Limit point exchange for cooks to reduce harvesting in quads

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Limit point exchange for cooks to reduce harvesting in quads

Postby FarangDemon on Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:57 pm

Concise description:
  • Farming of new recruits has been prevented by restricting difficult maps and settings to them until they gain more experience.
  • It is still possible to farm unskilled players on difficult maps and settings so the farming and subsequent points inflation of the higher ranked continues as well.
  • I advocate taking a closer look at the win rate of low ranked teams against extremely high ranked on various maps/settings, in order to more fully understand the scope of harvesting techniques.
  • Once additional harvesting techniques have been identified, we can extend the appropriate point loss restrictions to certain lower ranks in order to further reduce the farming and points inflation problem that plagues ConquerClub.
  • I've collected a very small amount of data that should indicate that harvesting of the low ranked is indeed a risk-free endeavor.
  • I suggest allowing anybody to play on restricted maps as long as no points will be exchanged.

Specifics:
    I wanted to collect stats on low ranked teams playing high ranked ones on difficult map settings. I found it expedient to search on lt.pie's quads Waterloo games. This is not an attack on lt.pie, I just found it easier to restrict my data collection in this manner.

    I counted that out of 60 games where he played against teams containing at least one cook and no opponent below lieutenant, he won all 60. This indicates that higher ranked players, if they are able to target teams like this, will be able to gain risk-free points.
    (This is not an allegation that he targeted/targets teams like this.)

    If the high ranked team gains 5 points in each game and stands to lose 80, they would need to win 16 for every loss in order to break even. This data shows that the low ranked teams cannot even win one in 60. This shows the viability of the harvesting technique of targeting teams with cooks and no one Lieutenant or above in quads games on Waterloo.

    I don't have the time to count every game by hand including people of x, y and z rank, but I think you would find that many maps currently restricted to new recruits would produce similar results.

    I hope this sample data spurs further analysis using automated tools across larger data sets (across all games and difficult maps) to determine the viability of various harvesting techniques.


Games:

This will improve the following aspects of the site:
  • Restrict farming even further
  • Reduce point inflation
  • Make CC more competitive by encouraging high ranks to play each other instead of farm
Last edited by FarangDemon on Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:32 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby Kotaro on Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:58 pm

Terrible idea, imo. Cooks are plenty good players, I've learned.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby Night Strike on Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:27 am

When I read the various restrictions on new recruits, those appeared to be put in place at least partially because those players were not returning to the site. If a player is a cook, they are obviously still playing on the site, so why should they be limited as to what they can play?

On a side note, I recommend you send a mass PM (via the BCC button) to all those cooks in the games you examined and send them to wacicha and his Society of Cooks. That should improve their scores.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby FarangDemon on Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:38 am

Night Strike wrote:When I read the various restrictions on new recruits, those appeared to be put in place at least partially because those players were not returning to the site. If a player is a cook, they are obviously still playing on the site, so why should they be limited as to what they can play?


Because the scoreboard is meant to measure skill in the game, not "harvesting" techniques.

lackattack wrote:As farmers move up the scoreboard it also harms the competitive nature of Conquer Club - the scoreboard is meant to measure skill in the game, not "harvesting" techniques.


Night Strike wrote:On a side note, I recommend you send a mass PM (via the BCC button) to all those cooks in the games you examined and send them to wacicha and his Society of Cooks. That should improve their scores.


Seems more practical to tackle the problem at its roots by reforming the scoring system (no traction there) or at least restricting games to prevent harvesting (lack has begun this process) than attempt to teach every cook how to play CC. Some will never learn no matter what. I don't think people should get to the top ranks by gaining points from these players when it is shown that they have no chance on certain map settings.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby Kotaro on Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:40 am

You can harvest any rank with the right map.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby Artimis on Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:59 am

I object to this suggestion, if ever I end up ranked as a Cook again I'll be unable to play a lot of my favourite maps. If you want to prevent the farming of low ranks that much then PM them with tips on how to avoid getting farmed. Don't try to get restrictions imposed because that will put them off playing here, full stop. Not everyone cares about their score.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby lancehoch on Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:53 pm

Farang, who do you think should play against the lower ranked players? It seems that you feel that anyone playing against a cook 1v1 is harvesting.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby Artimis on Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:07 pm

I have a modification for this suggestion, set the condition that a player must have completed 100 games. So to play on the harder maps they must either get promoted to Private or better or have played 100 games. Either they have the skill to handle these maps or they gain the experience to avoid getting chronically crushed on them.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby HardAttack on Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:58 pm

FarangDemon wrote:
Specifics:
[list]
I wanted to collect stats on low ranked teams playing high ranked ones on difficult map settings. I found it expedient to search on lt.pie's quads Waterloo games. This is not an attack on lt.pie, I just found it easier to restrict my data collection in this manner.

I counted that out of 60 games where he played against teams containing at least one cook and no opponent below lieutenant, he won all 60. This indicates that higher ranked players, if they are able to target teams like this, will be able to gain risk-free points.
(This is not an allegation that he targeted/targets teams like this.)

If the high ranked team gains 5 points in each game and stands to lose 80, they would need to win 16 for every loss in order to break even. This data shows that the low ranked teams cannot even win one in 60. This shows the viability of the harvesting technique of targeting teams with cooks and no one Lieutenant or above in quads games on Waterloo.


I very strongly reject the idea in which lt.pie has been issued. I know you are not accusing him with anything but i still want to insist on to play my claim on this example. If i am not wrong, those games are created to public and game maker is lt.pie. Then what is it to do with pie if his games gets filled with that rank this rank ? This first needs an answer...
Secondly, pie is a strong player, and that is why he is winning many of himself perfected waterloo games. How many points he gets from socalled low ranks ? 6 for per game ? ok then, make a simple calculation... he won 60 games, and approximately he got 6*60 = 360 pointss (at this point please do not aggravate it, 6 or 8 whatever, just an example). I really wonder what you wud have said if pie played those games with all sergeants or more ? Then he wud have got 10 from per game he played and maybe this time he wudnt win 60 but 55 of 60.. then minimum sergenat opponent games wud leave 10 to pie... 55*10 =550 - 200 = 350 .... so are we talking all about 360 - 350 = 10 points in 60 games ? B.S.....
I wonder to know what do you want pie to do ? let him sit back, and only play with majors or more ? How many majors are there to go and to play against pie in pie's very best map ? Shall he wait ages just one game of him to fill ?
I am repeating, you have already stated that example given on pie is nothing offense against pie, and i know it exactly..But i here made my explanation on pie as well... So nothing wrong !!!!
Farming mainly due to high probability of new recruit's deadbeating !!! But those cooks cadets etc take their turn in a regular way as we do most of times....

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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby Incandenza on Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:14 pm

Fact: Some people (like lt. pie) are very very good at CC

Fact: Some people (like your average cook) are very very bad at CC

FD, instead of coming up with increasingly baroque restrictions and scoring changes, none of which have found much in the way of popular support, why don't you just shrug your shoulders, accept that the scoring system has its flaws (as ANY scoring system would given the very subjective nature of CC), and try to have a little fun and not get so worked up that sometimes people enjoy a nice turkey-shoot?

Better yet, you and porky and a few other folks could start your own clan, make it a clan rule to never play against anyone below the rank of sergeant, hone your skills, and go out and try and beat pie in a quads waterloo game. That way everyone's happy.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby Grizbr on Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:20 pm

simple do not allow 3 or less players in a game. The real skill of the game in playing multiple players and winning.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby DarthBlood on Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:54 pm

that's never going to happen, as long as your suggestion includes allowing people to play a map without any exchange of points.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby Jeff Hardy on Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:08 am

high ranks gain hardly anything from cooks anyway, stop complaining
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby FarangDemon on Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:14 am

incandenza wrote:sometimes people enjoy a nice turkey-shoot?


You are welcome to your turkey shoot. But you shouldn't be able to have your turkey shoot and eat it, too. Someone doesn't become the champion of ANY game of skill because they choose to play only unskilled players.

You are a high ranked, non-farming player. I am curious to know why you consistently discourage players from reforming the scoring system that rewards harvesting techniques?

incandenza wrote:He's a farmer. So seriously STFU, play your own game, and let other people play theirs. Christ.


I also appreciate the dramatic increase in civility than your response to one of my previous postings (above). I have a policy against feeding obnoxious, virulent trolls so I declined to respond that time.

incandenza wrote:FD, instead of coming up with increasingly baroque restrictions and scoring changes, none of which have found much in the way of popular support,


73% in favor seems pretty popular to me. This is just one of my ideas.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=70978

incandenza wrote:why don't you just shrug your shoulders, accept the scoring system has its flaws (as ANY scoring system would given the very subjective nature of CC)


No. Simply because you cannot figure out how to solve a problem or are unwilling to try because you don't want the problem to be solved does NOT mean that the problem cannot, in fact, quite easily be solved. Scoring systems aren't subjective. Read the suggestions forum. You would find that they are based on ways to objectively prevent players in the top x% from gaining points by harvesting players in the bottom y%. That is all it takes.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby HardAttack on Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:37 am

a dozen of ppl stating you are not rightful in your claim and if you are aggravating the point and what is then, you are still saying, "hey world, you all are wrong but i am true" . Wow impressive, i m god damn impressed. What a self confidence...Normalize urself based on some norms we all have in common mate. You are appearing to be funny slightly. Put off ur one way looking eye glasses, and then see the other aspects as well.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby Mr Changsha on Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:52 pm

Not keen... ;)

1. Some cooks play well. There are many reasons why a player might be a cook other than them being completely rubbish.
2. It would be unfair to limit a paying member's game choice.
3. If a cook IS HAPPY TO LOSE vast numbers of games against a top player then bully for him.
4. From my perspective, if you are going to restrict cooks, then I would think cadets, privates and corporals are next in line. About half the members at that point.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby FarangDemon on Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:41 am

Although point 1 is hilarious, I wish to address a different point.

Mr Changsha wrote:3. If a cook IS HAPPY TO LOSE vast numbers of games against a top player then bully for him.


Maybe you are on the other side of the looking glass mirror, but this means you actually WANT a system where the person that gets to the top has to focus on playing cooks.

You are in the vast minority of the site. See the poll.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=70978&start=0

And if you think coming up with a farming proof system is an intractable problem you're not even kidding yourself. People will always be whining about whatever they want to whine about, but they will be whining about a system that does not encourage farming because it does not reward harvesting techniques. You play your peers to get ahead, period.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby Artimis on Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:51 am

Farang, it is the players choice how well or how badly they play. Don't go restricting a players choice of map just because of how many points they lose, that is why I put forward this modification for your suggestion.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby FarangDemon on Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:40 am

lancehoch wrote:Farang, who do you think should play against the lower ranked players? It seems that you feel that anyone playing against a cook 1v1 is harvesting.


You are avoiding the topic. Please discuss the merits of my suggestion rather than make faulty assumptions about how you think I feel about unrelated things.

This sug bug is about high ranked players targeting cooks in quads games on difficult maps like Waterloo. The data shows it is a proven harvesting technique. Win 60, lose 0. Post on topic if you believe that this is not a harvesting technique, in other words, a risk-free way to gain points from inexperienced players and inflate the scores of the farmers.

Otherwise it is obvious that your off-topic postings are merely an effort to distract readers away from an argument that you oppose and yet cannot win by reasoned discussion.

If data showed top ranked players playing against cooks 1 on 1 will tend to gain points over time, I would allege that it is indeed harvesting. I'm not sure that is possible and have not researched it. Lack researched the same thing with New Recruits instead of cooks and decided it was a harvesting technique and made it illegal.

Lack kept his mind open and used numbers to make a decision. That is what I also advocate here and for research into any type of harvesting technique. Your opinions seem to be based on feelings instead of measurements - that is why you make no attempt to analyze or contest the mathematical facts behind this harvesting technique yet you continue to rail against the suggestion, blindly trolling off-topic.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby FarangDemon on Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:49 am

Artimis wrote:Farang, it is the players choice how well or how badly they play. Don't go restricting a players choice of map just because of how many points they lose, that is why I put forward this modification for your suggestion.


Definitely if subsets of the cook population could be identified as non-harvestable by a particular harvesting technique, the corresponding map restrictions should not be in place for those cooks.

=D>

I like the spirit of your suggestion - it acknowledges the efficacy of this harvesting technique and attempts to stop it. If data shows that cooks who have played 100 games were not susceptible anymore to farming by high ranks in these sorts of games, then I would agree with your suggestion. However, you have not presented any evidence that this is the case.

Show me the numbers and I will agree with any suggestion like this. Again, it is a good suggestion and I'm not expecting you to do the research yourself to prove it to me, as this would take a long time. The data I used was easy to find because I did not discriminate among different kinds of cooks or look into their game histories.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby JOHNNYROCKET24 on Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:52 am

Night Strike wrote:When I read the various restrictions on new recruits, those appeared to be put in place at least partially because those players were not returning to the site. If a player is a cook, they are obviously still playing on the site, so why should they be limited as to what they can play?

On a side note, I recommend you send a mass PM (via the BCC button) to all those cooks in the games you examined and send them to wacicha and his Society of Cooks. That should improve their scores.


prevent players from over 3K to play any player under 1K, but allow players under 1K to play anyone. This will prevent players like sjnap who seeks out cooks only and joins freestyle team games with his teamates and prey against unknowledged players that dont understand the logic of 3/4 players making their moves all together at the same time and in even some cases, the same player making all the moves for the entire team.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby ronc8649 on Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:36 pm

i dont need to read the comments in this thread to know what it is all about.

conquer club is becoming a wierd map club. it is pitiful.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby sailorseal on Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:06 pm

My friend a cook is sitting right next to me crying!
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby Incandenza on Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:54 pm

Let me start by saying that I don't like restrictions. I understand putting restrictions on the community's gaming interaction with ?'s as a business decision, but anything beyond that starts to smack of elitism of varying stripe.

Besides, restrictions are a slippery slope, proven out by the fact that some people want to extend the protection given new recruits to cooks. What next, cadets? Privates? Higher? Then what? Maybe we should just get rid of freestyle, that's certainly the key to point gain for many many top players. And while we're at it, Waterloo simply has to go, 'cause unless you've played a hundred games on it you'll never win. Maybe team games should be next. After all, it's pretty unfair for a well-coordinated, experienced team (especially if they're communicating via MSN or, god forbid, in person or on the phone) to play against people that have never been on the same team before. And let's just go ahead and ban clickable maps. And BOB. Hell, let's stop giving out points so no one has to feel bad. You see where I'm going with this? No system will ever be completely fair. Whenever there is potential for exploiting unfairness, people will exploit it. It's simply a matter of degree.

Another point: to say that any given concept in sugs and bugs has wide community support, or to classify anyone's position on this matter as being in the vast minority, is a complete fallacy. A hundred people could be in here clamoring for change, and it would be but a mote in the storm of the overall CC concept.

The big point I'd like to make is this: rather than trying to revise the scoreboard to something different but equally flawed (and considerably more restrictive, which again, is not a good thing), why not agitate for a sortable scoreboard? Or simpler yet, when looking at the scoreboard, just screen out the people above you that play a different game? Given the variety of maps and settings on CC, any two given people can be playing what's essentially a completely different game. No scoreboard will ever be able to reflect that variance accurately, so it would be nice to be able to have an overall scoreboard, say, then one for freestyle, one for sequential, one for dubs, etc, based on a percentage of games played.
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Re: Extend map restrictions to cooks to reduce harvesting

Postby Blinkadyblink on Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:19 pm

FarangDemon, it seems that you have decided that farming must be stopped at any cost and that however we choose to stop it is automatically justified. I disagree. Farming is a problem, almost everyone agrees to that, but it is not nearly bad enough to justify limiting cooks' freedom to play on whatever map they want. If cooks don't want to play, and likely be farmed, on certain maps, they don't have to. Unlike new recruits, they have the experience to know about farming and avoid farmers if they want to. The only time this suggestion would have any effect, then, is when a cook does want to play on a difficult map, knowing that he may be farmed. Thus this suggestion will only stop the farming of those cooks who are willing to risk being farmed. With this in mind, my question is what's in it for the cooks? It seems that the only beneficiaries of this would be high ranking non-farmers who could move up a few spots on the scoreboard by taking away the cooks' right to play where they want.

p.s. Why not limit the map choices of the high ranks, say colonel and above, who actually commit the farming, rather than the low-ranking victims?
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