[Official] Brazil REVAMP [Quenched]

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[Official] Brazil REVAMP [Quenched]

Postby RjBeals on Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:51 am

Now Available on the START A GAME SCREEN!

Image Image Image Image Image

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image

Image.

The 2 images above are my final images. I think this map has lived it's life. I've addressed all feedback and fixed what needed fixed. I'm done with this map. I've gotten some really positive feedback from it - I think when it's launched the general site will favor it over Marv's. Hope you guys understand, but I don't have the time or patience anymore to nit-pick this map apart. If there is a graphical problem relating to the xml, then let me know - otherwise, I've completed this map.

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ORIGINAL POST

Previous Maps
http://www.rjbeals.com/Brazil/Brazil-RjBeals-Rev-03.jpg
http://www.rjbeals.com/Brazil/Brazil-Rj ... ound2a.jpg[

Original (Marv's) Brazil
http://www.conquerclub.com/maps/Brazil.L.jpg

Wow.. 385 votes! I guess the community likes the map. I know Marv has some issues with this map.

Marvaddin wrote:RJ, like I said before, I intend to use the veto "super"-powers to the tilt, and this because a simple reason: Im not minimally convinced its necessary. It doesn't change too much the map proportions like it did to Portugal and Italy (and even doing that, its not something people from a country would love; I saw some of the reactions in the Portuguese forum, and I agree to them). See, you can decrease or remove the square around the map, put the image borders nearer to the map, decrease even the map a bit, because in most territories we have free space. Im sure you can do it without the tilt.

About the colours in the title, and the lack of national symbol, well, if your map really wins, we can discuss it properly. Like someone said, we have now 2 legends. I love the minimap, but I know we need have the continent names. How about putting them in the minimap, having some free space to the flag? Well, eliminating the tilt we will anyway have some free space in the bottom right corner. And the title, well, I can live with that, but before we can see what are the options having green and yellow only, or with blue. If this one is really the best... well, we will see.

A little suggestion: although I like the background, Brazil is not a big jungle like some people think. We have cities with +10M people, factories, etc. What you think about having the jungle in one side of the background (W side, preferentially) and other things (like even the ocean) in the other?

Beyond that, some misspelled names, and the letters "p" and "g" being a bit alike, I loved the map! Congratulations!


I would like to discuss the tilt, the background (green) and the title a little more. If you are absolutely firm about not having a tilt on the map, then I'll rework it - but I feel it doesn't take away from the map. I wonder what the "reactions in the Portuguese forum" were all about?
Last edited by RjBeals on Fri May 15, 2009 11:55 am, edited 18 times in total.
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Re: Brazil Official Revamp [I, GP]

Postby gimil on Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:07 am

Pst, you get a backdoor entry to the main foundry!

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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby oaktown on Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:56 am

again, nice work rj.

About the tilt, would it bother marv less if you had a compass rose pointing out true north?
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby gimil on Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:57 am

oaktown wrote:again, nice work rj.

About the tilt, would it bother marv less if you had a compass rose pointing out true north?


Marv is a fussy man!
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby whitestazn88 on Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:18 am

congrats rj.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby multiplayertim on Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:26 am

maybe you cud use a different border the current 1's a bit ugly. I think the tilt looks fine but i suppose Marv has the final say
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby gimil on Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:29 am

Sorry to ruin the party but can the congragulations go over to the revamp competition thread?

Let this thread be used for development. This map stuff is serious business you know! ;)
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby RjBeals on Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:57 am

multiplayertim wrote:maybe you cud use a different border the current 1's a bit ugly. I think the tilt looks fine but i suppose Marv has the final say


As in the square map border?
I could try something else if you really think it's ugly.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby lanyards on Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:59 am

RjBeals wrote:
multiplayertim wrote:maybe you cud use a different border the current 1's a bit ugly. I think the tilt looks fine but i suppose Marv has the final say


As in the square map border?
I could try something else if you really think it's ugly.
I don't like it much either. But I do like the colors in it, you should use the same colors if you try a different border.

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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby oaktown on Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:06 pm

multiplayertim wrote:maybe you cud use a different border the current 1's a bit ugly.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's ugly, but now that it's been pointed out it does use hard shapes with right angles while the rest of the map is much softer.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby jiminski on Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:14 pm

I really like the border.. colour and pattern.
I would say though that it does evoke Southern/Central African culture more than Brazilian... no idea why it but it seems more like tribal Africa somehow.. perhaps of Zulu origin.

for the Tilt.. Well i would be really sad if we lost that!
i kind of understand where Marv's is coming from .. but i think his view is based on transposing it within the mind into the whole of South America .. if you do that it is a little jarring.
But i do not do that, i consider the map as much an aesthetic celebration of Brazil, as a representation of the preconceived.

For me the Balance of the Tilted map and it's relationship with the also tilted mini are joyous. They allude to one of those matryoshka Russian dolls, that fit one inside another.. again don't ask me to explain ;) ..
but the baby map fits under the armpit of it's father.. perfect!
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby WorldConquer587 on Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:19 pm

Rj can you please change the territory named of Rio Negro it kind of insults me and I don't approve of it.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby RjBeals on Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:24 pm

WorldConquer587 wrote:Rj can you please change the territory named of Rio Negro it kind of insults me and I don't approve of it.


Gimil - can you delete this post?

[edit] - I really can't believe that you're serious. But if you are, you need to take it up with Marvaddin - he is the original creator, and is the one who named the territories.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby gimil on Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:28 pm

RjBeals wrote:
WorldConquer587 wrote:Rj can you please change the territory named of Rio Negro it kind of insults me and I don't approve of it.


Gimil - can you delete this post?

[edit] - I really can't believe that you're serious. But if you are, you need to take it up with Marvaddin - he is the original creator, and is the one who named the territories.


The post isn't flame or trolling, I actually consider it a valid request worthy of disussion. I was never aware the word "negro" was offensive. But apparently it is. Perhaps marv can shed a brazilian view or this.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby RjBeals on Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:34 pm

This was discussed in the revamp thread already. Valid points were given as to why it was chosen as a name.

Hellmanns wrote:
WorldConquer587 wrote:[mod edit]No need to quote the entire first post[/mod edit]

I THINK ALL OF THOSE MAPS ARE OFFENSIVE!! THE REASON I SAY THAT IS BECAUSE ALL OF YOU MAPS HAVE A TERRITORY CALLED Rio "Negro" . I'm an african american and if you don't change the name of that territory I shall report you.


Rio Negro meets Rio Solimões and form the Amazon River (Rio Amazonas), the biggest in the world (in quantity of water), so there is nothing racist about it...
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby ZeakCytho on Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:34 pm

I would also like to see Rio Negro's name changed, but for totally different reasons. Rio Negro, from what I can tell on google and wikipedia, is not a region of Brazil or a city, but a river. One of the criteria in making this map was that nothing natural can be used for impassables, since it was a purely political map. So why not use purely political divisions? I believe there are a number of inaccurately named/placed territories on this map that should be fixed prior to quenching, and it is completely possible to make this map more accurate without changing gameplay at all.

The map made by Mjinga for the competition, shown below, has territories named after the largest city in the region they are encompassed by. If you don't want to do the divisions by city, that's fine, but could you do something to make it more accurate?
Click image to enlarge.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby Incandenza on Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:47 pm

WorldConquer587 wrote:Rj can you please change the territory named of Rio Negro it kind of insults me and I don't approve of it.


Rio Negro, actual place: Wikipedia

Take it up with the Brazilians if you don't like it. Besides, it's almost impossible to take this sort of thing seriously. No one's this sensitive without an agenda of some sort.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby Marvaddin on Thu Aug 07, 2008 11:53 pm

Hey all

About the tilt: although its not something really offensive to national feelings, I dont like when my country's shape is presented in... hmmmm... non traditional forms. As you can guess, I have drawn tons of Brazilian maps with my own hands since when I was a young boy (school homeworks, of course), and its hard to see it tilted, lol. I can imagine how would sound strange to the Americans the USA map with the east side to the top, for example (lol, it would be strange even to me). So, I dislike tilts in any maps, and I think everyone dislike them, at least in maps you see very often, like the map of your own country. In some cases, they can be useful, specially with the maximum map size... Portugal, Chile, Sweden, etc, there are very countries with a dimension much bigger than the other, and it can help, but like I said, I dont think its the case, and this is the main problem: the tilt is not necessary, so why have it? The single drawback of removing the tilt is giving more work to rj, I think. Of course its a big drawback, but I know he can handle with it ;)

About territories names.
The first comment is: I will still spend some time checking them again, and other Brazilians are invited to help me in this task.
The Rio Negro name, like you already know, means Black River in Portuguese, and there is not even a minimum amount of racism in this name. Rio Negro is a river that form Amazon River (Rio Amazonas, in Portuguese), and it has this name because it has really dark waters, duh!
About the name being of just a river, well, you are wrong. :P
Let me present you the Brazilian state of Amazonas:

Image

As its our biggest state, in the CC map it was splitted in 4 territories: Manaus, Rio Negro, Solimões and Madeira. In the image I just posted, the blue area is a sub-state region called Rio Negro (I mixed it to some other sub-areas and gave the name that makes more sense). And just giving names of cities is not the best answer too. I realized the effort of Mjinga, but see: the rainforest dont have sooo many big cities. Benjamin Constant is a city with like 25k people, and so most even Brazilians ignore its existence, lol. I wouldnt give a name that people that know the country would think "wtf is Benjamin Constant?", right? Rio Negro, otherwise, is the name of that blue area, AND is a famous river, so, it would make sense.

But again, I will check the names again, and anyone that knows the area and wants to help is welcome. :D

Any other question I can answer for now? 8-)
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby Mjinga on Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:03 am

I picked the names of cities actually for different reasons. I used state capitals where I could, and large cities in the regions that I was working with, but sometimes if I could find a city that was (according to possibly non-Brazilian sites :oops: ) of more cultural importance, I used that one.

But in any case, I used only city names. I really don't like how the original one uses cities for some territ names, states for others, and river names for others. It just seems very inconsistent... I'm not so attached to my choices of names, I just like that they're all cities. :D

About Rio Negro... um, it's very clearly not a racial insult. It's not even pronounced the same way as Americans would if they were insulting African Americans. Why does it bother you, WorldConquer587?
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby pepperonibread on Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:38 am

Huh. I'm actually starting to see were marv's coming from... tilt a U.S. map about 27 degrees and you'll see why he's got a problem.
Still love the tilt though, it'd be sad to see it go. It seems to make everything fit together in this map, something some of the other Brazils didn't have.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby RjBeals on Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:39 am

I also see Marv's point. I will rework the map and remove the tilt. Give me some time though - it's not as simple as just clicking and rotating the entire image.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby jiminski on Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:40 am

pepperonibread wrote:Huh. I'm actually starting to see were marv's coming from... tilt a U.S. map about 27 degrees and you'll see why he's got a problem.
Still love the tilt though, it'd be sad to see it go. It seems to make everything fit together in this map, something some of the other Brazils didn't have.


RjBeals wrote:I also see Marv's point. I will rework the map and remove the tilt. Give me some time though - it's not as simple as just clicking and rotating the entire image.



It is a real shame if Marv is holding us all to this... (perhaps we could change the names on the map and call it the map of 'Ancient Chelmsford'.. so we can get rid of the Super Veto.... joking.. half joking.. I understand the tradition of ultimate control for the original creator in spite of the rest of the worlds opinion ;) )

However the point regarding the US is completely moot; the shape of the US has a balance and a symmetry to it.. or at least no gain in symmetry would be made by titling it.. turn is upside-down; maybe but to what gain?
Brazil is wonky in shape, by using the tilt to square the top off and paralleling it with the Baby-map, (you could draw a diagonal line from the left bottom corner to the top right corner, which would fall between the most relevant symmetrical points in both maps) it alludes to a subtle, progressive visual harmony.

In my opinion and without the shackles locked by 15th century European, Cartographic precepts. The map gains a great deal from this simple tilt and RJ should be allowed to remain true to his Aesthetic discovery.
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby Marvaddin on Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:21 am

jiminski wrote:It is a real shame if Marv is holding us all to this... (perhaps we could change the names on the map and call it the map of 'Ancient Chelmsford'.. so we can get rid of the Super Veto.... joking.. half joking.. I understand the tradition of ultimate control for the original creator in spite of the rest of the worlds opinion ;) )

However the point regarding the US is completely moot; the shape of the US has a balance and a symmetry to it.. or at least no gain in symmetry would be made by titling it.. turn is upside-down; maybe but to what gain?
Brazil is wonky in shape, by using the tilt to square the top off and paralleling it with the Baby-map, it alludes to a subtle, progressive visual harmony.

In my opinion and without the shackles locked by 15th century European, Cartographic precepts. The map gains a great deal from this simple tilt and RJ should be allowed to remain true to his Aesthetic discovery.


I was not suggesting to add a tilt on US map. This is a way so you can realize how strange your country map can look with a tilt. Like you said, a US map up-to-down would still have balance and simmetry, so, why not? Just put an arrow pointing to North and its ok, isnt it? Now, see if it dont hurt the accustomed eyes. For what gain, you ask, and I return you the same question. Is Brazil gaining simmetry with the tilt? No to me, its still Brazil assimmetric shape with a tilt. And why do you really think we will have the baby map in final version? Its open to discussion too, as we now have 2 legends. I assume that, if you see visual harmony in the tilted Brazil map, its because you didnt look at it without the tilt a million times like me. A serious suggestion: try get a map of your own country and discover some aesthetic harmony adding a tilt to it. I would like to see what we would get.

And many thanks, rj, by understanding the point and redoing it. :)

Mjinga, I have realized your names criteria. But, there are some problems...
When I first did the map, I would put states names, of course, but, some of them were splitted, so it wouldnt be accurate even giving the state name to a part of it, but I kept the state name on the ones that were not splitted. And what to do with the other territories? I tried to put names of sub-state areas, but in some cases the name of capital city (or important city) would fit better, I thought, specially when the area name is long or unknown for most Brazilians. Just cities names would be strange, because there are some areas without any really important cities, so the area name could prevail in these cases. Oh, and I also had to think about names size. Like Natal territory. Its a state, and Natal is its capital city. I put the city name because the state name is "Rio Grande do Norte", which is very long. (Yeah, thats a state name, not a river name, although for now you all know rio = river, lol. There are many areas in Brazil with names related to important rivers.)

So, in fact, I think that find just one criteria is nearly impossible, and I will try to find something that makes sense, and for that Im open to suggestions :D
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby RjBeals on Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:03 am

Marvaddin wrote: And why do you really think we will have the baby map in final version? Its open to discussion too, as we now have 2 legends.
I think there is enough space for both legends, as the minimap doesn't have the names on it, just the bonuses. I prefer the mini-map style to the color block style. Especially when the colors are close in tone, and there are color blind people on the site.

(My 2 cents).
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Re: [Official] Brazil REVAMP [I, GP]

Postby whitestazn88 on Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:52 am

i liked the tilt... but i guess marv does have that super veto power...

and i agree that there is more than enough room for both legends. i like legends with both a minimap and descriptions anyway
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