Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby laci_mae on Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:22 am

mibi wrote:oi,

The legend clearly states, "Hole the gang leader AND 6 members"

So, the gang leader, 1 and 6 other members is 7 members. You held the gang leader and 5 others.


Great map mibi!

Let me throw in my two cents on this continued confusion with the gang bonuses. The legend is worded clearly, but BOB is not worded so clearly. If BOB would say "Latin Kings + 4 members (1)" instead of "5 Latin Kings (1)" it would make a lot more sense. The other kink is that BOB counts the members even if you don't hold the leader. This is helpful in deciding whether to take the leader, but also confusing when trying to sort out exactly what BOB is saying your bonuses are. I, however, have no idea what type of XML genius is needed to accomplish these semantic improvements.

Best,
Laci
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:41 am

laci_mae wrote:
mibi wrote:oi,

The legend clearly states, "Hole the gang leader AND 6 members"

So, the gang leader, 1 and 6 other members is 7 members. You held the gang leader and 5 others.


Great map mibi!

Let me throw in my two cents on this continued confusion with the gang bonuses. The legend is worded clearly, but BOB is not worded so clearly. If BOB would say "Latin Kings + 4 members (1)" instead of "5 Latin Kings (1)" it would make a lot more sense. The other kink is that BOB counts the members even if you don't hold the leader. This is helpful in deciding whether to take the leader, but also confusing when trying to sort out exactly what BOB is saying your bonuses are. I, however, have no idea what type of XML genius is needed to accomplish these semantic improvements.

Best,
Laci


Nowt to do with BOB - that's to do with the XML naming structure...

Also - if you're also not quite sure how to use BOB correctly I suggest you read the help file - BOB clearly shows that "4 Latin Kings [1]" has a 1 bonus - whereas "3 Latin Kings" doesn't have a bonus.

C.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby mibi on Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:49 am

e_i_pi wrote:Great map, I've been playing it a bit recently. Which leads me to an observation. A fair few circles aren't centered (on the small map). I understand that it's difficult to centre exactly properly, as the small map is anti-aliased, but some of these are obviously out.


It's prison, some of the inmates are... unstable. Their circles are not quite even circles which makes centering rather impossible.

waseemalim wrote:I would suggest increasing the warden + gas chamber bonus to +8 and keep gashamber - warden at -5.

Reason: It just isnt worth it as it stands.


Really? The thing about the gaschamber and warden is that if you spend your time going after the warden, and then securing the guard area, chances are you won't have many gang leaders to increase your bonus with. So the +5 becomes very valuable. It is a risky move for sure but a bit nessasary if you really hope to dominate from the warden. I am open to a +6 or +7 but +8 might be a bit high. Though if the map changes go through and there is a new entrance to the guard area, closer to the gas chamber, this increases the risk of the gas chamber, so the reward should go up.

I would like to hear others peoples thoughs on this though.

Incandenza wrote:I still feel like guard 501 should be a 1 or 2...


Any reason? I like the idea of gen pop being kind of isolated, a pressure cooker. It is hard to get external forces in there, so if you don't maintain your reputation in the gen pop, then you are a bit fucked. If it were 2 or 1, then people would neglect the gen pop until it was time to rush in from the yard.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby laci_mae on Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:22 pm

yeti_c wrote:
laci_mae wrote:
mibi wrote:oi,

The legend clearly states, "Hole the gang leader AND 6 members"

So, the gang leader, 1 and 6 other members is 7 members. You held the gang leader and 5 others.


Great map mibi!

Let me throw in my two cents on this continued confusion with the gang bonuses. The legend is worded clearly, but BOB is not worded so clearly. If BOB would say "Latin Kings + 4 members (1)" instead of "5 Latin Kings (1)" it would make a lot more sense. The other kink is that BOB counts the members even if you don't hold the leader. This is helpful in deciding whether to take the leader, but also confusing when trying to sort out exactly what BOB is saying your bonuses are. I, however, have no idea what type of XML genius is needed to accomplish these semantic improvements.

Best,
Laci


Nowt to do with BOB - that's to do with the XML naming structure...

Also - if you're also not quite sure how to use BOB correctly I suggest you read the help file - BOB clearly shows that "4 Latin Kings [1]" has a 1 bonus - whereas "3 Latin Kings" doesn't have a bonus.

C.


Why thanks C. I am perfectly capable of understanding BOB. :P I was merely suggesting that many of the concerns raised by others indicate that the wording of the bonuses per BOB is slightly confusing.

L
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby LPSanta on Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:08 am

Agreeing with one of the previous posts, there might be a counting bug. I'll monitor it as a game I'm in progresses, but here is what I saw so far:

I had the boss for La Cosa Nostra, "Don Vichi"

At the beginning of the turn I also had the following Cosa Nostra (in addition to the boss):
1) Frankie Bones
2) Paulie
3) Lil Joey
4) Saul
5) Vito

The Game Log reads that I received 1 troops for holding 4 Cosa Nostra, when I actually held 5.

Of course the bonus for three, four, or five is the same.
(+1 for 3 members, and +4 for 6 members).

I took another Cosa Nostra that turn for six, so I might see next turn if I get the proper +4 bonus for six next round....

UPDATE: When I captured one more for six Cosa Nostra (in addition to boss), I received the proper +4 bonus.
Last edited by LPSanta on Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby Incandenza on Mon Oct 27, 2008 7:03 pm

mibi wrote:
Incandenza wrote:I still feel like guard 501 should be a 1 or 2...


Any reason? I like the idea of gen pop being kind of isolated, a pressure cooker. It is hard to get external forces in there, so if you don't maintain your reputation in the gen pop, then you are a bit fucked. If it were 2 or 1, then people would neglect the gen pop until it was time to rush in from the yard.


Well, given the importance of gen pop, it just seems cheeky that someone trying to break the big smoke bonus would have to go through an extra neutral 5 to get back into gen pop. Basically it only hurts the guy trying to get in, because once he goes through and kills the guard, then whoever was already in gen pop can just roll that advance back up. Besides, even if the guard were a 1, I doubt that people would neglect gen pop.

I just want to make it a wee bit harder to hold gen pop given that it's the only cell block that can be locked down early in the game, thus giving a huge advantage to whoever comes away with it.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby mibi on Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:58 am

Incandenza wrote:
mibi wrote:
Incandenza wrote:I still feel like guard 501 should be a 1 or 2...


Any reason? I like the idea of gen pop being kind of isolated, a pressure cooker. It is hard to get external forces in there, so if you don't maintain your reputation in the gen pop, then you are a bit fucked. If it were 2 or 1, then people would neglect the gen pop until it was time to rush in from the yard.


Well, given the importance of gen pop, it just seems cheeky that someone trying to break the big smoke bonus would have to go through an extra neutral 5 to get back into gen pop. Basically it only hurts the guy trying to get in, because once he goes through and kills the guard, then whoever was already in gen pop can just roll that advance back up. Besides, even if the guard were a 1, I doubt that people would neglect gen pop.

I just want to make it a wee bit harder to hold gen pop given that it's the only cell block that can be locked down early in the game, thus giving a huge advantage to whoever comes away with it.


ok well i can go for a 3 for guard 501. ofcourse, i have no idea how to make changes to the maps and such. I suggested changes a few moons ago, but you know how it is..
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:01 am

I was waiting for the discussion to come to a consensus - and for some of the games I have on the map to finish!!!

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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby psilotum on Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:36 pm

First, I'd like to say, I'm starting to really like this map. It took a while to become familiar, but it has some interesting twists.

I've been playing 1 on 1 games on this map, and the starting bonuses vary wildly. Sometimes the game is over based on the drop. One idea I had would be to start all the gang leaders as neutral. That way no player would ever start with a large bonus.

I didn't see this specifically discussed, but I didn't search too hard.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby mibi on Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:43 pm

psilotum wrote:First, I'd like to say, I'm starting to really like this map. It took a while to become familiar, but it has some interesting twists.

I've been playing 1 on 1 games on this map, and the starting bonuses vary wildly. Sometimes the game is over based on the drop. One idea I had would be to start all the gang leaders as neutral. That way no player would ever start with a large bonus.

I didn't see this specifically discussed, but I didn't search too hard.


thats a good idea.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby Incandenza on Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:20 am

mibi wrote:
psilotum wrote:First, I'd like to say, I'm starting to really like this map. It took a while to become familiar, but it has some interesting twists.

I've been playing 1 on 1 games on this map, and the starting bonuses vary wildly. Sometimes the game is over based on the drop. One idea I had would be to start all the gang leaders as neutral. That way no player would ever start with a large bonus.

I didn't see this specifically discussed, but I didn't search too hard.


thats a good idea.


You talked me out of neutral bosses at the bottom of pg 55. :D
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby waseemalim on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:30 am

neutral bosses may be a good idea -- but then again, if you have the inmate in the same cell, ie diablo for el burro, it comes down to the same randomness. In many ways its prolly worse, because then no one knows who has which boss in a fog game (which I find to be the ideal setting for this map). If you shared the inmate, someone would atleast know.

Mibi, I dont think 8 is too high a bonus -- you spend a lot of armies on trying to get the gas chamber and warden (and it takes a LONG time) -- even if you are coming from the outside, you prolly have to kill 9-15 player armies. By then most people are getting huge bonuses or have downsized you inside the prison. Also once someone takes out the warden you are literally screwed. I feel strongly that this gamble deserves a better return and I insist on +8 -- especially since you are opening up another door there.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby BENJIKAT IS DEAD on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:18 am

the only times that my opponents have gone for the gas chamber, I have stranded them with -5 very easily.... i agree that the upside could do with being higher.

Neutral bosses I don't like.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby mibi on Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:52 am

waseemalim wrote:neutral bosses may be a good idea -- but then again, if you have the inmate in the same cell, ie diablo for el burro, it comes down to the same randomness. In many ways its prolly worse, because then no one knows who has which boss in a fog game (which I find to be the ideal setting for this map). If you shared the inmate, someone would atleast know.

Mibi, I dont think 8 is too high a bonus -- you spend a lot of armies on trying to get the gas chamber and warden (and it takes a LONG time) -- even if you are coming from the outside, you prolly have to kill 9-15 player armies. By then most people are getting huge bonuses or have downsized you inside the prison. Also once someone takes out the warden you are literally screwed. I feel strongly that this gamble deserves a better return and I insist on +8 -- especially since you are opening up another door there.


righty well with neutral bosses it would still come down to who is their cell mate, but at least people wouldn't start with the boss +3 or something. i think someone was complaining about that. I'd be willing to go +7 on the gas chamber. I just dont want a situation where if someone has the warden and gas chamber, after one turn they can lock it up with huge bonues, then its all over. the difference between +8 and +7 is marginal but may be a factor in that.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby Incandenza on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:13 pm

Here's sort of a weird thought: what if BOTH the bosses and their respective cellmates started neutral? Then you knock down the neutral value of surrounding guards (maybe even all four in the area) to 2 or 1, set the boss neutral value at 5 and the cellmate at 2, and then it's everyone into the pool. That way you have six potential spots close enough to the boss to make a play for him and no one starts with a big gang bonus.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby yeti_c on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:19 pm

Incandenza wrote:Here's sort of a weird thought: what if BOTH the bosses and their respective cellmates started neutral? Then you knock down the neutral value of surrounding guards (maybe even all four in the area) to 2 or 1, set the boss neutral value at 5 and the cellmate at 2, and then it's everyone into the pool. That way you have six potential spots close enough to the boss to make a play for him and no one starts with a big gang bonus.


This sounds like a good plan to me...

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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby BENJIKAT IS DEAD on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:28 pm

yeti_c wrote:
Incandenza wrote:Here's sort of a weird thought: what if BOTH the bosses and their respective cellmates started neutral? Then you knock down the neutral value of surrounding guards (maybe even all four in the area) to 2 or 1, set the boss neutral value at 5 and the cellmate at 2, and then it's everyone into the pool. That way you have six potential spots close enough to the boss to make a play for him and no one starts with a big gang bonus.


This sounds like a good plan to me...

C.


I don't like it much, personally - for many types of settings it will just mean that they are irrelevant (as they often are at the moment in trips and quads).

And what about Big Smoke? - the most important one of all?

I also dislike neutral 1s on principle due to the ease with which the first person to play can increase their territory count.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby Greycloak on Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:35 pm

I'm sure this has been seen before (and don't care to read through 50-some pages to find the posting) but there is a typo in the title:

Unite your Gang to Sur*V*ive (not surive)
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby badlouie on Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:09 am

I absolutely love this map, but after 20+ games on it I have yet to see anyone go into "The Hole".

I haven't encountered a situation where it was worth it for me to secure that area.

So, I have a question- is the Hole ignored in most games, or have I simply been involved in a cluster of games where it simply hasn't come into play?
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby 3mp3r0r on Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:38 am

badlouie wrote:I absolutely love this map, but after 20+ games on it I have yet to see anyone go into "The Hole".

I haven't encountered a situation where it was worth it for me to secure that area.

So, I have a question- is the Hole ignored in most games, or have I simply been involved in a cluster of games where it simply hasn't come into play?


came up a while ago and as fgar as i heard/read they were going to add a door between 602 and 002 (guard infront of hole and guard infront of gas chamber) as that would mean gen pop could have a closer route to the warden by taking the hole
dont know why it hasnt been implemented :|
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby Incandenza on Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:36 pm

I gotta say, the fact that we're still discussing neutrals and bonuses and what not makes it kinda weird that the Beta tag has been removed. Seems like this is a textbook map for extended Beta status, as opposed to, say, charleston, where once it's determined that the XML isn't broken and the bonuses aren't hideously unbalanced, the beta tag should be removed asap.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby waseemalim on Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:06 am

cool +7 it is. Can we reduce the neutral to 3 or 4 for the chamber?

I dont personally like the idea of bumping down the neutrals around the bosses. Ben pointed out somewhere that the beauty of this map is that you have different strategies for different parts of the board -- and I dont think we want a Gen. population type war all over the place.

I dont think the +1 bonus helps much even if you get it in the drop. And +4 is still pretty low probability. I am kind of sleepy or I would have calculated it for you.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby waseemalim on Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:10 am

badlouie wrote:I absolutely love this map, but after 20+ games on it I have yet to see anyone go into "The Hole".

I haven't encountered a situation where it was worth it for me to secure that area.

So, I have a question- is the Hole ignored in most games, or have I simply been involved in a cluster of games where it simply hasn't come into play?



yea the hole is being ignored. But the updated version is opening a new hole into the hole :lol: .
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby waseemalim on Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:13 am

Incandenza wrote:
I just want to make it a wee bit harder to hold gen pop given that it's the only cell block that can be locked down early in the game, thus giving a huge advantage to whoever comes away with it.



Funny you would say that. In standard games, it comes down to game theory. My record in standard games for this map isnt great, but I have generally won without focusing on the Gen. Pop AT ALL.
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Re: Supermax: Prison Riot! [Quenched]

Postby gdeangel on Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:16 am

By far the dominant strategy I've seen is to get control of the gang members outside the front gate (very drop sensitive), and then go for the warden from the back door. The simple way to make this a little more challenging would be to allow the tower guards to bomb not just the yard, but also the "escapees" outside the front gate.
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