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Re: Rose City [D] (v 8, pg 4) - graphic & gameplay change!

Postby lostatlimbo on Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:38 am

Eighth Draft update:
Completely re-drew borders for entire map.
Re-drew all Parks, Bridges, & Detours.
Added impassable 'bluffs' to Swan Island. Access only from NW Industrial & MAX stop 7. Upped North bonus to +4.
Bike lanes can now attack other bike lanes. Bonus ONLY for holding all bike lanes.

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Re: Rose City (v 9, pg 4) - New Look

Postby lostatlimbo on Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:42 am

9th Draft update:
Does this tickle anyone's fancy?

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Re: Rose City (v 9, pg 4) - New Look

Postby the.killing.44 on Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:36 pm

You got a 4-way border @ Irvington-Alameda. Gotta fix that up ;)

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Re: Rose City (v 9, pg 4) - New Look

Postby psilotum on Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:19 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:You got a 4-way border @ Irvington-Alameda. Gotta fix that up ;)

.44


Perhaps plop Lloyd Center on the intersection there? I'm not sure if that is the absolute correct position, but it's close.
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Re: Rose City (v 9, pg 4) - New Look

Postby oaktown on Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:05 am

I must admit, this map continues to surprise me. It has a fun look to it. Some bits need some work - the weird blob between Oregon Zoo and Goose Hollow foe example - but it's coming along. The biggest element that isn't working for me visually at all is the photo behind the title... this is a map of vivid, primary colors, and strong graphic elements, but the top of the map looks like it belongs on a different map entirely.

Other bits look great - I especially like how you've approached the rail lines with bold strokes and sharp corners - though I notice that some corners are awkwardly rounded, like the blue corner below PSU. What I think makes the rail lines work is that they are unabashedly flat and bold, as are the colors of the regions which I also like. Ditto the bikes, the botom legend, and the shoe (which makes me chuckle - I wonder what Phil would say??) Meanwhile the bridges are not flat and not bold - you've muted the color palette for the bridges and made them 3-D and shaded, making it look like some kid left some lego pieces on top of your map.

In terms of gameplay there are a few things to sort out still. For starters, we have always tried to avoid four-way borders. The four-way intersection will confuse players who will wonder if Alameda and Irvington connect... i wonder that myself.

And forgive me for not following the discussion on this, but to me the bikes attacking each other makes no sense. Why a bike would allow you to jump directly from St. Johns to Reed leaves me perplexed. It's not logical, and I don't really think it makes the play of the map any better. in fact, I'd say it makes things worse because now the regions are impossible to hold - in the NE every territory is a border, and in the SE only two territs are safe. Wow, now that i look at it, downtown and NW are all border terits as well, and N has only one safe territory. Potentially frustrating map to play, because with unholdable regions with big bonuses, as it will come down to who gets the best drop to start.

And some of the graphic elements lead to gameplay confusion. Station 7 seems to be able to attack a causeway of some sort... is that a link to Swan Island? NW ind?
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Re: Rose City (v 9, pg 4) - New Look

Postby iancanton on Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:10 pm

i agree that the all of the bike lanes connecting with each other (like the bus stations in sydney metro) doesn't improve the gameplay on this classic-sized map. there are no safe areas. more impassables are needed.

u can make old town a non-border territory by moving metro station 5's pointer to nob hill instead of old town. similarly, metro station 8's exit to mississippi can be deleted to achieve the same effect.

the bonuses for holding all parks or all bike lanes are on the niggardly side and will probably be ignored by all except those whose play tends toward the suicidal. u need to increase each of them by at least 4, to +9 and +7 respectively (i've used the number of territories plus one as a rough guide), for them to have any serious role in games. by the same logic, the highlights bonus becomes +5, though this one is easier to capture and therefore won't be quite so readily ignored as a tactical device.

i don't like the fareless square (metro transit center) as a starting territory with a -1 decay, since someone who starts with it is at an immediate disadvantage. it's possible to make it start with one neutral army, so that a player can choose to occupy this point if desired.

if 42 territories isn't quite enough to make a decent number of non-border territories, then 44 is also a good number of total starting territories.

ian. :)
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Re: Rose City (v 9, pg 4) - New Look

Postby lostatlimbo on Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:43 pm

Thanks all for the feedback. I have been swamped with work lately, but I plan on doing some more work on this map & incorporating all these suggestions. Look for another update in the coming weeks.
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Re: Rose City (v 9, pg 4) - New Look

Postby TotoroHat on Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:07 am

I am sure that you are aware of this but Portland extends out to 182 street and beyond on the other side of I-205 before you reach Gresham... Maybe you could include I-205 and some of extreme east PDX... Just a thought. I mean my house is already on the map but I some times feel sorry for the people living east of myself who lives in south east. Also... the bridge that is the farthest south, Is that the Sellwood Bridge or the Ross Island Bridge. The section of Reed covers about 12 neighborhoods including, Brooklyn, East Morland, West Moreland, Sellwood, Wood Stock, Errol, Brentwood, and Bellmont.
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Re: Rose City (v 9, pg 4) - New Look

Postby jwithington on Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:20 pm

YAY PORTLAND MAP!

I love the tiny bit of snark, and the use of bikes. Now you just need to add Mary's club. ;)

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Re: Rose City (v 9, pg 4) - New Look

Postby lostatlimbo on Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:05 pm

TotoroHat wrote:I am sure that you are aware of this but Portland extends out to 182 street and beyond on the other side of I-205 before you reach Gresham... Maybe you could include I-205 and some of extreme east PDX... Just a thought. I mean my house is already on the map but I some times feel sorry for the people living east of myself who lives in south east. Also... the bridge that is the farthest south, Is that the Sellwood Bridge or the Ross Island Bridge. The section of Reed covers about 12 neighborhoods including, Brooklyn, East Morland, West Moreland, Sellwood, Wood Stock, Errol, Brentwood, and Bellmont.


earlier drafts had the east side true to size, but i had to fudge some of the geography for the sake of a good map. sorry.
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Re: Rose City (v 9, pg 4) - New Look

Postby flexmaster33 on Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:29 am

looks better each time I catch a glimpse lost....can't wait to get a chance to play it.
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Re: Rose City (v 10, pg 5) - New Look

Postby lostatlimbo on Sun May 03, 2009 3:46 pm

10th Draft update:
Altered borders in N & NE, by extending railroad tracks to St. Johns and shrinking Swan Island.
Removed 4-way border in NE.
Dropped a Yellow Max stop and added a new territory to NE (Cully).
#6 Max stop no longer attacks Oregon Zoo.
#5 Max stop unchanged. Downtown can be defended with 4 territories either way.
Changed train and bridge graphics.
Removed ability for bike lanes to attack each other.
Fareless square starts with 3 neutral. -1 army each turn held.

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Re: Rose City (v 10, pg 5) - New Look

Postby mibi on Sun May 03, 2009 11:41 pm

Is Portland really as confusing and discombobulated as this map suggests?
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Re: Rose City (v 10, pg 5) - New Look

Postby lostatlimbo on Mon May 04, 2009 7:55 pm

mibi wrote:Is Portland really as confusing and discombobulated as this map suggests?


boy, that's some helpful criticism. care to tell us what you find confusing?

Side note: I did just notice I need to re-add that you can't cross Max lines. I'll put that in the next update.
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Re: Rose City (v 10, pg 5) - New Look

Postby mibi on Mon May 04, 2009 11:06 pm

lostatlimbo wrote:
mibi wrote:Is Portland really as confusing and discombobulated as this map suggests?


boy, that's some helpful criticism. care to tell us what you find confusing?



You know I was initially all for this map in the beginning. As someone pointed out it did have a kitsch aspect to itself, though that has revealed it self over the course of the various drafts as plain old amateurism. It seems like the iconography on this map is growing like malignant tumors. In its current incarnation it looks as if you took a bag webdings and flung it at the map to see what stuck. A bike here, a rose there, a submarine or something, a bridge a rail a road, some parks that escaped from a demented game of Tetris. There is something near Hawthorn which is unlabeled, which I suppose doesn't matter because its also unlabeled in the legend too. It says its a detour, so I will just pretend it's door to another dimension. Oh and there is another detour which is a blue blob. I will have to check out the blue blob next time I am in Portland. I can only imagine a player trying to play this with out BOB. "I got a rose a shoe and a bike, what do I win?!" "No no, you need 6 bikes, or a rose a shoe and one of those black dildo things" An then you have what I am assuming are highways all wrapped up in the bonus structure, with negative bonuses too. With all those bonuses what is the point of even having separate districts in there. Infact, you might as well just take out the whole Porland thing and just have it be a map of random floating icons, because thats pretty much what this is already.

My advice is to take this map and shake the shit of it like an Etch-a-Sketch that has a picture of your ex-girlfriend on it. Shake it hard and long and see how many of those little doodads you can get to fall off. Go back to the Rose City and try to get a sense of what that city is about, and if you still comeback with the same Epcot-chique style you have now, I'd hang up those cartography gloves, because I would be right annoyed if I were a Portland resident and some jackass just turned my city into a child's place mat gone horribly wrong.
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Re: Rose City (v 10, pg 5) - New Look

Postby lostatlimbo on Tue May 05, 2009 9:06 pm

mibi wrote:...I would be right annoyed if I were a Portland resident and some jackass just turned my city into a child's place mat gone horribly wrong.


Misplace anger much?

I know I've gone astray when the guy who created Supermax: Colored Button Riot! tells me I have too many icons.

The 'demented' parks are reasonably close to their actual shapes, though I can't say the same for scale and location - details sacrificed for clarity and balance.
Ditto for the two reservoirs, which seem quite clear as bodies of water. I'd hoped the grey dimensional door would be mistaken for a maddening maze of residential roads - which any Portland resident would instantly recognize as the "no-drive" zone Ladd's Circle.

I don't expect that labeling it as such in the legend will help explain this, but it is clearly an obstruction. Do forgive me for being a little creative and adding detours that stray from the typical mountain-river-fence trifecta that marks most of the 130 maps in play. I'm equally as sorry for using bikes and parks, instead of the typical cannons and battleships. Are you angry that I have too many icons or just that they aren't violent enough for your tastes?

Since Portland isn't actually a war zone, I thought I'd try something new and highlight the things that make Portland unique. The fact that you can easily get anywhere in town by bike (without being run over) isn't something you can say about most US cities. Ditto to an overabundance of park space. If you had bothered to read the legend, you'd know that the "highways" are a light rail transit system (with the highest ridership in the US). These aren't frivolous icons - they are the whole purpose of having a Portland map. I suppose I could have made the 67th war map or drawn artificial borders over yet another random country, but I elected to try something new instead.

And yes, I opted for a kitschy look. From the very beginning, it was meant to look more like a tourist-y brochure extolling all these Portland-y characteristics. I think clean, clear lines and bold colors work well for this map and, again I'll reference NYC map as my initial inspiration in this regard.

Despite your vitriol, your overlying point was not lost on me. The map was getting a bit cluttered visually, so I've made some changes to minimize this by toning down the boldest icons. I've also converted the bike lanes into their own territories - which I believe improves the look & gameplay and gives the bike lanes more purpose.

As for your ex-girlfriend issues - I can't help you, but there are more fish in the sea. When you've gotten your angst under control, come back and let me know if my next update soothes the pain.
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Re: Rose City (v 10, pg 5) - New Look

Postby danfrank on Tue May 05, 2009 9:25 pm

lostatlimbo wrote:
mibi wrote:...I would be right annoyed if I were a Portland resident and some jackass just turned my city into a child's place mat gone horribly wrong.


Misplace anger much?

I know I've gone astray when the guy who created Supermax: Colored Button Riot! tells me I have too many icons.

The 'demented' parks are reasonably close to their actual shapes, though I can't say the same for scale and location - details sacrificed for clarity and balance.
Ditto for the two reservoirs, which seem quite clear as bodies of water. I'd hoped the grey dimensional door would be mistaken for a maddening maze of residential roads - which any Portland resident would instantly recognize as the "no-drive" zone Ladd's Circle.

I don't expect that labeling it as such in the legend will help explain this, but it is clearly an obstruction. Do forgive me for being a little creative and adding detours that stray from the typical mountain-river-fence trifecta that marks most of the 130 maps in play. I'm equally as sorry for using bikes and parks, instead of the typical cannons and battleships. Are you angry that I have too many icons or just that they aren't violent enough for your tastes?

Since Portland isn't actually a war zone, I thought I'd try something new and highlight the things that make Portland unique. The fact that you can easily get anywhere in town by bike (without being run over) isn't something you can say about most US cities. Ditto to an overabundance of park space. If you had bothered to read the legend, you'd know that the "highways" are a light rail transit system (with the highest ridership in the US). These aren't frivolous icons - they are the whole purpose of having a Portland map. I suppose I could have made the 67th war map or drawn artificial borders over yet another random country, but I elected to try something new instead.

And yes, I opted for a kitschy look. From the very beginning, it was meant to look more like a tourist-y brochure extolling all these Portland-y characteristics. I think clean, clear lines and bold colors work well for this map and, again I'll reference NYC map as my initial inspiration in this regard.

Despite your vitriol, your overlying point was not lost on me. The map was getting a bit cluttered visually, so I've made some changes to minimize this by toning down the boldest icons. I've also converted the bike lanes into their own territories - which I believe improves the look & gameplay and gives the bike lanes more purpose.

As for your ex-girlfriend issues - I can't help you, but there are more fish in the sea. When you've gotten your angst under control, come back and let me know if my next update soothes the pain.



Well , he`s from the great state of vermont, Misplaced anger ? only if he is a conservative. Vermont ranks right up there with california as being the far looney left.. Constructive criticism can not be expected from indivuals of this type. Just look at what they did to joe the plumber and Miss california...
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Re: Rose City (v 10, pg 5) - New Look

Postby mibi on Tue May 05, 2009 9:26 pm

lostatlimbo wrote:I know I've gone astray when the guy who created Supermax: Colored Button Riot! tells me I have too many icons.


lol, nice one. I wonder if Lack can do a name change on that map.
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Re: Rose City (v 11, pg 5) graphic & gameplay edits

Postby lostatlimbo on Tue May 05, 2009 9:28 pm

11th Draft update:
  • Added 4 new territories (N Bike Lane, NE Bike Lane, SE Bike Lane, Forest Park Bike Lane) in place of former Bike bonuses. These territories start 6 neutral.
    Now that there are less of these and they are separate (and neutral) territories, I think its okay to have them attack each other. I like the idea of them being a way to move around the map. Neutral armies prevent them from being as detrimental as before and I've upped the bonus to 8 since it will be harder to capture and keep them.
    Is it clear enough that they are connected or does this need to be explained better? Should I add 2 more territories some where for an even 48?
  • I toned down some of the stronger visuals to reduce clutter. I "un-blobbed" the reservoirs to the best of my ability and flattened out various other icons.
  • I added Max Lines to the Detour (Don't Cross) list and labeled these. I don't know what else to call Ladd's Circle. Road maze? If the neighborhoods don't need explanation - why this?
  • I'm open to suggestions for a better legend background.

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Re: Rose City (v 10, pg 5) - New Look

Postby lostatlimbo on Tue May 05, 2009 9:33 pm

danfrank wrote:Just look at what they did to joe the plumber and Miss california...


Aren't they in one of Obama's Socialist Reprogramming Camps by now?

(Pssst... I don't want to alarm you, but Oregon is also known as one of the most liberal states in the Confederacy, ...I mean, the USA. Ooops!)
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Re: Rose City (v 11, pg 5) graphic & gameplay edits

Postby iancanton on Thu May 07, 2009 6:50 pm

lostatlimbo wrote:11th Draft update:
[list][*]Added 4 new territories (N Bike Lane, NE Bike Lane, SE Bike Lane, Forest Park Bike Lane) in place of former Bike bonuses. These territories start 6 neutral.
Now that there are less of these and they are separate (and neutral) territories, I think its okay to have them attack each other. I like the idea of them being a way to move around the map. Neutral armies prevent them from being as detrimental as before and I've upped the bonus to 8 since it will be harder to capture and keep them.

6 starting neutrals simply means that no-one will attack the bike lanes, so they'll be useless as a method of transport.

lostatlimbo wrote:Should I add 2 more territories some where for an even 48?

i strongly recommend that the number of non-neutral starting regions is either 42 to 44 or 52, but certainly not 48. this is because, with 48 starting regions, each player in a 2v2 game starts with 12 regions so, by conquering only 1 region, player 1 can knock down player 2's deployment to only 3 armies before he's had a chance to do anything.

lostatlimbo wrote:#5 Max stop unchanged. Downtown can be defended with 4 territories either way.

the downtown bonus needs defenders on all 6 regions, since #5 max can attack both pioneer and goose hollow. if u delete the pioneer exit and change the goose hollow one so it goes to nob hill instead, then downtown will have only 4 border regions (but it also splits downtown in half, with no easy way to go between the two).

ian. :)
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Re: Rose City (v 11, pg 5) graphic & gameplay edits

Postby lostatlimbo on Thu May 07, 2009 7:50 pm

iancanton wrote:6 starting neutrals simply means that no-one will attack the bike lanes, so they'll be useless as a method of transport.

Good point. Initially, you'd have to off 12 armies to get anywhere. What about 4 neutrals? Or 3?

iancanton wrote:the downtown bonus needs defenders on all 6 regions, since #5 max can attack both pioneer and goose hollow. if u delete the pioneer exit and change the goose hollow one so it goes to nob hill instead, then downtown will have only 4 border regions (but it also splits downtown in half, with no easy way to go between the two).

I'm afraid you are wrong here. To defend downtown, you only need to place troops on Nob Hill, The Pearl, PSU and Max Stop #5. This makes it somewhat comparable to SE, in that you'd need to hold 7 territories, but only defend 4. They both have a bonus of +5.

I'll try to make another update this weekend. Thanks for the insight, ian!
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Re: Rose City/Portland, OR (v 12, pg 5) gameplay edits & poll

Postby lostatlimbo on Mon May 11, 2009 2:20 am

12th Draft update:
Removed Bike Lane bonus and lowered neutrals to 3 a piece - resetting if held one round.
Transit Center is now -1 only if a MAX bonus is held.
Raised MAX bonuses by 2 each.
Lowered N bonus to 3.

Click image to enlarge.
image
Last edited by lostatlimbo on Wed May 13, 2009 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rose City/Portland, OR (v 12, pg 5) gameplay edits & poll

Postby lostatlimbo on Mon May 11, 2009 11:05 pm

poll bump
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Re: Rose City/Portland, OR (v 12, pg 5) gameplay edits & poll

Postby Teflon Kris on Wed May 13, 2009 5:21 pm

HI

Latest Changes
On your latest update you mention bonus changes - however, they seem the same as previously in the update.

Bike Territories
I'm wondering if you will still have the same problem with killer neutrals, as opposed to the large-ish (6) neutrals you had before.

Players will often go through one killer neutral territory to reach an opponent (and hit their bonus etc) but I imagine it would be extremely rare for players to lose troops going through two killer neutral territories. I can see your aim here - you want the bike routes to be an alternative, but difficult attack route. Perhaps you could have 'decay' on the bikes instead (i.e. they lose 1 army per round rather than resetting to neutral)? It may also be worth considering why the bike lanes would have decay - you may need to explain this in the key (e.g. they are too narrow for military operations).

Number of Territories
As far as I can see, you have 48, with 4 starting neutral (the bikes) - 44 starting territories - this is a great number for gameplay purposes as ian mentioned above.

Metro Bonuses
My reading of the bonus key (and probably most players' reading) is that only one player could hold metro bonus(es) due to the central junction being required by all. Just thought I'd double-check. This would make the central territory a key position, although it may deter many players from trying to secure a metro bonus. I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with that, just food for thought when thinking through how games may develop.
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