[26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby maique on Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:19 pm

Thing is, at least in my opinion, in the feedback system, people left feedback when they had something to say. Now, I'd even go so far as saying some people are rating compulsively, not because the other user struck them in some way, and this detracts from the relevance of having such a system. Or maybe it doesn't, maybe it'll work as intended and the average rating will somehow represent the user in some relevant way.
I'm not against any of it, it is ultimately the designer's choice. But since I'm allowed to express my opinion... Heck, if I really dislike using it or simply do not see the point, I can just refrain from using it.
The tags, in principle, are not a bad idea. I even think they could be applied to a renovated feedback system whereby a user could compose his feedback by selecting tags (as though they were template feedback points) if these expressed his view, even streamlining the process, or he could choose to write his own if he found the idea he wanted to express would be better served by writing his own feedback.
As i've said before, I still think the permitted feedback length would have to be shorter than it previously was so as to drive the commenter to leave more relevant feedback.

Even the numbers associated with feedback had a relevance that the ratings average cannot have. You could read something about the player, through how many people had bothered to give that user feedback and how many of these had something positive or negative to say, and this was nicely complemented by the user rank and even the recent addition of medals (except for the wretched ratings medal).

I'm sure, eventually, one way or another, even the ratings average, coupled with the tags, would/will become more relevant, though I doubt I'll ever find it half as useful as the feedback numbers and the feedback itself.

But since I doubt very much that the designers are at all interested in reverting in any way, shape or form even to a revamped feedback system, the next few months will tell
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby 2261981 on Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:50 am

ui
Last edited by 2261981 on Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby awc on Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:48 pm

i think, like many others, ratings should be relative to your own scale.

let min = minimum stars you have ever left for anyone (in relevant category, e.g. gameplay)
let max = maximum stars you have ever left for anyone (ditto)
let raw = raw rating you left for other player

"raw" should be normalized to "norm" as follows:

Code: Select all
if (min == max) then norm = 3; // boundary condition
else if (raw < min) then norm = 1; // if lowest rating yet, then normalize to 1 star
else if (raw > max) then norm = 5; // if highest rating yet, then normalize to 5 star
else norm = round(4*(raw-min)/(max-min))+1; // else calculate normalized stars


under this system, having 3 stars would really mean "average". getting 4 stars would actually take some work; it would mean something to have 4 stars. and getting 5 stars would mean you're everybody's favorite player. this makes a lot more sense to me. with the current rating system, players are encouraged to "shut up and play"... because if no one has anything against you, you're probably gonna get 4-5 stars.
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby maique on Wed Jul 30, 2008 2:27 am

lackattack wrote:Headlines

  • You can attach descriptive tags to a rating. This should let a rating communicate more about the player without opening up the door to all that abusive language and nonsense we've seen with written feedback. The initial list of 35 tags is sure to evolve, so please share your recommendations for tags in the Suggestions & Bug report forum.


Damn me if looking at 35 (soon to be more) tags to pick 4 isn't more of a PAIN than just writing a little comment. If This is just to not have moderation... just GET RID OF MODERATION!!

You know, I don't tend to be rude, but if some people can't deal with rude language, they can just get some flippin browser filter, or you guys create a switchable filter to weed out rude language. SURELY that'd be easier than all this. Then you'd only have a single file to update with all the swearing and cursing that those sensitive souls can't bare to read.
Would still be simpler than creating tags that please each user and forcing everyone to go through a list of all the tags you could conjure up to see which four are more appropriate. Not that most people will care, mind you. Heck, this is even more prone to abuse since the jerks who couldn't care less will probably just call everyone cheaters and sore losers and backstabbers; you know, the usual not making any attempt to be faithful to reality and picking the negative ones.

And I wonder where I can create a petition to get rid of the ratings medal. Unless you're fine with the ratings system "belonging" to the compulsive/judgmental ones, instead of the average-joe user. Not that I know what the average user's like, but if he's anything like me, he doesn't really want to and won't rate everything that moves, only the ones that strike him (in this case, me) as rateable for some reason - the old have-something-to-say-otherwise-don't-say-anything-at-all.

I'm not gonna get in to how i think feedback could be improved all over again. But I don't really see any direction that would improve the rating/tagging mess either, except maybe reverse.

But then again, this is all merely my opinion and I don't mean to demean all the hard work the site team has undertaken.
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby lancehoch on Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:16 am

The problem with this, is there are ways around a filter. For instance if someone wanted to say f*ck (notice the filter), they could type fcuk or fvck and people would still understand what they mean, but the filter would not catch those. Also, how would you say assassin, this would come up as ******in. Filters are not the way to go for game feedback/ratings.
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby hulmey on Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:22 am

lancehoch wrote:The problem with this, is there are ways around a filter. For instance if someone wanted to say f*ck (notice the filter), they could type fcuk or fvck and people would still understand what they mean, but the filter would not catch those. Also, how would you say assassin, this would come up as ******in. Filters are not the way to go for game feedback/ratings.


Im quite certain that CC could put in all the necessary filters to do the job!
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby t-o-m on Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:22 pm

I like the new ratings, although a little comment box next to it would be good.
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby hulmey on Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:33 pm

t-o-m wrote:I like the new ratings, although a little comment box next to it would be good.


There is a comment box next to it. YOu just need to click on "respond" :D
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby Androidz on Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:48 pm

wow some1 suggested a great idea to make this new rateing even better here:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=57552
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby maique on Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:11 pm

hulmey wrote:
lancehoch wrote:The problem with this, is there are ways around a filter. For instance if someone wanted to say f*ck (notice the filter), they could type fcuk or fvck and people would still understand what they mean, but the filter would not catch those. Also, how would you say assassin, this would come up as ******in. Filters are not the way to go for game feedback/ratings.


Im quite certain that CC could put in all the necessary filters to do the job!



I do think filters could initially do at least a reasonable job, and could be improved quite easily. Mind you, I only mentioned filters as an afterthought, the main point being "just get rid of moderation (accompanied by a few more changes, previously suggested) and be done with it".
And I want to clarify that when I suggested filtering, I meant it as a display filter. If someone wrote f*ck, then f*ck is what would appear written to the unfiltering viewer. The filter would be an option for the reader not wanting to be subjected to foul language, not a form of censorship.

The assassin/******in problem could be very, very easily overcome in the filtering.
So could the type of variations you mention, to more or less of an extent.
But, are people really that anal about swearing? Anyway, this would give the more susceptible the option not to be so easily offended. It wouldn't save their sensible eyes and minds from metaphor and allegory, but I frankly don't give a shit (do you like how I gratuitously swore just then?)
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby TinusArov on Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:42 pm

these descriptive tags r coo
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby john9blue on Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:42 pm

Nice job with the updates, but I think that there should only be 3 or 4 stars instead of five. Also, get rid of the ratings medals, because they encourage unnecessary ratings. Plus, there ought to be an RSS feed for the "Headlines" column. :)
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby ctgottapee on Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:57 am

good effort lack, your making strides in the right direction....

--Teammate rating--
should be AUTOMATED by giving everyone seperate Team Scores/Ranking and Individual Scores/Rankings; it is very simple. team games count towards your team score, indy games count only toward you indy score.


-Star ratings-
they suck; i suggested Thumbs Up/Neutral/Down, but i think someone else earlier in this thread nailed it better
have only one rating called "Game Experience:" with three different ratings: "Impressed - Satisfied - Disappointed"
the tags or written feedback can explain it any further if need be.
Impressive = I would seek out and recommend others to play with/against this player
Satisfied = I have no objections to playing with/against this quality player again, nor should other players
Disappointed = I will refrain from joining games with this player and suggest other players avoid them too

your ratings score would be the result of two numbers:
percentage of people rating you Impressive / percentage of people rating you disappointing
so your score would be something like 21% impressed / 10% disappointed for a score of "2.1"
an ideal score would be 25% impressed / 5% disappointed = "5.0" rating

also, players will have a rating based on the ratings they give, ie your a 2.1 rated player, and you give 3.4 ratings
this self moderates the feedback systems as players who give excessive Impressed/disappointed ratings can be monitored automatically.


--Backdoor written feedback--
you do realize that by allowing written response comments, you are basically implementing the old feedback system, just making it a tad harder to find. one can respond anyway they like to any feedback, so you can just leave your comments in your response to their rating. i think you will find that you'll have the same moderation issues, as it is likely that people will respond/revenge a poor rating with an abusive written response.
of course, I BELIEVE written feedback should be allowed and moderated on its content and not its merrit, just like any forum post.


--Moaning about feedback your left--
first, you need to get a fucking backbone and second you can just get over it. this is not preschool where everybody is special and everybody wins. if someone thinks you suck, then they have a right to that opinion. you can question its validity in your response, but you can't cry to mommy admin about it.

i don't understand why it was such a problem in the past, moderating feedback. once someone violates written feedback standars a few times, your turn it off. forum members are not idiots, they can discern if a written piece of feedback is valid or just a tirade
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby milwood on Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:16 pm

I agree with this player. I love the new attendance feature but the rest of the system gets dumber with each iteration. To protest, I have withdrawn all feedback I have issued to date for everyone and am not giving any more feedback. I think attendance plus a single additional rating of good/neutral/bad would be great. If your goal is to not arbitrate comments, then I think you could either not have the comment or have a feedback bullet list to pick from as you do now. I think no comments but leave the wall so people who care about their reputation can self moderate instead of complaining to you. But it will give people a place to vent at idiots and get it off their chest.

I will accept that the good/bad teammate tag might be useful too. But I have not tried team games yet, so I'll leave judgment up to those who have.

Summary: implement simplest possible feedback that does not require moderation

maique wrote:...
As for the scale, here's what I think:

    The scale should be cut down to 3 - positive, neutral and negative (wonder where i got that from...) or good, neutral, bad (notice how i don't use the word average). As another user said, you can think of it as a rating of the rater's experience of that user.

    Now that you've already managed to drop the attendance and teamwork ratings, with just a little nudge, you can get rid of two of the others and go back to having only one rating, now that you've introduced tags to descriptively complement the rating. Is it really that necessary to have Fairplay, Gameplay and Attitude?

    If you do put it down to 3 "stars", i think the feedback numbering system was a lot nicer instead of the average that's currently used (just an opinion) and that, whether or not you include the neutrals as well, you could just have a sum of all the positive (, neutral) and negative ratings a person has received next to their screen name (as you did before).

    There's no shame in leaving no feedback, and I think fluff feedback is part of the problem with the current system. I think the ratings medal should be eliminated as soon as possible.
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby Loudawg on Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:09 am

another suggestion would be ... to also have what the average feedback rating that a player has left for others, so to avoid playing against players that continually leave bad feedback for others .........

THANK YOU FOR ALL OF YOUR EFFORTS LACK AND THE REST OF THE PEOPLE AT CC !!!!!
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby mpjh on Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:20 am

New rating system is hunky dory :P
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby azezzo on Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:45 pm

i think the additional tags of aggressive player, and conservative player would be beneficial.

the attendance rating is ok, but it would be nice if c.c. could implement a surrender button , in a 2 player game anyways, so that you wouldnt have to drag out a game unnecesarrilly and your attendance rating wouldnt be lowered for missing turns.
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby ManBungalow on Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:31 pm

Ratings are a fantastic improvement Thanks LackAttack
However I received a heap of really bad ratings from several names (one person though) and incidentally got kicked for multi-accounting.
It seems that this one person put their best efforts into giving everyone bad ratings.
I'm not gonna start crying cos I got a few bad ratings but it's something that could be looked at.
If someone gets kicked any ratings they have left get deleted maybe?
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby Ray Rider on Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:58 pm

lackattack wrote:There is still one remaining issue that we have yet to tackle: the fact that different people rate based on different scales (i.e. some typically leave 5s others typically leave 3s).

Which is why I've quit rating people for the time being.
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby Genghis.Kalm on Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:34 am

Perhaps one of the statistics, in addition to "fair play, game play, and attitude," could be "average rating left for others." That score would be used to calculate the players own total rating as well.

It is essentially, showing if someone is a particulary harsh judge of others. It would also create an incentive to use a base of 5 rather than 3's.

Thoughts?
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby Raf_THFC on Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:26 pm

One improvement I'd like to see is the attendance % listed next to the rating in the game finder. Mainly because that's my key rating - the others tend to be objective or misleading due to some players giving 1's to people they lose to, or even just everyone.
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby cre8tiff on Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:35 pm

yeti_c wrote:
hulmey wrote:opinions are like farts, every1 has one


Jesus christ - get the quote right... your version just doesn't make sense.

It's

Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.

C.


I have a fart stored in a jar by the door. You know, in case of emergencies.


Doesn't everyone? :-k
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby jiminski on Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:55 am

cre8tiff wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
hulmey wrote:opinions are like farts, every1 has one


Jesus christ - get the quote right... your version just doesn't make sense.

It's

Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.

C.


I have a fart stored in a jar by the door. You know, in case of emergencies.


Doesn't everyone? :-k


i do that too.. It's cheaper than a guarddog!

It is the same principle as the old Arapaho Burglar alarm: they placed the fart of a medicine-man by the entrance to the teepee (actually they kept it in a buffalo scrotum due to their lack of silica) when the intruder stepped on the Buffalo Scrotum it omitted the pungent 'breath of the ancestors' and also gave off a loud noise (due to the use of a dried, prairie-dog sphincter opening at one end) alerting the inhabitance to danger.*

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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby azezzo on Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:01 pm

the comments (tags) are a bit too generic, i think there should be more descriptive choices
with 23000 or so members, obviously the few choices we have dont quite cover everyone.
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Re: [26-Jul-2008] Ratings Reloaded

Postby dcowboys055 on Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:24 am

How about a tag for when you leave ratings that somehow explains "this person will give the game to someone else to lose less points"? I'm a bit sick of this happening to me and would like to leave some ratings with that tag.
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