Jury Discussion- POLL

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Are Jurys a good idea?

Poll ended at Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:52 pm

YES!
6
43%
no
8
57%
No but I am just un-happy because they won't let me be on one
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 14

Re: I feel that...

Postby wcaclimbing on Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:49 pm

More maps in development = less comments per map.
Makes sense to me. The foundry isn't dead.

sailorseal wrote: There needs to be some sort of set process for the formation of maps, not just they advance as the CAs deem it time. I think there needs to be standards set.

There is a process. It just isn't being followed for some of the maps in development.
how to make a map wrote:Map Idea
All maps start life in the foundry as an idea in the "Map Ideas" sub forum. Here maps must gain their ideas stamp before being moved into full production in the main foundry.

Drafts Stamp:
1)The map, first and foremost, must have some sort of clear plan of how production will go
2) Have a playable image. If we quenched it people should be able to play on it. This should included the following:
    Territory names
    Working legends
    Speculative Bonuses
    Tentative Border Divisions
3) The working image needs to be beyond rough draft state. This means that you must provide the following:
    A working image done in some kind of graphic software. Pencil drawn images and images done on paint will not be accpected.
    Two quality updates must be provided.
4) Have honest and interested discussion. Not just you and three friends.
Last edited by wcaclimbing on Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby the.killing.44 on Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:50 pm

If we go by that description of the Draft stamp, there would be a ton more maps in the Foundry Proper or at least in Adv. Draft stage. Good thing?

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Re: I feel that...

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:23 pm

i say that it will get maps moving faster, but it might add to the work of mods and others
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Re: I feel that...

Postby oaktown on Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:28 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:You're really missing my point … I'm saying that the Foundry is losing the comments that it had, like I pointed out from May '08.

Wait, then you turned around and gave an example from just one month ago (the Oakland thread) in which there were a ton of posts in the first day. So the activity isn't dropping, it's just that some maps don't get the same level of activity as the example you gave from last May, while others have.

The requirements to graduate from the Drafting Room is a problem. At first glance they are quite objective, but if you look at the wording they actually allow for a good deal of subjectivity: two quality updates must be provided (what's a quality update?), interested discussion (how much interest, and from how many people?), etc. If you ask me, the standards for getting out of Drafts need to be more explicitly subjective, not less. A map can have all of the things needed to be playable but still look like crap.

Anyhow, I'm kicking around an idea that will make the Drafts process more democratic and transparent... more to come.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby the.killing.44 on Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:31 pm

oaktown wrote:Wait, then you turned around and gave an example from just one month ago (the Oakland thread) in which there were a ton of posts in the first day. So the activity isn't dropping, it's just that some maps don't get the same level of activity as the example you gave from last May, while others have.

Yes, but that was to my point about CAs' threads getting more comments … which led to the point that v1s get comments but slow down … which led to the (concurred) point that it is partly up to the maker for comments.

Anyway, I agree with your points on the Drafting Room ;)

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Re: I feel that...

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:32 pm

oaktown wrote:
the.killing.44 wrote:You're really missing my point … I'm saying that the Foundry is losing the comments that it had, like I pointed out from May '08.

Wait, then you turned around and gave an example from just one month ago (the Oakland thread) in which there were a ton of posts in the first day. So the activity isn't dropping, it's just that some maps don't get the same level of activity as the example you gave from last May, while others have.

The requirements to graduate from the Drafting Room is a problem. At first glance they are quite objective, but if you look at the wording they actually allow for a good deal of subjectivity: two quality updates must be provided (what's a quality update?), interested discussion (how much interest, and from how many people?), etc. If you ask me, the standards for getting out of Drafts need to be more explicitly subjective, not less. A map can have all of the things needed to be playable but still look like crap.

Anyhow, I'm kicking around an idea that will make the Drafts process more democratic and transparent... more to come.

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Re: I feel that...

Postby yeti_c on Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:41 pm

Short and Sharp as that's all I have time for.

At the moment it seems like the CA's are getting it from both sides.

New Map Makers | CA's | Veteran Mapmakers

The CA's are doing a great job from both sides - people need to pull their heads out of their arses and let them get on with it - because guess what - creating topics and angst in the foundry actually means they have LESS time to do their (voluntary) jobs in the foundry.

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Re: I feel that...

Postby oaktown on Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:45 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:Yes, but that was to my point about CAs' threads getting more comments … which led to the point that v1s get comments but slow down … which led to the (concurred) point that it is partly up to the maker for comments.

We can argue this one in circles for days and get nowhere. Does anybiody have any concrete suggestions? Because we're all in this together.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby oaktown on Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:27 pm

funny how this thread is active right up until I ask for suggestions. Nothing?
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Re: I feel that...

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:31 pm

It's not a suggestion, but I just want to link peope to this thread. I was reading it, and there are some amazing comments that apply today. It's about DiM, yes, but most comments are on the Foundry in general. Inc and DiM in particular has some great comments in there.
DiM wrote:i haven't turned my back on the foundry as i will continue to give feedback whenever i have time. i have just decided to stop making maps. as for the disgust it certainly isn't so. it's more of a feeling of sadness. i'm sad the foundry has turned into what it is now, perhaps it's my fault that i can't adapt to it's new form, i don't know.
point is i started making maps for fun, it was a method of relaxation. now i no longer feel this. map making seems more of a burden and honestly i can't be productive in such an environment.
i really don' know who's to blame or even if somebody should be blamed.
i always saw the foundry as one big family with it's inherent ups and downs with moments of happiness as well as fights. but in the end all the problems had a solution and as the foundry as a whole worked together towards a common goal.
now i have the feeling that this family no longer exists. some people only stick to their own maps other roam around spamming every thread and not helping anybody, feedback is scarce and hard to find through all the trash posts.
i miss the mile long posts where one guy analyzed the whole gameplay of a map, i miss the times when people came with a graphic solution to the problem they saw. now people just say "it sucks" or "i love it" and the constructive feedback is limited to a few words like "move the X border there" or "give that continent a +3 instead of a +4"
perhaps people don't have time or perhaps people don't want to spend 30 minutes writing a huge post that will probably be ignored between dozens of spam posts or simply dismissed by map maker.
the foundry seems like it has lost the passion it once had. people no longer put their heart into what they write, it's like everything has turned into a boring routine. 10 "i like it" posts and the map has support. 2-3 measly updates based on 3 comments and the map gets a stamp, etc.
think of the foundry as a small shop that makes little wood decorations. they make just a few each day but they are works of art because the sweat the heart and the soul of the artist are concentrated into those few decorations. the artist carvs each piece of wood with great attention and the family sits besides him and guides him towards the final product. then a rich guy buys the little shop, makes everything automated and the factory churns out hundreds of wood carvings each day. they are nice but they aren't spectacular. it's quantity over quality.
now i'm not saying the maps produced now are bad, luckily the foundry has not turned into a factory...yet. luckily we still have impressive artists around but the family no longer stands by them as a guidance. they are alone and the rich guy is just around the corner.


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Re: I feel that...

Postby gimil on Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:59 pm

I have a high believe in what DiM had to say that day. Unfortuantly this is a situtaion with no real solution or ability to control. Unless we have people who want to be part of a family we will never have the foundry that we used to.

Right now all I see the CA's and the community. The CA's have been doing things the way they have always done things but the community seem to get frustrated with this and decide to point the finger and blame CA's of not doing things the way they should be done. It is a sad state of affairs to be honest since the CA's arn't here to be power hungrey or intentional dick heads. They are here to help make the process run and to help map makers, not hinder them.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby sailorseal on Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:20 pm

I agree with what that guy said and that is exactly why I am having trouble motivating myself to continue. I think maybe the CAs could be a little more lenient. I mean what does it hurt to have another map? Also there is a far to negative environment and this is something I can't blame on the CAs. People are too defensive about there maps and therefore go around making mean and unnecessary comments on other maps, to change this i would just make the whole process a little easier...
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Re: I feel that...

Postby gimil on Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:59 am

sailorseal wrote:I agree with what that guy said and that is exactly why I am having trouble motivating myself to continue. I think maybe the CAs could be a little more lenient. I mean what does it hurt to have another map? Also there is a far to negative environment and this is something I can't blame on the CAs. People are too defensive about there maps and therefore go around making mean and unnecessary comments on other maps, to change this i would just make the whole process a little easier...


Making the process 'easier' and 'lenient' is where people start getting lazy and we start producing sub standard maps. with something like 120+ maps on CC 'having just another map' isn't a good thing. I certainly don't want to be remebered as the CA that let standards and quality fall after years of high quality production.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby wcaclimbing on Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:20 am

Each new map only sets the standard higher for all the newer maps.
That standard won't be decreasing any time soon. I don't think many people around here would be satisfied with seeing a bunch of less-than-perfect maps make it though the foundry if the rules are made 'more lenient'.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby oaktown on Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:16 pm

sailorseal wrote:I think maybe the CAs could be a little more lenient...

I don't think we should be more "lenient" (leniency suggests letter folks skate by without following the rules) but I agree that our rules and expectations have been ramped up too much lately. We're discussing many possible solutions, some of which we hope to roll out soon.

sailorseal wrote:People are too defensive about there maps and therefore go around making mean and unnecessary comments on other maps, to change this i would just make the whole process a little easier...

There are two issues here: the first is that mapmakers are too defensive and don't always accept criticism as they should, and the second is that many folks don't know how to provide constructive criticism. If I am critical of a map, I try to include some specific steps that the mapmaker can take to address the issue rather than saying "this map sucks, walk away from it now." And when I get that kind of feedback I ignore it, because it is entirely thoughtless.

I am of agreement that we should be producing more, not fewer, maps in the foundry. But it has been noted that we do have pretty high standards here these days, and I think that our high standards are what keeps CC one notch better than competitors... competitors who rip off our maps, I should add.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby el-presidente on Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:37 pm

I agree that a more standard method should be used because I think that it is too easy for experienced map makers to get an advanced draft. For example, The Jamaica map by CairnsWK recently was made an advanced draft after 3 versions. This is hardly advanced.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:03 pm

But you fail to consider that his map has all the things required of an Advanced Draft. At Version 1, he likely had territories, names, continents, and everything nailed down. Experienced mapmakers post complete drafts on Version 1, newer mapmakers typically do not.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby the.killing.44 on Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:43 pm

But the Adv. Draft stamp isn't about v1, it's about where the map is at. (I'm not arguing Jamaica didn't deserve that stamp, by the way) I do think we need a standard for the Draft stamp, or at least the Adv. Draft pseudo-stamp. Right now the handbook says that
The draft stamps is required for a map thread to be moved from the drafting room forum to the main foundry. To earn this stamp you must meet the following conditions:

1)The map, first and foremost, must have some sort of clear plan of how production will go

2) Have a playable image. If we quenched it people should be able to play on it. This should included the following:
Territory names
Working legends
Speculative Bonuses
Tentative Border Divisions
3) The working image needs to be beyond rough draft state. This means that you must provide the following:
A working image done in some kind of graphic software. Pencil drawn images and images done on paint will not be accpected.
Two quality updates must be provided.
4) Have honest and interested discussion. Not just you and three friends.

Now, I'm not arguing these guidelines. I'm merely asking that we either update that to the standards we're at today (much higher than that), or make the Draft Stamp (and esp. the Adv. Draft) more easily gettable. I'd go with the first.

Oh, and as an addendum:
Main Foundry
Here is where the bulk of a maps development takes place. Gameplay and graphics will undergo discussion at this point to ensure that:

Right now, I'd say the majority of work is taking place in the Drafts subforum, and progressively getting lesser and lesser as a map progresses.

So, I propose that we update the handbook to today's standards. Changing the Draft stamp to those old guidelines is the other answer, but I think that would be only detrimental to the Foundry.

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Re: I feel that...

Postby gimil on Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:46 pm

The C.A's actually discussed lowers the draft stamp standard to let alot more raw maps into the main foundry so that the newer map maker can get into the dirty with other foundry regulars quicker. Right now it seems the drafting room it more new map makers talking to new map makes.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby Incandenza on Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:50 pm

el-presidente wrote:I agree that a more standard method should be used because I think that it is too easy for experienced map makers to get an advanced draft. For example, The Jamaica map by CairnsWK recently was made an advanced draft after 3 versions. This is hardly advanced.


In all fairness, though, Poison Rome and Trafalgar each went through over a dozen drafts before making it into the main foundry, so it's not like anyone's cutting cairns too much slack.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby oaktown on Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:01 pm

I've been playing with an idea, and since I should be willing to be the guinea pig I'm testing it out in my own map thread...

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=48581&p=1829524#p1829524
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Re: I feel that...

Postby Incandenza on Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:03 am

oaktown wrote:I've been playing with an idea, and since I should be willing to be the guinea pig I'm testing it out in my own map thread...

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=48581&p=1829524#p1829524


Not to hate on ya, but that just seems like stamping writ large.

I know, I know, I should be here bringing solutions rather than shooting down other people's suggestions. But here's something I said in that DiM thread that 44 so graciously dug up: the foundry has become a victim of its own success. It's as true now as it was then. There have never been this many maps in production, ever. Naturally public sentiment is going to be spread much more thinly, though new people have come in and provided welcome new voices (like the aforementioned 44).

I've always thought of mapmakers like Stephensonian Dwarves, people who toil in darkness and obscurity making objects of great beauty (anyone who's read Cryptonomicon will know what I'm talking about). The fact is that the vast majority of CCers simply have no interest in or curiosity about the maps they play on. New maps are brought by the stork, and the best time to raise objections is after a map's been loaded for live play.

The amazing thing is that there are still thousands (if not millions) of potential killer map ideas out there, from the oft-attempted Japan to the Battle of Sekigahara, from a baseball stadium to a cartographic representation of "how a bill becomes a law". Hell, cairns is doing a map of a bloody family tree, all of whom have been dead for two thousand years, and I can't wait to play it. There are niches aplenty that need filling, I was bemoaning to cairns the lack of a legitimate huge classic-gameplay map to compete with 2.1. Larger maps in general would be nice (personally, I think we could institute a 6-month moratorium on maps with fewer than 30 terits save in case of extremely bitching gameplay, but that's neither here nor there). More complex maps would be fantastic. New gameplay features *hint hint lack* would be the absolute shiznit, as the kids are calling it these days.

Of course, the bar gets raised higher and higher, perhaps too high for some people. Maybe it's time to institute some sort of Extreme Sanction, a three-member Supreme Court (to tag along with oak's jury concept) that decides the fate of a map, perhaps when it's time to move from the drafting room to the main foundry, or when it's time to stamp a map with advanced drafts. This Supreme Court would deliberate and give their final judgment on whether or not a map was good enough to proceed. Only if they reach unanimity can a map essentially be killed off. "But Inc, that's so unfair to the mapmaker!" I hear people saying. But is it really? Wouldn't it be kinder to basically pull the person aside and say, "Look, we appreciate the work you've put in, but this simply isn't going to cut it in its present form" than let the damn thing rot in the drafting room until the person eventually loses interest?

I'm not even sure this is a good idea, just kinda weakly lobbing it in everyone's general direction.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby oaktown on Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:34 pm

Incandenza wrote:Wouldn't it be kinder to basically pull the person aside and say, "Look, we appreciate the work you've put in, but this simply isn't going to cut it in its present form" than let the damn thing rot in the drafting room until the person eventually loses interest?

I've done thins dozens of times, but generally the response is "well, I like the idea so i'm going to push on anyway." Don't believe me?

somebody just this weekend wrote:i hear ya, and i think i'll take my chances, if it starts to turn bad, i'll know your right

You can lead a mapmaker to the trash can, but you can't make them pitch.

But I'm on board with the Supreme Court idea. I've been tossing such ideas around with the CAs for the past week, and every version has flaws. As always, my ears and mind are are open, foundry.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby sailorseal on Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:45 pm

Oak, maybe instead of random selection for the court you take a few people and make them a permanent court, that way the decisions are consistent.
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Re: I feel that...

Postby the.killing.44 on Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:52 pm

sailorseal wrote:Oak, maybe instead of random selection for the court you take a few people and make them a permanent court, that way the decisions are consistent.

I don't like this. It would be too set, and more like the system we have in place now. It would be the Foundry people feeding the jury, just like we feed the CAs opinions to advance maps today. I think as long as the juries consist of people with good Foundry opinions, we're good.

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