Operation Drug War [Quenched]

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Postby mibi on Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:52 pm

you only have one junkie... can't make a living off that.


you need many junkies.
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Postby edbeard on Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:55 pm

I thought I mentioned this? Each corner is the same as the southwest. I should probably re-mention that.

Or, maybe you were just making a joke?
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Postby edbeard on Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:51 pm

the more I think about this idea, the more I like it. So, for the moment, I don't care that I'm talking to myself.


The 'four possible objectives' idea has grown on me. Three territories needed for each objective. Two in each of the sectors (side and top), and one in the middle. Going after each of the four seems to be relatively equal in difficulty. Each sector has their own strengths and weaknesses.

I think it might be a good idea to add a 9th patrol car in the Hideout sector for a couple reasons. First it allows someone to start in that sector whereas at the moment no one does. Second, it brings the starting territories up to twenty-five, so five player games will have no starting neutrals (instead of four), and it only adds one neutral to the rest of the game types.
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Postby Contron13542 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:20 pm

bryguy wrote:
Coleman wrote:This looks pretty educational to me. If you make the drug aligned look really undesirable and very very away from cool (dirty) then I don't see a problem. Make the police look very much like the good guys in this scenario, like the D.A.R.E. dog, Superman and such.

As long as you aren't encouraging anyone to actual be a drug lord and you make the map feel more like you are attacking the drug lord then being one it should be pretty good.


your actually half supporting this idea?!?!?!?!


to me its a HORRIBLE idea!!!!!!!


it's a good idea, but it needs work.
This map can be done without offending people, but a healthy compromise needs to be reached between those in favor and those against.
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Postby mibi on Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:01 am

you need an update.
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Postby Coleman on Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:35 pm

mibi wrote:you need an update.
word. :lol:
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controversial

Postby brooksieb on Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:58 pm

wud raise some eyebrows but i think i wud like it
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Postby edbeard on Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:46 pm

mibi wrote:you need an update.


yea. It only took about thirty minutes to do, but two weeks to get around to do it. Holidays and all you know

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Changes:

1. made the four objectives official
2. filled in the other three corners
3. adjusted the City Hall bonus and the muscle bonus (when holding 2nd or Leader)


Graphic Plans:

So, still don't have anyone to do them yet, but I haven't exactly been asking around. Let me know if you're interested via PM.

My idea is still to have it be in oldschool GTA style (overhead view). People will be represented BY PEOPLE. So, this makes the Patrol cars can only attack PEOPLE in the areas thing a lot easier.

If you're concerned about the stashes on the map. I think showing drugs on the map would be very tacky. They can easily be represented by backpacks, tires or something else.

I still say the city setting for this map provides a lot of opportunities for an artist looking to do something.


NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK.


Let's talk gameplay people! Thanks.


edit: I see the +2 for per 2 phones thing. which I keep meaning to change to +2 for every 2 phones
Last edited by edbeard on Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Coleman on Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:53 pm

Is this going to be conquest? I hope not.
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Postby edbeard on Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:57 pm

Coleman wrote:Is this going to be conquest? I hope not.


I don't know what that means exactly. I can guess though.

The instructions on the map tell you where you start. My first post also tells you there are 24 starting territories.
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Postby Coleman on Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:59 pm

Okay, I'll review this later when I don't have 20 different things I need to do. Hope you can wait. :)
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Postby yeti_c on Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:07 am

I think that your Objectives may be a bit easy...

They do have the "Main Stash" as a common component though - so it could turn out that 3 different people are fighting over the main stash to win!!

But how many neutrals are going on the Main stash?

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Postby edbeard on Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:33 am

yep. the objectives are easy! Currently, I had planned for every neutral starting territory to have three armies on it, including the main stash.

I wasn't thinking that we'd have long battles on this map. Everyone starts in the corners and each objective has its own ups and downs. It's almost like a symmetrical map, but I think the objectives and the differences between the top, bottom, and sides give it the little wrinkle that makes it different from a standard symmetrical map.

It certainly could be possible for drawn out battles on the map though. No one able to hold the main stash. It'd take a delicate balance to hurt the other guy enough where he won't hold it, but not so much that another player can swoop in and take the game. What a great idea this map is!! (self promotion much?)




Lets break down the gameplay a bit.

Each corner, if you hold the whole thing, gives you a +7. You have to take over quite a bit, but there's only 2 borders (3 if someone owns the stickup man). But, you're not anywhere on your way to getting the objective.

Supply only gives you +3 but it has its own route to the main stash. The only way in is through the phone and the patrol car. Still, maybe I should increase this bonus compared to the others.

Vacants is +3 to deploy anywhere and +2 directly on the stickup. There's no phone here so the only way in is the Patrol or the Detective, but that's only from the Lieutenant. And, this is a good 'stop other people from winning or bonuses' area, because of the stickup man.

City Hall would give you +6 total. It has a lot of borders though. Patrol and Phone of course, and the D.A. and Lieutenant from Attorney and Detective respectively. The bonus for patrol is nice. You need to hold both commish and lieutenant, but you probably start with some patrol since they don't start out as neutral.

Hideout is +5 and it only has two borders. The phone and the attorney. Maybe this is too powerful. But, in order to get extra bonuses from holding either 2nd or Leader, you'd need to take over neutral Muscle. Also, since there's no patrol here this area starts completely neutral. So, maybe that cancels everything out.

Stash House. This is where the magic happens. You can get in through phone or patrol. But you have to go through muscle to get to the Main Stash. The driver can get to the garage, but the main stash is the only part of Stash House area that connects to the garage. It's quite a nice way to sneak in behind everyone's back.
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Postby mibi on Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:00 am

i think you need to simplify the legend if you want to get feed back on this one. No one will give feedback unless they understand whats going on, and currently you have this 'wall of text' thing going on in the legend.

So try sorting out the legend, grouping, reducing, anything you can to make it easy and quick to understand.
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Postby Coleman on Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:35 am

Yeah, make the bonuses some sort of list column, and the objective a list column. Not sure what to do about the gameplay one though. Guess it'd stay a wall of text in a third column....
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Postby edbeard on Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:33 pm

mibi wrote:i think you need to simplify the legend if you want to get feed back on this one. No one will give feedback unless they understand whats going on, and currently you have this 'wall of text' thing going on in the legend.

So try sorting out the legend, grouping, reducing, anything you can to make it easy and quick to understand.


Coleman wrote:Yeah, make the bonuses some sort of list column, and the objective a list column. Not sure what to do about the gameplay one though. Guess it'd stay a wall of text in a third column....


sounds good guys. I was almost turning to crazy talk because I was talking to myself so much.
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Postby RjBeals on Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:20 pm

I think you should make the objective & gameplay more simple. Here's my idea.

I think with the 4 different objectives, it's a little confusing. Not to steal from the Prohibition Chicago by Cairnswk, but maybe we could all start as a different dealer, in a differt colored sector. You could still have like the junkies, boss, body-gaurds, etc.

I think the only objective should be to make your way from the corner's or edge starting positions, into the center Main Stash.

My idea is to make only one of the sectors able to leave that area. Like the Runners maybe. And put some patrol cars in front of the sector openings. The runner has to overtake the patrol car (with like a neutral 6 on it) in order to exit his sector and enter the adjacent sector. Then maybe once you occupy all patrol cars, you are safe to enter the Stash House in the center, which should also be gaurded by cops.

I don't like the phones being able to attack all other phones. I think it should be done through the drug-runners. The main goal is to get the stash. Makes more sense to me.

This idea may counter your direction, and it's not meant to glorify drug selling (even though that's the objective). It may spark some other thoughts though.

Coleman wrote:It's a good idea if it is presented right. You make the drug guys look like all the sterotypical criminals in like Lonney Toons and whatever (old middle aged, unshaven or big and stupid looking, or baby sized with an ugly face, you know, people kids don't idolize at all) and the good guys like the cool police officers in a lot of anti-drug stuff I think it would be funny for us old people and pretty good for the younger players.
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Postby edbeard on Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:17 pm

interesting ideas Rj

But, I think those ideas are more fitting for an entirely new map. I like how the setup is now. It does appear to be complicated, but actually it is very simple. This definitely will be a map where you need to read the instructions a couple times, but hopefully after that it becomes easy like Age of Merchants or Age of Realms.

It's important to be able to move swiftly around the map because of the objectives. You might not be able to stop the main stash, but with the phones you might be able to stop one of the other two territories that the player is holding.

I'm not trying to glorify drug selling. I guess having a map with this theme will be interpreted this way no matter what I do with it. As for the graphics, I hope to have an announcement on that in the next couple days.


Thanks again Mr. Beals. Even though I probably won't implement any of these ideas, I appreciate the time you put into them, and I hope to have more from you in the future.




P.S. Thank you for your constructive criticism. I have given it an appropriate response in my reply to you.

Thank you very much,

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Postby RjBeals on Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:41 pm

You my friend, have just been the first target of a drive-by

:wink:
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Postby mibi on Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:21 pm

edbeard wrote:interesting ideas Rj

But, I think those ideas are more fitting for an entirely new map. I like how the setup is now. It does appear to be complicated, but actually it is very simple. This definitely will be a map where you need to read the instructions a couple times, but hopefully after that it becomes easy like Age of Merchants or Age of Realms.

It's important to be able to move swiftly around the map because of the objectives. You might not be able to stop the main stash, but with the phones you might be able to stop one of the other two territories that the player is holding.

I'm not trying to glorify drug selling. I guess having a map with this theme will be interpreted this way no matter what I do with it. As for the graphics, I hope to have an announcement on that in the next couple days.


Thanks again Mr. Beals. Even though I probably won't implement any of these ideas, I appreciate the time you put into them, and I hope to have more from you in the future.




P.S. Thank you for your constructive criticism. I have given it an appropriate response in my reply to you.

Thank you very much,

Klobber


I like the theme, but the structure is just more complicated than it needs to be. I dont mind complication like waterloo because its a complicated history involving complicated people, but this map should be easy enough for a junkie to understand, me thinks.
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Postby edbeard on Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:25 pm

what specifically do you think is too complicated? Since I'm familiar with the map, nothing seems too complicated to me.

I mean, at first it can be a bit daunting (much like DiM's maps to be honest) but after you are more familiar with it, it's not complicated at all.


Basically, what's the most confusing? And, what would you change? Hopefully without altering the gameplay hugely or revamping everything.
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Postby oaktown on Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:09 pm

____________drive by_____________

So, I have some concerns about the graphics.

edbeard wrote:NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK.

Ah. Well, there's so much going on that it may be a bit rules heavy. I foresee starting a game, deciding on an objective, making a couple of turns and then the game ends suddenly because somebody went after an objective that I missed. After that happened twice I'd give up on the map entirely.

It's tough to judge because with the rudimentary stage of the graphics I can't take in who can attack whom, but do what are the odds that somebody will get an initial placement that leads to a fairly easy path to a winning objective?
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Postby edbeard on Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:43 am

There are quite a few rules to read. But, once that is done it shouldn't be too hard to follow.

I'm surprised by you not being able to know what attacks what. Borders are shown and anything that is different from normal is explained in the rules.


If you 'miss' an objective, I don't know what to say. If players take a minute to read what they are and see where they are, they should notice that each side (left, right, top, and bottom) have their own objective. With these 'rules heavy' maps (like DiM's maps (hope he doesn't mind me lumping myself into a category with him!)), you do need to do a bit more reading than other maps, but at the same time once you have done so, it all becomes very simple.


That being said, I agree that all the wording of the instructions could be done quite a bit better. I will be working on making them clearer and simpler. Maybe after one attempt, I can get fresh eyes from the foundry to help with this.


For those concerned about graphics, they are being worked on now. Not by me mind you. I won't say who because I'll let him do that if he so wishes. I don't know when we'll see something (I've already seen a sample), but I wouldn't expect anything soon. And, at the moment gameplay and clear instructions are most important.




At the moment, it IS possible to hold an objective on your first go. You would need to own the Supply Patrol Car. Because we only have 24 starting territories, no matter what game size you play you get 3 armies. So, to get the objective, you'd need to

1. deploy 3 armies on that patrol car (2 if think you can lose NO rolls and win a 3v3 and a 2v3)
2. conquer the driver and advance.
3. conquer the supplier but do not advance
4. conquer the garage and advance
5. conquer the main stash

if you don't lose ANY rolls you will have 1 army left to fortify how you like. You'd need to win at least one 3 v 3 attempt.

So, if this is an 'issue' I believe that upping the amount of armies on the main stash would be sufficient to counter this. Perhaps also it would be smart to make Driver to Garage a one way border. Once you are in the garage you cannot go back to the driver. The benefit of the supplier is the unique route to the main stash, but the one way route could curb this advantage slightly.
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Postby oaktown on Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:31 am

edbeard wrote:I'm surprised by you not being able to know what attacks what. Borders are shown and anything that is different from normal is explained in the rules.

My trouble right now is that understanding the map depends largely on reading the legend... A connects with B, C and D connect with E, F-L are connected, M can bombard B & D, J connects with A-I except after C, etc. There's no way I can keep that straight on my first read. Seven attack rules aren't intuitive, and those attack patterns come with exceptions. Hopefully with graphics for the phones, patrol cars, etc it will be easier to follow visually.

Plus, I think some borders are still missing?
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Postby yeti_c on Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:49 am

edbeard wrote:At the moment, it IS possible to hold an objective on your first go.


It isn't actually - if you're dealt with an objective then the game will reset and deal again...

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