[Abandoned] - Era of the Three Kingdoms

[DiM]

thanks guys for clearing that up. live and learn anyway as gimil said back on topic.
here's my last post (edited to get rid of my ignorance towards english)

A. Graphics.

not much to say here. it looks very good. crisp fresh simple nice colours, in short, i like it.
however there are minor things i'd like to see improved:
1. you have 3 small legends of the continents. green has green text. that's good. but blue has black text while red has both red and black text. i think you should keep it consistent and make all the legends like the green one.
2. the rivers seem a bit pixelated especially around the bends. might wanna soften them up a bit. also i'd like to see some affluents (sp?) on those rivers to make them a bit more realistic
3. add a full stop at the end of the sentence. and perhaps the author.

B. Gameplay.

1. fist thing i noticed is the overpowered north. now i understand you wanted realism but that realism will kinda make the map be screwy. you don't see africa on classic map getting a +1 bonus and north america a +10 just because usa has a much better economy and army even if that would be realistic
waht i would do is add a one way connection from Yin Ping to liang. this will not only make Ling be harder to hold but it will also make the whole northern area harder to hold.
2. bei ping. 2 terits for a +1. not sure if i like it. the chances of getting that bonus right from the start are pretty big and i wouldn't want to face an opponent who gets such an easy bonus immediately. what i would do is add another terit. perhaps call it bei ping east. and keep the same 2 borders the continent has now. or do like wisse did on china and make one of the terits start as neutral. but i'd rather see 3 terits instead on adding a neutral.
3. i would increase central wei from 5 to 6.

[sam_levi_11]

lts mv ths tpc t t f ths thrd nd gt bck n tpc.

Anyone wanna buy a vowel?


Back on topic .. .. ..

yer the welsh language isnt exactly known for vowels....but i can barely say much in it

[iancanton]

cangwu and yulin need to be swapped round and the borders of the southern wu continent adjusted. the pearl river runs into the sea to the west of nanhai and does not go any further east. can u replace the eastern part of the river by mountains, as i have done in the mock-up below (thick brown line above nanhai)? i've also opened up an attack route between nanhai and guiyang to eliminate the nanhai dead-end, but i think the dead-end isn't a big issue if u don't like the gap between the mountains and the river.



my main source for the above changes is this map, which shows the position in ad 229, when hepu had been split into two commanderies for a short period.

http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/decr ... _map16.gif

ian.

[gimil]

cangwu and yulin need to be swapped round and the borders of the southern wu continent adjusted. the pearl river runs into the sea to the west of nanhai and does not go any further east. can u replace the eastern part of the river by mountains, as i have done in the mock-up below (thick brown line above nanhai)? i've also opened up an attack route between nanhai and guiyang to eliminate the nanhai dead-end, but i think the dead-end isn't a big issue if u don't like the gap between the mountains and the river.



my main source for the above changes is this map, which shows the position in ad 229, when hepu had been split into two commanderies for a short period.

http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/decr ... _map16.gif

ian.

Cheers ian, appreciated as always. Unforuntaly adding the river in your mock up wouldnt change the gameplay. Because I used the pen tool to create my contients it would be alot of work with no gain. Reducing the other river will be a drastic change to gameplay. Im happy to live with this inaccuarcy for the sake of maintaining gameplay.

[iancanton]

Reducing the other river will be a drastic change to gameplay. Im happy to live with this inaccuarcy for the sake of maintaining gameplay.

the change in gameplay is small, not drastic: there is one extra connection, between nanhai and guiyang. however, i'm not screaming for this attack route to be made.

if u want to maintain the same gameplay without spending ages on changing the artwork, then how about copying some of the mountains in the west and putting them between nanhai and guiyang (to represent the nanling mountains), then increasing their opacity, so that the river doesn't show through?

cangwu ought to be yulin and yu'lin ought to be cangwu.

we need more consistency with the wu names so that all of the syllables are joined together.

also, don't forget to replace the chinese character for east with the one that represents wu.

ian.

[gimil]

also, don't forget to replace the chinese character for east with the one that represents wu.

ian.

For some reason the symbol for WU wont copy onto photoshop. Ive made do with east until I time i reseach how to remedie this issues.

p.s. thanks for the rest of your comment ian.

[MrBenn]

also, don't forget to replace the chinese character for east with the one that represents wu.

ian.

For some reason the symbol for WU wont copy onto photoshop. Ive made do with east until I time i reseach how to remedie this issues.

p.s. thanks for the rest of your comment ian.

There must be a chinese character font that you could download from somewhere and use??

[MrBenn]

Gimil, there are still a few outstanding concerns about gameplay:

1. fist thing i noticed is the overpowered north. now i understand you wanted realism but that realism will kinda make the map be screwy. you don't see africa on classic map getting a +1 bonus and north america a +10 just because usa has a much better economy and army even if that would be realistic
waht i would do is add a one way connection from Yin Ping to liang. this will not only make Ling be harder to hold but it will also make the whole northern area harder to hold.

The bottleneck still bothers me. DiM, as always has a valid suggestion, although I'm not too sure how you would implement it... perhaps you could shift the mountains slightly, and have a similar style one-way attack from Yin Ping to Liang South? At the very least a 'mountain pass' or something between Liang South and Liang North might help.

2. bei ping. 2 terits for a +1. not sure if i like it. the chances of getting that bonus right from the start are pretty big and i wouldn't want to face an opponent who gets such an easy bonus immediately. what i would do is add another terit. perhaps call it bei ping east. and keep the same 2 borders the continent has now. or do like wisse did on china and make one of the terits start as neutral. but i'd rather see 3 terits instead on adding a neutral.

Another good suggestion, although I think this is more a matter of personal taste. It's only a +1, so I'd be less worried about the possibility of people starting with this bonus.

3. i would increase central wei from 5 to 6.

I'd consider increasing Big Blue to +6 or possibly +7.

if u want to maintain the same gameplay without spending ages on changing the artwork, then how about copying some of the mountains in the west and putting them between nanhai and guiyang (to represent the nanling mountains), then increasing their opacity, so that the river doesn't show through?

cangwu ought to be yulin and yu'lin ought to be cangwu.

Don't forget to swap territory names around in the red region as per iancanton's suggestion.

[sam_levi_11]

when is this map basedn must be post fan castle because wu have control of Jing, not shu. its also after Tian Shui as shu have it not wei.

[iancanton]

gimil, in the part of jing province north of changsha, i'm having trouble finding evidence of a territory called jing nan. in the map to which i link below, there's one called nan (which happens to be in jing) and another called jiangxia (which looks as if it's in the right place). do u agree with jiangxia?

http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/decr ... _map16.gif

this is close to where the battle of red cliffs was fought. to link our map with this battle, how about renaming as red cliffs the territory that is closest to the location, or do u want all of the names to be of administrative commanderies and not battles? i'm unsure whether the location is jing nan or yu zhang, but that river between jing nan and yu zhang ought to provide a clue.

I'd consider increasing Big Blue to +6 or possibly +7.

+7 makes sense because not only is central wei, by some margin, the sub-continent with most territories, but there is also a one-way attack against it.

ian.

[sam_levi_11]

i had similar troubles but i found another map(well, 3) which gave those, it seems that they are called different things by every map. its annoying

[iancanton]

sam, can u check? apart from the ones on gaming sites, the only maps i can find that have jing nan or jingnan refer to the period called five dynasties and ten kingdoms, in the 10th century. same name, same place, but 700 years later. is there is a reference to it in the novel (which i haven't read)? if so, then we can be confident that jingnan also existed in the 3rd century, though it's possible that it simply means the southern part of jing province (nan means south), which is the first part of jing province of which sun quan of wu gained control at shu's expense, and was not the name of any particular commandery.

ian.

[sam_levi_11]

this is extremly possible the map maker got mixed up and ill go with yours

[iancanton]

below is a map by dr rafe de crespigny (rdc) which shows all commanderies for the empire of wu in the year ad 229. in yang province, there are some significant differences from our map. i propose that we make the following alterations, after which everything falls into place for yang province.

jianye: shown by rdc as wu, but jianye is logical in our case because it's the capital city; split into jianye (eastern part) and danyang (western part)
wuxing: rename as xindu
yu zhang: rename as yuzhang
lu-ling: rename as luling and remove coastline; yuzhang and luling together cover roughly the same area as modern jiangxi province
chien an: rename as kuaiji; let it border jianye and extend the boundary to the river beside nanhai (roughly fujian province plus half of zhejiang)
lin hai: merge into luling or kuaiji; the county that is now called linhai, which is very close to jianye (not as shown), was created in ad 254

http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/decr ... _map16.gif

i'll need do a bit of research on shu to see if there is a way to split yueh sui, as u suggested early on.

ian.

[gimil]

My head hurts. Can I just make a map thats for having fun on? Rather than something of perfect historical meaning?

[Kaplowitz]

My head hurts. Can I just make a map thats for having fun on? Rather than something of perfect historical meaning?

You mean like something with animated bunnies? That's crazy talk!

[Ruben Cassar]

My head hurts. Can I just make a map thats for having fun on? Rather than something of perfect historical meaning?

Aren't you doing that already in European Revolution? :p

[yeti_c]

My head hurts. Can I just make a map thats for having fun on? Rather than something of perfect historical meaning?

Aren't you doing that already in European Revolution? :p

Trying to!

C.

[sam_levi_11]

yes ian...spaces are bad

[jako]

any news on this? looking forward to this gimil but ya better hurry, the mobs are gathering if u dont finish soon.

[iancanton]

My head hurts. Can I just make a map thats for having fun on? Rather than something of perfect historical meaning?

i'm sure ur head would hurt at that time of night, trying to figure out how to make a map for having fun that is also of perfect historical meaning!

anyway, i've come up with a name for the south-eastern part of yuesui commandery (after it is split in two): it is zhuti. as well as yuesui, zhuti also borders the current zhuti (which ought to be called zangke), nanman, yulin (which is called cangwu just now prior to the name swap) and jiaozhi.

Shu-Han Dynasty possessed 7 commandaries in Southwest China: Jianning-Yongchang-Yunnan-Xinggu in Yunnan, Zangke in Guizhou/Yunnan, Yuesui in Sichuan, and Zhuti (established in Yunnan in 205 AD).

http://www.republicanchina.org/Vietnamese.html

it appears that the southern yi bonus region can be called laixiang.

When Liu Bei seized power at Chengdu in 214, he established the divisional office of Laixiang to administer the southern part of his territory, and the campaigns of Zhuge Liang of the mid-220s destroyed the non-Chinese alliance led by Meng Huo.

http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/decr ... KWJin.html

jei ting ought to be jieting. as sam notes, spaces are bad!

since we're seeing some pressure to hurry up (thanks, jako), i'm happy to trust that the territories are good in the kingdom of wei.

ian.

[jako]

its impossible to make this historically accurate as the entire era was not that well documented and ud might as well go with the novel if u want to be as accurate as possible.

[gimil]

its impossible to make this historically accurate as the entire era was not that well documented and ud might as well go with the novel if u want to be as accurate as possible.

Very good point! I forgot about the lack of solid well document history on the era!

[gimil]

Going to place this in the heap on a vacation!

going to get BI and C4 done before I come back to it.

[sam_levi_11]

its impossible to make this historically accurate as the entire era was not that well documented and ud might as well go with the novel if u want to be as accurate as possible.

Very good point! I forgot about the lack of solid well document history on the era!

thats why we have about 9 maps all conflicting each other.

Iv gone for the novel as far as i can whereas ian is going for history throughout.