24, 2009 3:35 am

ofthe wrote:Choose my words wisely? I did! I chose my words very wisely. Right now I am very annoyed and in keeping respect with the organisers of this site, i think declaring shame where shame is due, is fair enough.


And yet you haven't done that. All Gilligan has done is uphold the site's rules, as is his required duty. Any "shame" doesn't lie with him.

ofthe wrote:Why shame? Because here I am, trying to put on a tournament, wanting the support of the tournament directors...and I get spat in the face.


It's great that you had some creativity with your tournament idea...I've already applauded that earlier in the thread. But nobody at all has done anything remotely near to "spitting in your face". Gilligan certainly hasn't.

You really do need to check your crappy attitude at the door.
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby ofthe on Sun May 24, 2009 3:49 am

@lancehoch: Fair enough, that's a pretty reasonable argument. But I would make it clear that this kind of gameplay would not overrun into standard games. Although, i don't think it would open the floodgates to secret diplomacy legalization because tournaments are in a seperate league to standard public games. It's not even a secret diplomacy because each team will know at the start of the game that A: one of their teamates (or themselves) is a spy and B: one of the opposition players is actually working for them.
Spies will be told at round 1 they are the spy. There is no secret diplomacys because the teams are set. There are two defined teams. The only difference between this and a normal game is that you don't know who your real teamates are. And I will repeat for the hundredth time, particpants will know crystal clear how the games are to be played, and they will know all of the information I have been posting in this thread.

@Lindax: Alright, since that post, the conditions have been changhed so it's 4v4, one spy on each team. When i said, "i'm not sure if it will work", I was talking about the gameplay. I wasn't sure whether 4v2 was going to be fair. In the end, I realised that the spy may as well turn on his teamates early in the game and use the 4 players to overpower the 2. That is what I meant. I was talking about the gameplay. What everybody has pointed out is an issue to do with the fundamental rules of CC, which has nothing to do with the gameplay. I never saw this as an issue because I presumed that tournaments had a bit of leniency which could be used to make interesting situations and take strategy to the next level.
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby ofthe on Sun May 24, 2009 3:56 am

Night Strike wrote:
I'm glad I dropped by. JP is correct, this is not allowed in a tournament, and probably shouldn't be allowed in Callouts either.


Gilligan wrote:
ofthe wrote:edit: alright, jp, I really want this to go ahead, so who should I be contacting to talk about it?


You've already got your answer. This idea is full of secret diplomacy, and to an extent serial teammate killing which are both against site rules.



I guess the above posts just show that the TDs are not really caring about my idea but trying to get rid of me as quick as possible. Maybe if they were less abrupt I would be more understanding. The way I look at it, the answer is "No, because rules are rules and stop trying to think outside the box, young fella." IMO, that equates to spitting in my face because they are not reasoning with me...
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby ofthe on Sun May 24, 2009 4:00 am

jpcloet wrote:Did you clear this with a TD?

Unless you state clearly what the spy can and cannot do, this is a predefined secret diplomacy and not allowed.



Key word: Unless

I am stating clearly to all particpants what the spy can and cannot do (and what all players can do) as part of the tournament brief and a personal PM to all particpants so that everybody is clear on the rules. Therefore it is not a secret diplomacy...
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby JoshyBoy on Sun May 24, 2009 4:52 am

ofthe wrote:
Gilligan wrote:
ofthe wrote:edit: alright, jp, I really want this to go ahead, so who should I be contacting to talk about it?


You've already got your answer. This idea is full of secret diplomacy, and to an extent serial teammate killing which are both against site rules.



Well, this is a real shame. Shame on you, Gilligan.


SHAME ON YOU, FOOL!

Abandon the idea!
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby jpcloet on Sun May 24, 2009 6:27 am

@ofthe

The TD's are not responsible for brainstorming, just whether your tournament is valid. The other players here will help to some degree, but my experience with new innovative tournaments is that they take some time to plan and sometimes are not possible. Having teammates attack teammates is just a bad idea, sorry. My current Deadly Vipers Tournament took several months to plan and I got clearance on the attempts rule. It has a number of new or rarely used features, maybe you can get some inspiration from it.

I have yet to figure out a way to get multiplayer games into a 2-clan challenge that doesn't break the Secret Diplomacy rule as there would be predefined teams, ie. clans Eg. Say you have 4 people designated as a team on a terminator team. Players 1,3,5,7 from one clan and 2,4,6,8 from the other. This breaks the Secret Dimplomacy rule. One of several ideas I had to abandon.

As for "wording", your first post still doesn't specifically say that the spy will be expected to attack his teammates.

As for ideas:
What if the spy only gave information? Eg. Each round Team 2 asks the spy on team 1, a question like, does player 1 hold the O bonus on Classic shapes? The spy then has to answer. This may be tedious to do via pm, and not sure how you would monitor or ensure the spy answers in a timely basis.
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby ofthe on Sun May 24, 2009 6:34 am

Thank-you jp, but I'm going to have to chuck it in. As you said, it would be too hard to regulate for spies to give information each turn. Delete this thread or whatever you're meant to do....I'll see if I can think of anything else in the meantime...
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby Gilligan on Sun May 24, 2009 7:13 am

ofthe, we are not trying to spit on your face. It is our duty to maintain the rules of CC inside of the tournament forum, it is not a place where rules can be violated because of its nature.

That said, let's look at the Rules page.

Rules wrote:Unwritten Rules

Obviously any gross abuse of the game is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to: throwing games or deliberately benefiting from thrown games, intentional deadbeating, serial teammate killing, hijacking accounts, systematically "farming" new members.
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby Qwert on Sun May 24, 2009 11:17 am

Rules wrote:
Unwritten Rules

Obviously any gross abuse of the game is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to: throwing games or deliberately benefiting from thrown games, intentional deadbeating, serial teammate killing, hijacking accounts, systematically "farming" new members.

Gilligan,if i understand good,these rules is for people who have secret alliances,who nobody knows,but if you have tournament where these is announce,and where people know that someon in hes team is spy,i dont understand how can these be a brake of rules. These is concept of these tournament, and i must say that you all ready have some examples where is not importan your team mate.
If Tournament have hes rules,who explane to all people that someon in hes team is spy,then i dont see any problem. If you want to have some control over tournament,then TD can get list of all spyes,and can observe tournament progress.
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby Gozar on Sun May 24, 2009 2:32 pm

qwert wrote:
Rules wrote:
Unwritten Rules

Obviously any gross abuse of the game is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to: throwing games or deliberately benefiting from thrown games, intentional deadbeating, serial teammate killing, hijacking accounts, systematically "farming" new members.

Gilligan,if i understand good,these rules is for people who have secret alliances,who nobody knows,but if you have tournament where these is announce,and where people know that someon in hes team is spy,i dont understand how can these be a brake of rules. These is concept of these tournament, and i must say that you all ready have some examples where is not importan your team mate.
If Tournament have hes rules,who explane to all people that someon in hes team is spy,then i dont see any problem. If you want to have some control over tournament,then TD can get list of all spyes,and can observe tournament progress.


I agree with qwert. If everyone is upfront, how is this a problem? It certainly is not a 'gross abuse of the game'
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby ofthe on Mon May 25, 2009 5:01 am

Ha! Just when I had given up the idea I get some support....

Gilligan?
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby JoshyBoy on Mon May 25, 2009 5:09 am

I would be interested in giving this a go btw.
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Re: Searching for testers for my tournament!!!!

Postby Optimus Prime on Mon May 25, 2009 2:28 pm

Gozar wrote:I agree with qwert. If everyone is upfront, how is this a problem? It certainly is not a 'gross abuse of the game'

The precedent has been set previously on several occasions that tournaments endorsing activities that break site rules will not be allowed. At this time that isn't a precedent that is going to be changed.

Regards, OP
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