Operation Drug War [Quenched]

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Postby edbeard on Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:25 pm

what specifically do you think is too complicated? Since I'm familiar with the map, nothing seems too complicated to me.

I mean, at first it can be a bit daunting (much like DiM's maps to be honest) but after you are more familiar with it, it's not complicated at all.


Basically, what's the most confusing? And, what would you change? Hopefully without altering the gameplay hugely or revamping everything.
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Postby oaktown on Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:09 pm

____________drive by_____________

So, I have some concerns about the graphics.

edbeard wrote:NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK. NOT LOOKING FOR GRAPHIC FEEDBACK.

Ah. Well, there's so much going on that it may be a bit rules heavy. I foresee starting a game, deciding on an objective, making a couple of turns and then the game ends suddenly because somebody went after an objective that I missed. After that happened twice I'd give up on the map entirely.

It's tough to judge because with the rudimentary stage of the graphics I can't take in who can attack whom, but do what are the odds that somebody will get an initial placement that leads to a fairly easy path to a winning objective?
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Postby edbeard on Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:43 am

There are quite a few rules to read. But, once that is done it shouldn't be too hard to follow.

I'm surprised by you not being able to know what attacks what. Borders are shown and anything that is different from normal is explained in the rules.


If you 'miss' an objective, I don't know what to say. If players take a minute to read what they are and see where they are, they should notice that each side (left, right, top, and bottom) have their own objective. With these 'rules heavy' maps (like DiM's maps (hope he doesn't mind me lumping myself into a category with him!)), you do need to do a bit more reading than other maps, but at the same time once you have done so, it all becomes very simple.


That being said, I agree that all the wording of the instructions could be done quite a bit better. I will be working on making them clearer and simpler. Maybe after one attempt, I can get fresh eyes from the foundry to help with this.


For those concerned about graphics, they are being worked on now. Not by me mind you. I won't say who because I'll let him do that if he so wishes. I don't know when we'll see something (I've already seen a sample), but I wouldn't expect anything soon. And, at the moment gameplay and clear instructions are most important.




At the moment, it IS possible to hold an objective on your first go. You would need to own the Supply Patrol Car. Because we only have 24 starting territories, no matter what game size you play you get 3 armies. So, to get the objective, you'd need to

1. deploy 3 armies on that patrol car (2 if think you can lose NO rolls and win a 3v3 and a 2v3)
2. conquer the driver and advance.
3. conquer the supplier but do not advance
4. conquer the garage and advance
5. conquer the main stash

if you don't lose ANY rolls you will have 1 army left to fortify how you like. You'd need to win at least one 3 v 3 attempt.

So, if this is an 'issue' I believe that upping the amount of armies on the main stash would be sufficient to counter this. Perhaps also it would be smart to make Driver to Garage a one way border. Once you are in the garage you cannot go back to the driver. The benefit of the supplier is the unique route to the main stash, but the one way route could curb this advantage slightly.
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Postby oaktown on Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:31 am

edbeard wrote:I'm surprised by you not being able to know what attacks what. Borders are shown and anything that is different from normal is explained in the rules.

My trouble right now is that understanding the map depends largely on reading the legend... A connects with B, C and D connect with E, F-L are connected, M can bombard B & D, J connects with A-I except after C, etc. There's no way I can keep that straight on my first read. Seven attack rules aren't intuitive, and those attack patterns come with exceptions. Hopefully with graphics for the phones, patrol cars, etc it will be easier to follow visually.

Plus, I think some borders are still missing?
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Postby yeti_c on Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:49 am

edbeard wrote:At the moment, it IS possible to hold an objective on your first go.


It isn't actually - if you're dealt with an objective then the game will reset and deal again...

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Postby Telvannia on Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:42 am

yeti_c wrote:
edbeard wrote:At the moment, it IS possible to hold an objective on your first go.


It isn't actually - if you're dealt with an objective then the game will reset and deal again...

C.


I think you mean, if you hold all the objectives, the game redeals, otherwise AoR would not work, as the game would not let you start with a castle...
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Postby mibi on Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:27 am

edbeard wrote:There are quite a few rules to read. But, once that is done it shouldn't be too hard to follow.

I'm surprised by you not being able to know what attacks what. Borders are shown and anything that is different from normal is explained in the rules.


If you 'miss' an objective, I don't know what to say. If players take a minute to read what they are and see where they are, they should notice that each side (left, right, top, and bottom) have their own objective. With these 'rules heavy' maps (like DiM's maps (hope he doesn't mind me lumping myself into a category with him!)), you do need to do a bit more reading than other maps, but at the same time once you have done so, it all becomes very simple.


The difference between this and DiM's maps is that on AoM, AoR, only the bonuses are confusing and require BOB. The movement is simple and the objectives are clear. With Drug War though, the movement, bonuses and objectives all require consideration from the player. Add it up and you have a trifecta of obfuscation. You can say that a player will have to take a few minutes to read over the legend a few times but you are then selling the map and its popularity short.

Keep in mind the most successful restaurant in Los Angeles is Pink;s Hotdogs.
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Postby yeti_c on Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:45 pm

Telvannia wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
edbeard wrote:At the moment, it IS possible to hold an objective on your first go.


It isn't actually - if you're dealt with an objective then the game will reset and deal again...

C.


I think you mean, if you hold all the objectives, the game redeals, otherwise AoR would not work, as the game would not let you start with a castle...


"An Objective" is the whole objective - I didn't say "an objective territory"

C.
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Postby edbeard on Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:05 pm

umm most territories are starting neutral guys. It is IMPOSSIBLE to actually start with an objective. Oaktown was worried about the ease of gaining an objective. I was saying that it IS possible to hold that specific objective AFTER your first turn. However, by adding more neutrals to the main stash, that problem would be solved.


I dunno. It's hard for me to see all this stuff as that complicated. As I said, I'll try to get the wording to be more concise. That might help qwell some of your concerns.


There are no borders missing. Maybe you can explain what is confusing you specifically? Actually, perhaps it'd be better to just wait until I update.

One thing that might help would be making the Patrol part of the sector, in that, they are treated like all the other territories. Currently they connect to seemingly non-adjacent territories in their own sector.
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Postby edbeard on Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:19 am

Image


I hope this clears things up a bit


1. Made patrol cars into a normal territory inside the sector. no more rules attached to how they work inside a sector. So, hopefully this is clear from the lame graphics update I made.

2. Made patrol cars only able to attack each other up down left right.

3. Changed the legend to be more readable (hopefully).
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Postby edbeard on Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:42 am

good feedback so far on the latest version.......


Annnyway, I was sending messages with the artist back and forth


There's an obvious spacing issue and with the graphics it also presents a 'hard to get territory borders in' issue.

So, the artist (I won't presume to name him or show his art (although that might spark interest?)), suggested that all territories in the sector border each other. A couple territories would need special rules regarding this, but that's not too pressing at the moment.

I'd honestly prefer the setup as it is currently, but I'm trying to be open to everything and if there are no objections, it seems like a good route to follow.


I guess some issues would be if it would make the games too fast. The muscle territories which had acted as a buffer before are now almost useless in some cases. But, this could be worked around with bonuses to provide incentive.
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Postby yeti_c on Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:09 am

I dislike that I'm afraid - I reckon that would make it too open!

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Postby MrBenn on Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:15 am

Edbeard, I have to admit that this map doesn't grab me and make me want to play...

... Having said that, I've had a hard think about it, and I'm not sure that you should have the Patrol cars as starting points... Most people will be in the corner segments with no direct access to 'objective' territories - and anybody who starts with a Patrol car in the North, South, East or West (particularly the one next to the Driver in the North) has a major advantage towards securing the objective.

On another note, you could perhaps clear up the Patrol Car attack routes by having a picture of a car on the road (next to the Patrol Car territory), with attack lines linking the appropriate cars.
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Postby fumandomuerte on Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:45 pm

What about inserting an alley? They always appear on gangstas movies with the dealers runing from the police.

I like the idea, drugs are a real social issue, specially on this side of America (USA-Mexico border).

Go on.
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Postby redorangeyellow on Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:32 pm

babinecz wrote:i live in baltimore, nothin cool about this shit


i live in baltimore too. and you shouldn't really joke around with this
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