Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

The arena for official Foundry competitions: the War of Art!

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Vote for which map you wish to see in full production!

Poll ended at Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:33 am

Entry 1
59
22%
Entry 2
67
25%
Entry 4
143
53%
 
Total votes : 269

Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 1 over.

Postby edbeard on Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:47 pm

isn't the point of all the voting to find out which theme/direction the most people want the map to be? adding a theme afterward goes against that idea.

the argument saaimen made is a poor one. 202 / 364 votes went for what was given. you can't just say that the 10 people that commented with criticism/advice override those 200 votes simply because they didn't speak up.


the first round is for showing the direction. the second is for the finished product. if you can't complete it then don't commit to the contest or go with what the people voted for in the final.


(preferably there'd be a "this is what I've got give me comments/criticism and votes but just to show where the public opinion is at that moment" round then a true voting round after updates to determine finalists and a final round for the champion)
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 1 over.

Postby saaimen on Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:10 am

edbeard wrote:isn't the point of all the voting to find out which theme/direction the most people want the map to be? adding a theme afterward goes against that idea.

the argument saaimen made is a poor one. 202 / 364 votes went for what was given. you can't just say that the 10 people that commented with criticism/advice override those 200 votes simply because they didn't speak up.

...

(preferably there'd be a "this is what I've got give me comments/criticism and votes but just to show where the public opinion is at that moment" round then a true voting round after updates to determine finalists and a final round for the champion)

The voting was obviously graphics-based. For the bigger part, at least. Ohterwise, there'd be a "I've got a theme but I want comments from people who like/dislike my theme before I draw a map with it"-round. I've read lots of "It's beautiful" or "Great looks" comments. And the few that were less positive wanted a theme. Or most of them. I haven't read any "I like the fact that it has no theme" comments, have you?
From your point of view, maybe nothing should be changed. Imagine redoing the colour of one continent, then you'd go "Oh no don't do that, it's not what people voted for"... So far, they've chosen this one as their favourite, but it can be improved. And the improvement that was suggested, was a theme.
So maybe think again about the bold part.
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby gimil on Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:34 am

Round 2 is on!

Happy New Year and may the best map maker win,

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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 1 over.

Postby oaktown on Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:01 pm

edbeard wrote:(preferably there'd be a "this is what I've got give me comments/criticism and votes but just to show where the public opinion is at that moment" round then a true voting round after updates to determine finalists and a final round for the champion)

I think that something along these lines will be implemented if/when we have a future map contest.

Since we've allowed nearly every map to move on to the final round in both competitions, and since nearly a month has passed since we kicked off the first round, there has been plenty of time for comments/criticism... sadly, very little has been offered. And running the contest during the holiday season may have cramped people's style, but it seems like there's never a good time - people leave during summer, they're busy when the semester begins, they're busy during finals, and holidays fall between school commitments. Oh well.

I voted for Rj's map (#4) in the first round, but like Edbeard said this second round is for a finished product, and I was hoping for a bit more flavor from that map in this second round. Now I may vote Pirates, and hope that Rj applies the look of his beautiful map to a project that grabs me.
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby jako on Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:52 pm

clearly, the pirates map could go straight to quench. its beautiful and well done and for those that are screaming for a theme, its pretty obvious what the theme is.

go Pirates!!!!! =D> :D
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 1 over.

Postby edbeard on Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:51 pm

saaimen wrote:
edbeard wrote:isn't the point of all the voting to find out which theme/direction the most people want the map to be? adding a theme afterward goes against that idea.

the argument saaimen made is a poor one. 202 / 364 votes went for what was given. you can't just say that the 10 people that commented with criticism/advice override those 200 votes simply because they didn't speak up.

...

(preferably there'd be a "this is what I've got give me comments/criticism and votes but just to show where the public opinion is at that moment" round then a true voting round after updates to determine finalists and a final round for the champion)

The voting was obviously graphics-based. For the bigger part, at least. Ohterwise, there'd be a "I've got a theme but I want comments from people who like/dislike my theme before I draw a map with it"-round. I've read lots of "It's beautiful" or "Great looks" comments. And the few that were less positive wanted a theme. Or most of them. I haven't read any "I like the fact that it has no theme" comments, have you?
From your point of view, maybe nothing should be changed. Imagine redoing the colour of one continent, then you'd go "Oh no don't do that, it's not what people voted for"... So far, they've chosen this one as their favourite, but it can be improved. And the improvement that was suggested, was a theme.
So maybe think again about the bold part.


you haven't given me anything new to think about

1. you've made the same argument. you're discounting the votes people made simply because they didn't speak up about possibly negatives. they still voted for that map.

2. you're jumping to poor conclusions. I've said it's a bad idea to add a theme afterward since people didn't vote for it. I've also said that changes to details and general improvements of the map overall are good things. So, you've made a huge error in what my point of view is. You haven't even come close to following my logic.

3. a theme is not an "improvement". it's the focus of the map. a big portion of people are voting for map #2 because of the Pirates theme. If it was changed to Ninjas afterward or the Pirate theme just went away, wouldn't those people have a serious gripe? same thing applies to adding a theme. it's not what people voted for. details are where the improvements go. a theme is not a detail.
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby RjBeals on Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:58 pm

Close Race.

What's it gonna be... theme or no-theme !!

:o
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 1 over.

Postby saaimen on Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:26 pm

edbeard wrote:details are where the improvements go. a theme is not a detail.

Maybe that's what it's all about. I think the biggest improvement this map could undergo would be the adding of a theme :lol:
But let's extinguish this fire we've put up. I don't think we'll ever agree on this one #-o
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby djak. on Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:11 am

I don't have the graphic skills to make a map nearly as nice as any of these, so take the cons as being from someone who admires your work but who's a stickler for play usability.

1) 70%
Pros: Great usability, especially for continuous play. Beautiful and with great names.
Cons: Stone wilderness mountains should more clearly block off areas that can't attack. Icea/Agoraa trees shouldn't have a path thru the trees connecting them.

2) 35%
Pros: Wonderful borders on land.
Cons: Too many lines with the ships. WHY SCREAM USING ALL CAPS for country names? No bonus map.

4) 0% because of error. When error is fixed, 50%. When other cons are fixed, 80%.
Pros: The mountains are great.
Cons: Saluda (M6) and Fairfield (M4) shouldn't touch each other! No bonus map. WHY SCREAM USING ALL CAPS for country names?
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby the.killing.44 on Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:23 am

djak. wrote:WHY SCREAM USING ALL CAPS?

BECAUSE SOMETIMES IT'S BETTER ON A MAP. 27 out of the 98 Live/Beta maps (excluding #ed ones/ones like Conquer 4) are in CAPS, and it just goes with the map. That really shouldn't be a con in my book.

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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby whitestazn88 on Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:14 am

i'm not super happy giving this vote to you rj, you didn't do anything different. but i still don't like the pirate map (i don't know why... its just weird as a middle earth replacement. sorry WM), and it seems as if wca is just not even worried about this comp anymore.
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby e_i_pi on Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:27 am

whitestazn88 wrote:i'm not super happy giving this vote to you rj, you didn't do anything different. but i still don't like the pirate map (i don't know why... its just weird as a middle earth replacement. sorry WM), and it seems as if wca is just not even worried about this comp anymore.

In defence of the Pirates map (and no I'm not saying who I voted for) the main problem I see with it is that it contrasts a great deal (good thing) but is overall very dark (not so good thing). I like the dark feel, but there's a lot of dark, and the light/bright parts are very stark in comparison. It looks spooky in way, and I think it just misses the 'nail on the head' by a small amount. By the same token, I don't think it would take much to settle the balance between light/dark, and make the entire aesthetic merge. Also, the army circles are all the same, but some have text positioned on top of them - I think it could benefit from having the circles all separated from the text so they don't overlap.

Hell, I may as well continue...

Map 1 looks great, I still think it needs work, but it's getting to the stage where changes to it are going to make great difference as the 'basic' layout is done - it is just a matter of getting the balance right between the texture and where the land meets the water. I feel the shorelines are too clean a cut from land to water - there could be a little more transition between them to 'smooth it out', which would make the detail flow better. Aside from this, it is beautiful. Every territory is textured wonderfully, and small details like the river water flow and the faint brighter patches in Stone Wilderness are easily overlooked as being fantastic, as they fit so very well and naturally.

Map 3 - it's great, it is. I'm disappointed that there's very little been done to the map since round 1 to be honest. In regards to the theme, true it doesn't have one, but it's a blank canvas in that respect, and so has potential to settle into the right spot a lot easier than the other two, as any thematic changes will not be drastic. For me, it needs something more on the land. The mountains and lakes are good, but some non-border graphics would bring it out a lot more. There are graphics on the sea (waves, ships) that simply aren't reflected on the land. It makes the land look a little stark in comparison, and so unfinished. But overall it balances perfectly. Maybe army circles and 88s would bring the business that it requires, without them it is hard to tell.

I don't think any of these maps would fail in the Foundry/Final Forge (wherever it is they go after this), but I do think they all need a little more work. As an entrant in the other comp, I understand that the time we had to do these was quite limited, and the jobs done here are all brilliant. Each map shines in it's own way, each map can improve, each map is unique. I think the votes will reflect peoples personal preference more than which map is 'the best' - they are all great and all have personality. Kudos to all entrants
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby RjBeals on Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:55 pm

whitestazn88 wrote:i'm not super happy giving this vote to you rj, you didn't do anything different. but i still don't like the pirate map (i don't know why... its just weird as a middle earth replacement. sorry WM), and it seems as if wca is just not even worried about this comp anymore.


Sorry.

I didn't have a chance. I was away for the holidays, then when I got back, my wife was very sick and eventually had to go to the emergency room. That left me to take care of job, house and 3 little girls, and sick wife.

But if map 3 wins, there is a surprise in store for you. :-$

edit: There will not be army circles in this map, and those errors where the borders are wrong are easily fixed with a bridge or a mountain range. :oops:
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby drake_pk7 on Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:04 pm

can map 2 become a map even if it doesn't win this competition?

Its a cool concept, different than the "centerscape" model, but hey if you can get something that different from that epic trilogy then why not turn it into a map on conquer club?
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby whitestazn88 on Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:09 pm

RjBeals wrote:
whitestazn88 wrote:i'm not super happy giving this vote to you rj, you didn't do anything different. but i still don't like the pirate map (i don't know why... its just weird as a middle earth replacement. sorry WM), and it seems as if wca is just not even worried about this comp anymore.


Sorry.

I didn't have a chance. I was away for the holidays, then when I got back, my wife was very sick and eventually had to go to the emergency room. That left me to take care of job, house and 3 little girls, and sick wife.

But if map 3 wins, there is a surprise in store for you. :-$

edit: There will not be army circles in this map, and those errors where the borders are wrong are easily fixed with a bridge or a mountain range. :oops:


understandable. i think most of the foundry regulars know you can make it something great. the fact that 2 of the 3 maps that went on did nothing was disappointing in terms of the competition aspect of this maps revamp though.
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby ZeakCytho on Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:25 pm

I'm just a bit disappointed that there was no "Tree" Beard on the Pirate map. But my comments from round 1 still basically hold for maps 1 and 3; map 2 is looking much better, IMO.
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby theButterfly on Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:27 am

I didn't vote at all in round 1, but in round 2 I voted for #4 based on the map-maker's stated intent to work on a theme. If there will not be a theme, then hopefully this will become clear before voting ends so I can change my vote to #1.

Also, I finally figured out what it is I don't like about #2. The pirate theme is cool, but the problem is that the theme doesn't fit the gameplay. The Centerscape map is almost purely classic gameplay, with no gimmicks except a single one-way attack. It really seems pointless to have a theme that includes both land and sea combat and fleets of ships holding influence in different parts of the sea if there's nothing to it except normal attacks and continent bonuses. It seems like different ships should have different special attacks, similar to the Waterloo map. There could also be special bonuses for things like hidden treasures and important ports.

Besides that, this particular map really needs a fantasy theme, and the pirate thing doesn't really fit.

Anyway, I guess major gameplay changes would probably go against map-maker #2's original intent, but I just don't see a reason to play on a pirate map that doesn't have matching gameplay.
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby oaktown on Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:07 pm

theButterfly wrote:I finally figured out what it is I don't like about #2. The pirate theme is cool, but the problem is that the theme doesn't fit the gameplay. The Centerscape map is almost purely classic gameplay, with no gimmicks except a single one-way attack. It really seems pointless to have a theme that includes both land and sea combat and fleets of ships holding influence in different parts of the sea if there's nothing to it except normal attacks and continent bonuses. It seems like different ships should have different special attacks, similar to the Waterloo map. There could also be special bonuses for things like hidden treasures and important ports.

I think this is a fantastic observation... hopefully when Rj's map wins, Widow and co. will work with the gameplay a bit to give this Pirate idea some fun twists and turns.

Stick around the Foundry, Butterfly, and we may put you to work commenting on maps.
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby Kotaro on Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:02 pm

Entry 2 just looks cooler, IMO
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby WidowMakers on Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:53 pm

oaktown wrote:.... Widow and co. will work with the gameplay a bit to give this Pirate idea some fun twists and turns.
You can bet on it. Edbeard and I are mulling over GP changes right now. Pirates will live on so you all can kill each other.

WM
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby edbeard on Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:56 pm

sucks to have more work (no gameplay stamp) but I think the right map is going to win. I didn't vote for it but you couldn't really turn that into another map as easily as gilg or pirates.
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby hecter on Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:51 pm

I really think 4 is the best option... I'm not too big on 1, and the pirates, while a fantastic map, would be much better suited to something other than a middle earth replacement.
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby whitestazn88 on Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:16 am

WidowMakers wrote:
oaktown wrote:.... Widow and co. will work with the gameplay a bit to give this Pirate idea some fun twists and turns.
You can bet on it. Edbeard and I are mulling over GP changes right now. Pirates will live on so you all can kill each other.

WM


wait, you worked with ed on this map? i totally guessed that way back on page 1....

did everyone else know that already? was i just out of the loop?
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby RjBeals on Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:32 am

whitestazn88 wrote:
WidowMakers wrote:
oaktown wrote:.... Widow and co. will work with the gameplay a bit to give this Pirate idea some fun twists and turns.
You can bet on it. Edbeard and I are mulling over GP changes right now. Pirates will live on so you all can kill each other.

WM


wait, you worked with ed on this map? i totally guessed that way back on page 1....

did everyone else know that already? was i just out of the loop?


I don't think he's ever announced that yet. Ed and WM created map#2. Whitestanaz you're on point.
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Re: Official: Centerscape Competition - Round 2!

Postby FM Harper on Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:43 am

In terms of a replacement for Centerscape... I think entry 4 is looking the best.

I would however love to see entry 2 done as a completely new map. It's looking awesome. :D
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