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Re: Central America [D] V6 FINALLY!!!!! (p1+6)

Postby Incandenza on Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:22 pm

I disagree, I like the idea of a +1 for the sea routes and the canal. It balances out the map a bit, given the two +1s elsewhere, it highlights the most salient physical and economic feature of the entire region (being the canal, of course), and given the high traffic through the sea lanes it's not likely that someone would be able to hold it if they simply dropped it.
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Re: Central America [D] V6 FINALLY!!!!! (p1+6)

Postby lgoasklucyl on Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:04 pm

I have to side with Incan on this one.

It's a bonus that really plays to the importance of the real geographical area, and should be very difficult to hold/drop; even more so than the other bonuses.
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Re: Central America [D] V6 FINALLY!!!!! (p1+6)

Postby oaktown on Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:59 am

The obivious coupling of the Canal/Sea Routes +1 with the Panama +3 gives you a +4 for holding seven territories with four borders - I think this is in-line with the rest of the map. And while it wouldn't be as easy to nab as the +1s up north, it does lend a bit of balance to the map.

The trick will be writing all of this up in a way that is clear to the lowest common denomiator CC user. If you go with the symbols over the lines you will have one symbol for the shipping lanes, one for the ports, and I'm guessing a different symbol for the canal (since the canal is part of the shipping bonus and the ports are not). Your legend will have to explain who can attack what as well as how the shipping lane bonus works - this could be a bit wordy.
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Re: Central America [D] V6 FINALLY!!!!! (p1+6)

Postby Incandenza on Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:37 pm

oaktown wrote:The trick will be writing all of this up in a way that is clear to the lowest common denomiator CC user. If you go with the symbols over the lines you will have one symbol for the shipping lanes, one for the ports, and I'm guessing a different symbol for the canal (since the canal is part of the shipping bonus and the ports are not). Your legend will have to explain who can attack what as well as how the shipping lane bonus works - this could be a bit wordy.


Well, the canal and shipping lane bonus is easy, "Hold Canal and both Shipping Lanes +1", that's not necessarily more onerous than the russia + kaliningrad bonus on Europa.

The ports and shipping lanes are trickier, 'cause you need to explain what the ports attack, what the lanes attack, and differentiate between pacific and atlantic lanes.

It could work if you just use icons (different colors for each side):
"Territories with [icon] can attack and be attacked by Pacific Shipping Lane"
"Territories with [different colored icon] can attack and be attacked by Atlantic Shipping Lane"

I'm sure it could be less wordy, tho...
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Re: Central America [D] V6 FINALLY!!!!! (p1+6)

Postby lgoasklucyl on Fri Apr 17, 2009 5:04 pm

The words of the shipping lane could be the same color as the port symbols, and it could just be:

"Each (port symbol) can attack its respective color lane; and each (shipping lane symbol) can attack ports of the same color."
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Re: Central America [D] V6 FINALLY!!!!! (p1+6)

Postby oaktown on Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:30 am

lgoasklucyl wrote:The words of the shipping lane could be the same color as the port symbols, and it could just be:

"Each (port symbol) can attack its respective color lane; and each (shipping lane symbol) can attack ports of the same color."

It can also just be done graphically using the symbols, which is nice since this is a map of a spanish speaking region.

(port) <==> (lane) <==> (canal)
(canal) + (pac lane) + (med lane) = +1

I still think the canal will need a symbol distinct from the ports, since it is part of the bonus and ports aren't.
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Re: Central America [D] V6 FINALLY!!!!! (p1+6)

Postby ODWO on Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:25 pm

Looking forward to CA map. =D>

If I was reading the msg's correctly, you are looking for something to represent the canal?

If so, maybe try something as simple as .. using symbols ) ~&~ ( .... a leader or arrow could point to it and say (fill in the blank). Or even > < ... only more elongated in some way. What's in between the symbols IS the canal. How you'd do it, or the way it looks is up to you, but the passage is there. Maybe they could be small bricks or steel beams (if can be seen with some sort of detail) since it is more modern day(?). the mosquito coast.

Anyway ... just a passing thought. you guys are probably more perfectionists than I. :) It looks good to me now, just minimal changes, sure. It's a new map. And BETA (?) can give you more time to think it through, and maybe others will respond their thoughts (non-cart's) if this link is provided to give comments somewhere on the game map.

I'll bet car designers say, "But it needs something more" .. all the time. But the car still gets rolled out onto the showroom. ;)

I use CAD everyday. One of the biggest arguments around the office is "what's the standard to use, to maintain?" hard to please all.
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Re: Central America [D] V6 FINALLY!!!!! (p1+6)

Postby lgoasklucyl on Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:13 pm

Can someone give me advice on neat text-wraps??

I can do it after drawing a line with the freeform pen, but it's never quite as even as I would like it to be.

Ideas?
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Re: Central America [D] V6 FINALLY!!!!! (p1+6)

Postby lgoasklucyl on Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:26 pm

Central America
Version 7

Changes:
-Compass is finally a circle
-Boats removed, text in their place
-New key for Helms
-Colored helms used
-Stroke on key less opaque, key moves upwards
-Credits more legible

Issues:
-There are currently 3 different Helms on the map (need advice on which people like the best, assuming they're here to stay):
a: the helms on Canal have an outer glow of a lighter color than the helms to make them more 3D, yet avoid it being TOO realistic
b. the other four helms on territs have a BLACK outer glow to make them more realistic
c. the helm in the key has the deepest outer glow
-The stroke on the key makes the font look a little bit to transparent.
-The stroke of the continent borders on the key is too dark, going to have to fix that by making a whole 'nother copy of the map :roll:
-Maybe the text part of the key could be separated differently?

Ideas?!

Thanks!

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Re: Central America [D] V7; big changes! (p. 1 and 8!!)

Postby oaktown on Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:30 am

Um, your oceans are in the wrong place. :lol:

I like the basic idea of the post symbols - now that the attack dots are gone I see that it'll be important to make the port symbols and sea routes stand out to make it impossible to miss them. The wheels with the light strokes get lost over the sea for me. Dark stroke will be necessary - the wheel in the legend is the best in my opinion.

You are aware that the sea routes to the islands are gone?

There are some little spacing points that I see - Orange Walk and The Cayes look bunched; the "Atlantic Sea Route looks like it is more a part of the mini map than the main map; and I like how the wheel on the south coast of Canal seems to be more on land than on sea.

The map is coming along nicely, Igo... glad to see you're back at it! :D
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Re: Central America [D] V7; big changes! (p. 1 and 8!!)

Postby RjBeals on Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:47 am

Compass is washed out. It looks like you found that image on google, then pasted it onto this map, then desaturated (or used a darker layer blend) to remove the background. It still doesn't fit with the map

Would you consider droping the helms all together, and just adding sea routes, like you had it earlier in the previous versions? Or in the Italy map? I just think the Pacific and Atlantic Sea Routes in the middle of the ocean are a bit confusing. I've added an alternate wheel just to show you a different style. I added a little shadow on the ground to make it "pop" more.

Consider using a black outline/stroke on your lakes. It may help. (not sure)

Is there a way to keep your legend seperated from the rest of the map, like maybe in a subset box or some type of border around it? I think the map would look a bit better if that were cleaned up a bit. See my example. Not saying this is the greatest, but it cleans up that area more.

PSD included, feel free to use or trash this. Good Luck.

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Re: Central America [D] V7; big changes! (p. 1 and 8!!)

Postby lgoasklucyl on Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:31 am

Oak
Um, your oceans are in the wrong place. :lol:

-End of the semester; my brain is friiiiiiied :lol:

I like the basic idea of the post symbols - now that the attack dots are gone I see that it'll be important to make the port symbols and sea routes stand out to make it impossible to miss them. The wheels with the light strokes get lost over the sea for me. Dark stroke will be necessary - the wheel in the legend is the best in my opinion.

-I agree that the dark strokes/outer glow stand out better, I'll update with them throughout the map =)

You are aware that the sea routes to the islands are gone?

-Accidently hit ALL the sea route layers, instead of just the larger ones; oopsie.
There are some little spacing points that I see - Orange Walk and The Cayes look bunched; the "Atlantic Sea Route looks like it is more a part of the mini map than the main map; and I like how the wheel on the south coast of Canal seems to be more on land than on sea.

-All things I can fix rather easily :)

The map is coming along nicely, Igo... glad to see you're back at it! :D

Thanks :D


RJ
Compass is washed out. It looks like you found that image on google, then pasted it onto this map, then desaturated (or used a darker layer blend) to remove the background. It still doesn't fit with the map

-Found it on google, removed the BG, fixed some outline problems, color overlay and some other changes. I've kind of grown to like it, though am open for suggestions on how to better fill that giant open space if most people would like something else better over the compass.

Would you consider droping the helms all together, and just adding sea routes, like you had it earlier in the previous versions? Or in the Italy map? I just think the Pacific and Atlantic Sea Routes in the middle of the ocean are a bit confusing. I've added an alternate wheel just to show you a different style. I added a little shadow on the ground to make it "pop" more.

-I/quite a few people like the additional attack routes as a new gameplay feature- makes it interest past a straightforward map and avoids a lot of bunching up the center like on Indochina (nowhere near as much, but it could end up similar).
-I do like the larger shadow on your helm, though it may be a bit too strong to fit the rest of the map. I'm looking into fixing them up to make them look better in the next version.

Consider using a black outline/stroke on your lakes. It may help. (not sure)

-I've tried it; it kind of screws with the bevel/lighting a bit too much.

Is there a way to keep your legend seperated from the rest of the map, like maybe in a subset box or some type of border around it? I think the map would look a bit better if that were cleaned up a bit. See my example. Not saying this is the greatest, but it cleans up that area more.

-I do like the idea of separating the minimap from the main map somehow (one of the issues I pointed out). I'm not sure your suggestion would fit regarding size, though. I'll see what I can do!

PSD included, feel free to use or trash this. Good Luck.

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-Regardless of whether or not I use it on this map, I will definitely check out the .psd to get some tips on how to make awesome mini-maps :)
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Re: Central America [D] V7; big changes! (p. 1 and 8!!)

Postby iancanton on Fri May 01, 2009 3:51 pm

lgoasklucyl wrote:Oak
Would you consider droping the helms all together, and just adding sea routes, like you had it earlier in the previous versions? Or in the Italy map? I just think the Pacific and Atlantic Sea Routes in the middle of the ocean are a bit confusing. I've added an alternate wheel just to show you a different style. I added a little shadow on the ground to make it "pop" more.

-I/quite a few people like the additional attack routes as a new gameplay feature- makes it interest past a straightforward map and avoids a lot of bunching up the center like on Indochina (nowhere near as much, but it could end up similar).

i agree. the helms are a neater way of solving the bottleneck than having dotted lines that run the length of the map.

anyone who starts in nicaragua is at an obvious disadvantage: as well as being stuck in the middle of the map, it isn't next to a tiny bonus. we can reduce this disadvantage by merging 4 of nicaragua's regions into 2 (merge RAAN with RAAS and jinotega with chinandega, perhaps?). i also think there would be fewer starting issues if the 2-region el salvador bonus became a 3-region one by adding santa ana in western el salvador (the san salvador troop count can be moved sotuh-east, with the name can going in the sea). to restore the starting count of 32 regions, an extra one in guatemala reduces the existing benefit of staring in the north (in 4-player singles, it's always nice to start at one end of a linear map, especially next to two easy bonuses).

Santa Ana is located in the western department of Santa Ana; it is the second most important city of El Salvador.

http://www.tourism.com.sv/destinations/santa-ana.php

to help nicaragua even more (after being reduced to 5 regions), maybe the helm at rio san juan can disappear, sheltering it more?

ian. :)
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Re: Central America [D] V7; big changes! (p. 1 and 8!!)

Postby Incandenza on Fri May 01, 2009 7:30 pm

While adding a terit to el salvador isn't a bad idea, I tend to think that nicaragua can stay the way it is... given the sea lanes, this'll be a pretty easy map to move around in, and it's not like someone's going to really "start" in nicaragua (and even if they did, they have quite a few options for proceeding). In a 1v1, sure, if someone predominantly drops nic and their opponent ends up strong in the small bonuses, that sucks, but that's kinda life when you're talking 1v1s on small maps. And the map is small enough already.

The thing that works for me now is that nic is something of a transitional area, a bonus that probably won't be held all that often, but nevertheless serves as the overland attack route from north to south.
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Re: Central America [D] V7; big changes! (p. 1 and 8!!)

Postby lgoasklucyl on Fri May 01, 2009 7:32 pm

Thanks Ian, let me try to run through this piece by piece :D

anyone who starts in nicaragua is at an obvious disadvantage: as well as being stuck in the middle of the map, it isn't next to a tiny bonus. we can reduce this disadvantage by merging 4 of nicaragua's regions into 2 (merge RAAN with RAAS and jinotega with chinandega, perhaps?).

-The bonus would probably need to be slightly reduce in this instance, no? While it can still be attack via sea routes, it would only have 2 borders in the north and south, and if someone held the bonuses 6 total. Unsure where to go with this one.
Personally, I think I've grown to like the blob in the center of the map. Leads to an interesting dynamic regarding having to work in one direction or the other. Seeing as the two bonuses in the north are only +1s, they don't provide an absolute advantage off the bat (like in Montreal or Siege). Also, introducing the sea route to the middle helps those in the middle of the map (more on this below :)).

i also think there would be fewer starting issues if the 2-region el salvador bonus became a 3-region one by adding santa ana in western el salvador (the san salvador troop count can be moved sotuh-east, with the name can going in the sea).

-I kind of like the smaller bonuses, so a +2 doesn't give too much away if held for one turn. Are you proposing that the 3rd territ be locked in by the other two? In that instance it may work. (ie: Santa ana and Usultan are borders with San Salvador resting further to the west).

to restore the starting count of 32 regions, an extra one in guatemala reduces the existing benefit of staring in the north (in 4-player singles, it's always nice to start at one end of a linear map, especially next to two easy bonuses).

-I do like this suggestion, is there a geographical way to do this?

to help nicaragua even more (after being reduced to 5 regions), maybe the helm at rio san juan can disappear, sheltering it more?

-This one I disagree with, especially in escalating games. If most of your territs are in the middle and you cannot get to others/they have you surrounded, you have no chance of making a kill and sweeping. With the addition of sea routes you can move out of the center and effectively reach the other portions of the map.

Again, thanks for the suggestion.

Everyone let me know what you think about what Ian had to say, as the gameplay is eeeeeveryones job :lol: :)
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Re: Central America [D] V7; big changes! (p. 1 and 8!!)

Postby lgoasklucyl on Fri May 01, 2009 7:33 pm

Incandenza wrote:While adding a terit to el salvador isn't a bad idea, I tend to think that nicaragua can stay the way it is... given the sea lanes, this'll be a pretty easy map to move around in, and it's not like someone's going to really "start" in nicaragua (and even if they did, they have quite a few options for proceeding). In a 1v1, sure, if someone predominantly drops nic and their opponent ends up strong in the small bonuses, that sucks, but that's kinda life when you're talking 1v1s on small maps. And the map is small enough already.

The thing that works for me now is that nic is something of a transitional area, a bonus that probably won't be held all that often, but nevertheless serves as the overland attack route from north to south.


I'm on your side with the sea routes (as I explained regarding especially escalating games in my last post). I can understand the extra in Salvador, though don't see it being 100% necessary.

Way to fast-post my extra long post breaking his apart :D
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Re: Central America [D] V7; big changes! (p. 1 and 8!!)

Postby Incandenza on Fri May 01, 2009 9:14 pm

lgoasklucyl wrote:Way to fast-post my extra long post breaking his apart :D


I aim to please. :D

btw, you should update your first post, as there are now 34 terits, not 32.
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Re: Central America [D] V7; big changes! (p. 1 and 8!!)

Postby oaktown on Fri May 01, 2009 10:05 pm

whew, a lot has happened since I last checked in. There seems to be concerns that Niacaragua is at a disadvantage because of 1) its size and 2) lack of proximity to a small bonus.

It seems like a simpler remedy would be to just make Costa Rica a three territory +2 region. Merging Guanacaste and San Jose would mean it has three territories, two of which are northern borders and two of which are southern borders. We wouldn't have to eliminate a territory, because there'd be 33 territories (the sea routes no longer have to start neutral) which means the following # of starting positions:
  • 1v1: 11 each, 11 neutrals
  • 3 player: 11 each, 0 neutrals
  • 4 player: 8 each, 1 neutrals
  • 5 player: 6 each, 3 neutrals
  • 6 player: 5 each, 3 neutrals
  • 7 player: screw em... nobody should start seven player games on a small map. :lol:
  • 8 player: see above.

I think it might be worthwhile to code El Salvador as starting positions. Splitting up El Salvador between the two players means 31 starting territories, so there would still be 11 territories for each to start the game. Splitting up additional regions - the three territory regions - just means fewer neutrals in a 1v1, which in turn means a bigger drop for the first player, which is what we're trying to avoid.

RjBeals' mini map is worthy of closer inspection: note the playful font he's used for the regions, which really works with the colors you have going on so far, lgoask. And the border makes it really sharp - sharpen the little map up and you can get away with making it smaller, as he has. As for his flowers... [-X

;)
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Re: Central America [D] V7; big changes! (p. 1 and 8!!)

Postby Incandenza on Sat May 02, 2009 2:30 am

The hippo speaks wisdom, even though the way he used "playful" in the last paragraph has always felt like nails on a chalkboard to me... :lol:
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Re: Central America [D] V7; big changes! (p. 1 and 8!!)

Postby oaktown on Sat May 02, 2009 2:52 am

Incandenza wrote:The hippo speaks wisdom, even though the way he used "playful" in the last paragraph has always felt like nails on a chalkboard to me... :lol:

It could have been worse... I could have called it "frisky." :?
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Re: Central America [D] V7; big changes! (p. 1 and 8!!)

Postby lgoasklucyl on Sat May 02, 2009 6:15 pm

Incandenza wrote:btw, you should update your first post, as there are now 34 terits, not 32.

-Apparently I don't know the difference between the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans geographically, I wouldn't expect me to be able to count to 34 if I were you :lol: :lol:

whew, a lot has happened since I last checked in. There seems to be concerns that Niacaragua is at a disadvantage because of 1) its size and 2) lack of proximity to a small bonus.

It seems like a simpler remedy would be to just make Costa Rica a three territory +2 region. Merging Guanacaste and San Jose would mean it has three territories, two of which are northern borders and two of which are southern borders.

-While I will defend the current organization by saying the sea routes provide better access to the +1s, Having a +2 in the south would really help to even the map out between the north and the south.

With your suggestion, however, wouldn't Costa Rica still have three border territs? I don't know the math, but would that make it a +2 or +3?

We wouldn't have to eliminate a territory, because there'd be 33 territories (the sea routes no longer have to start neutral) which means the following # of starting positions:
  • 1v1: 11 each, 11 neutrals
  • 3 player: 11 each, 0 neutrals
  • 4 player: 8 each, 1 neutrals
  • 5 player: 6 each, 3 neutrals
  • 6 player: 5 each, 3 neutrals
  • 7 player: screw em... nobody should start seven player games on a small map. :lol:
  • 8 player: see above.

-I can't even begin to tell you how excited I am to have this territ count. A map just small enough to NOT give the 1st play; 12 territ advantage is something I can look forward to greatly. I hate having to go second in a 12 or 13 starting territ map.

I think it might be worthwhile to code El Salvador as starting positions. Splitting up El Salvador between the two players means 31 starting territories, so there would still be 11 territories for each to start the game. Splitting up additional regions - the three territory regions - just means fewer neutrals in a 1v1, which in turn means a bigger drop for the first player, which is what we're trying to avoid.

-You may need to explain this to me coding wise, as I'm unsure exactly how this would work. Would it just be coded this way to make sure there's no neutrals on El Salvador? Is this negated on 3+ player games?

RjBeals' mini map is worthy of closer inspection: note the playful font he's used for the regions, which really works with the colors you have going on so far, lgoask. And the border makes it really sharp - sharpen the little map up and you can get away with making it smaller, as he has. As for his flowers... [-X

-Perhaps if the frame itself was thinned down it would fit well.

RJ- do you mind sharing that font name with me? I don't think my photoshop rendered it as I don't currently have it :-s

Incandenza wrote:The hippo speaks wisdom, even though the way he used "playful" in the last paragraph has always felt like nails on a chalkboard to me... :lol:

-Damnit, now my map's going in the wrong direction. It's becoming 'playful' ](*,)
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Re: Central America [D] V7; big changes! (p. 1 and 8!!)

Postby oaktown on Sat May 02, 2009 7:15 pm

lgoasklucyl wrote:
leprepotamus wrote:It seems like a simpler remedy would be to just make Costa Rica a three territory +2 region. Merging Guanacaste and San Jose would mean it has three territories, two of which are northern borders and two of which are southern borders.

With your suggestion, however, wouldn't Costa Rica still have three border territs? I don't know the math, but would that make it a +2 or +3?

I knew my post (above) wouldn't make sense. There would be three territories total in Costa Rica, and all three would be border territories. If you were to merge a northern and southern territory, such as Guanacaste and San Jose, two of the territories would still border panama and two would still border nicaragua. What we want to avoid is a bottleneck territory that reaches from coast to coast. And yes, it would be a +2, which would be nice for balance... not sure why we never thought of this solution months ago.

lgoasklucyl wrote:-I can't even begin to tell you how excited I am to have this territ count. A map just small enough to NOT give the 1st play; 12 territ advantage is something I can look forward to greatly. I hate having to go second in a 12 or 13 starting territ map.

True that. I'm still bitter about getting to the semis in a recent Foundry Update 1v1 tourney, and MrBenn got to go first in all of our games. ](*,)

Re. starting territories: don't sweat it, it's just something I'll add in the code. You don't have to do anything to the map. Nobody will even know it's there, and it will have no impact on games with more than two players.
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Re: Central America [D] V8 (p.1+9) !!!!!

Postby lgoasklucyl on Sun May 03, 2009 12:58 pm

Version 8

Changes:
-Changed the helms to all have the black outer glow; duplicated the layer to add a little extra depth to the glow
-Added some gradient to the compass to add contrast, the orange was kind of dull
-Deleted the Guanacaste/San Jose border to make it one territ for a 3 territ +2 bonus; looks kind of ugly though- should I bring the actual land in from the ocean more so it's not such a huge blob? Also, should the name stay San Jose, Guanacaste, or something to encompass both (no idea what the third would be)
-Moved Pacific Sea Route to the right a little so it wasn't in the key
-Made a few small name/army # adjustments so things fit more properly

To-do:
-I'm going to work on a border around the minimap/perhaps changing the font, but am waiting on RJ to return so he can explain to me how he reproduced the land so neatly in his version of the minimap so I can redo that first and make it look better
-Other things

Ideas?!

Thanks!


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Re: Central America [D] V8 !!

Postby oaktown on Sun May 03, 2009 1:51 pm

A ship's wheel behind each of the sea routes would tie them together. As it is, I'm afraid users will think that the wheels can attack each other, as they can on other CC maps - making the Sea Route symbols more prominent might help alleviate this. Better yet, make the sea route symbol slightly different, and slip it behind the words "Sea Route" in the legend. And a period after sea route.

Plenty of room to bring the compass down - it's crowding the map title.
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Re: Central America [D] V8 !!

Postby lgoasklucyl on Sun May 03, 2009 2:49 pm

oaktown wrote:A ship's wheel behind each of the sea routes would tie them together. As it is, I'm afraid users will think that the wheels can attack each other, as they can on other CC maps - making the Sea Route symbols more prominent might help alleviate this. Better yet, make the sea route symbol slightly different, and slip it behind the words "Sea Route" in the legend. And a period after sea route.

Plenty of room to bring the compass down - it's crowding the map title.


Good call- I've also thought about how to better bring out the #s in the sea. As is I feel some individuals playing turns too fast may be prone to missing it.

Perhaps I can make one less opaque under each number and it'll work as a sort of marker in place of an army circle.

Thanks Oak :)

What do you think about the blob that is San Jose now? I think it's horrific looking, personally, lol. Perhaps just chopping down the geography? I don't particularly like to lose land if unavoidable, but combining two cities into one creates a single blob-shaped city about the size of El Salvador :lol:

edit: are you suggesting a different symbol (not the helm) be used to represent the sea routes (along with the words, to avoid confusion)? if so, ideas? i'll look for a bit now.

2nd edit: what about just a mast (is that what the sail-thing is called on big ships?) perhaps two of them layered over one another, color overlayed @ about 60% opacity to the matching sea route color. perhaps ~%75 opacity if I drop the whole layer opacity to put it behind the army #. the numbers i can figure out later.. lol.
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