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Re: American Revolution *updated 5/19/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Thu May 21, 2009 5:57 am

whitestazn88 - first off, thanks for the input.

The more I look at the map, i think having canada out of the game is for the best. Given that Elijah S is going for a more American Rev. game, it seems apt that I should push the 13 American Colonies more and of which Canada was not.

I'm thinking of taking a couple possible routes with the extra space, and everyone feel free to comment on this

1) Fit the third Indian Territory back in and use them as links up and down the western border, start neutral 3, no killer neutral .
2) Leave it at two Indian territories and clean up the western space with a quote or graphic

Otherwise I'm at a loss for ideas on that right now. Any help on that is appreciated.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *updated 5/19/09*

Postby MrBenn on Thu May 21, 2009 7:08 am

It's nice to see that you've used the correct version of the Union flag for the period, although the flag doesn't seem to blend into the map properly right now.

For me the bigget concern is that the map appears to have a mini identity crisis... You've clearly mentioned the 13 Colonies on the title, yet have only got 6 bonus regions, and there are more than 13 territories... as a Non-American (while familiar with the broad detail of the American Revolutionary War / Battle for Independence) the specific locations of the thirteen colonies is hazy and not clearly defined enough here to justify that as a subtitle. You've made allusions to particular battles(through some territory names), but not enough to give a sense that a war / rebellion / invasion was going on :-k

If the colonies were more clearly delineated, then there would be a good opportunity to 'unite the 13 colonies', possibly even as some kind of objective??

That's my main random thought/observation.

You alluded to the fact that you were going to have to (re)draw some borders freehand. If you zoom in really close (800% or more), and use a 2-3px brush, then mouse-wobble becomes less of an issue ;-)
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *updated 5/19/09*

Postby Ace Rimmer on Thu May 21, 2009 7:55 am

I think the graphics of this map look good, and I think that changing it from "American Revolution" to "The 13 American Colonies" was a good idea. I also think that the removal of Canada was a good idea.

What about basing it off of something like this: http://www.scarsdaleschools.k12.ny.us/mslib/images/13colmap.gif with each colony having a few territories, then getting a bonus for holding each colony? I think that makes more sense than how you have them grouped now for bonuses. The other option would be to just have five bonus regions (one for each of the Colonies group plus the boats) but that may make gameplay too difficult.

A bonus for each colony would be a problem with Rhode Island and Delaware at least, I don't see you splitting them into more than one territory. Maybe make them +1 auto deploy? I don't know if that would make it a problem at the start since I assume someone would drop them. You could always make them neutral to minimize this problem.

Since Vermont was disputed between New Hampshire and New York, how about having that as a territory that gives you a bonus if held in conjunction with either NY or NH? If you hold all NY, NH, and VT the bonus would still just be +1 though.

Also see that Maine was part of Massachusetts at the time, so that may pose a problem, since they did not border each other. Maybe use one of the ships to get between the two instead of having to go through NH.

I like the idea of the Indian Territories as killer neutral shortcuts between some of the colonies. I think the way you have it now with the two Indian Territories is a good idea.

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Re: The 13 American Colonies *updated 5/19/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue May 26, 2009 5:10 am

Mr Benn - Ok, you make a real good point about the colonies not being identified. I'm working on coming up with a solution to that. As you can see from the progress, this kind of went from an American Revolution theme to the current 13 colonies. I've decided to run witht he 13 colonies style over the American rev. as my plans for the American rev. style seemed to be lacking given the map that I've created. I think it will be much better suited as a 13 American Colonies map than American rev. So then you're points do have weight about the identity of the colonies, next update should address that. Thanks for your thoughts.

Jake - First off thanks for the feedback. Glad you liked the changes that have been made. As for a regrouping of colonies, I'm working out some sort of system that will give each of the 13 colonies a place in the map and not just grouped as part of a bonus. As for Vermont, I think I'm going to just leave it as it is b/c when I was looking at some of the period maps, Vermont or the territory that woul dbe come Vermont, was not included in the colonial border. Not sure why exactly, but I think sticking to the 1763 border line will be the route for this one as there's not a whole lot of room there to play with a playable feature.

As for Maine or Massachusetts Bay as I've seen it labeled. It's probably going to be the toughest colony to work with for the reasons you said. Stay tuned for the next update and we'll see what I can come up with. Rhode Island and Del. are also gonna be a pain, we'll see how that goes as well. Thanks again for the feedback.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *updated 5/19/09*

Postby MrBenn on Wed May 27, 2009 6:34 pm

I just noticed that your poll ended a while ago...

Poll Result

How should British Canada be played?
Poll ended at Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:11 pm

Neutral... 9... 47%
Neutral with a bigger bonus... 4... 21%
Killer Neutral... 3... 16%
Open deployment (just got to be lucky!)... 2... 11%
Open deployment with open deployment Indian Territories... 0... No votes
Open deployment with starting neutral territories, not killer... 1... 5%

Total votes : 19
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *updated 5/19/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun May 31, 2009 2:09 pm

OK, I've been thinking about it and here's what I thought are the three possible ideas for solving the 13 colonies problem. For further reading on that, see above comments.

1) Cut the borders out of the states and redistribute the bonus areas. Each colony is worth a bonus depending on its size. Colonies like Rhode Island will get 1 bonus for occupying it. Bigger colonies, like Pennsylvania, will get a larger bonus.

2) Leave the bonus areas as they are but stipulate that holding a colony will also get a bonus based on a key in some of that dead space I've got to the left. I am considering adding a color variation to each colony, for example Penn is in the red bonus region but will be a dark red than Maryland and Delaware will be a lighter. Or just using a different border color for the colonies.

3) Cut out all the borders within the states and set the map at 13 land terrs, 2 indian terrs and 4 ship terrs.

Any thoughts or new ideas are welcome, there'll be a new poll up for people to vote. Please comment if you have something to say. thanks!
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:29 am

You need to up the territory count as best you can. I would say throw out option C (way too few territories), and perhaps go with a variation on Option B. Consider having multiple territories per state as you have now, with cities and/or important locations as titles. The script font may need to go to fit things better, and you'll likely need to re-engineer bonuses. A bunch of mini-bonuses is a perfectly fine gameplay (look at USA Map Pack).
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby dolomite13 on Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:23 am

The USA map pack that breaks the map down into states and sub divides states by the major cities might be a good way to have only 14 colonies but more than 13 territories that can be conquered.

Great job thus far =)

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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby whitestazn88 on Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:22 pm

yo, whitestazn88 here for the preliminary review. i believe i wrote here about a week ago, and there hasn't really been much changed since then. it looks good, and i'm pretty happy with how the gameplay looks thus far.

the only thing i'm concerned about is the indian territories and how useful they might be... i think instead of having them revert to neutral 3, they should start neutral, but have a +1 autodeploy for holding them. that would put them into play more often
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:30 am

ALL- Anyway, I'm not intending to update this map graphically until the poll is over or the outcome seems very predictable. I figure its best to have a discussion before I put any more time on Photoshop changing the map. So we'll see where this goes with the poll and discussion and then go from there.

Tactix - Ok, I counted 34 terrs. that are playable which I think is reasonably good. One this I tried to avoid was overcrowding on this map and there's spots where it already feels like it. Not sure if I want to push it any more. While Classic has 42 terrs., Australia, Ireland and France 1789, has mid 30s, Luxembourg has 19. I don't really feel that having a mid 30's count of terrs is going to harm the map.

As for important cities or maybe battle sites or something, I'm not throwing the idea out and will consider it, however right now it just doesn't seem viable with space.

I did take a look at the map pack maps as I've never played on it before. Pretty interesting how all that is fit in there and I'll keep it in mind when I go to make the next update.

Thanks again for your feedback!

Dolomite - Thanks for the feedback, Ive been taking a look at the map packs recently and getting a few ideas. I don't totally want to swipe the ideas there, but its good inspiration. Thanks again!

Whitestazn - Yeah, not much has happened, lol. Just waiting to get some feedback on the latest stumbling block. you make a good point about the Indian terrs. and as I'm thinking about it now, I might just make them start neutral 3 and not killer, as for an auto deploy... hmm, its an interesting idea. My initial reaction is that it would make the Indian terrs too powerful. A player can then stack up on the Indian terr. and threaten the entire game from the rear, which would be against the American Rev. idea but favorable to stress the relationship of the colonies with the indians. Do you think maybe having a collected bonus of 1 or 2 would be good? It gives weight to the terrs as more than quick routes yet doesn't over power them. Thoughts?
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby MrBenn on Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:22 pm

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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby jefjef on Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:38 pm

Long island can and should also be an area. Historically the english landed there and washington withdrew to the main land. also I think british canada (3 areas) should not be worth 6... 4 at most... =D>
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:32 pm

I think I'm pretty happy about dropping the British Canada bonus, to be honest, and don't see it coming back.

As for using Long Island as a terr., that's not a bad idea, I just wonder if there's space between New York and the ship. I'll play around with it and see if its possible.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby ustus on Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:46 pm

could you just move the ship a little to make room? you don't have to find room if you can make it.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby targetman377 on Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:04 pm

i really like this idea i think its a great map. and i can not wait to play it
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby josta59 on Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:56 pm

'Bout time we got the Revolution on up in heah!
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:38 am

Ok, semi-update...

First off, thanks everyone who's expressed excitement with this map!

Secondly,

I played with the ship and Long Island. The terr. fits in there reasonably well. I'll keep playing with it, but it definitely belongs there.

I also tried playing with the glow around the indiv. colonies to designate the original 13.... not going well at all. In this pic you can see it around New Jersey and New York. I tried playing with the border color as well.. not pretty. So thoughts or ideas regarding that would be appreciated.

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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Wed Jun 10, 2009 6:59 am

The only thing that bothers me with this map is it's historical accuracy. First off, this is called the 13 American colonies, but there are only 6. If i remember correctly, the 13 original colonies were Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, Connecticut, Rhode Island, and New Hampshire. I know that you have to make decisions based on the gameplay aspect, but i think it would be better if this was a little more historically accurate. Also, why not just name Bunker hill Massechussettes?
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:23 am

Led -

Yeah, I know what you mean. i'm trying to work that out at the moment, see the poll and above discussion. One of the possibilities was to have a bonus for each colony in addition to the existing regional bonuses... I'm having trouble working that out graphically though. It's possible that i might just abandon the regional bonuses and go for a bonus for each colony, giving each its own color region, ect. I'm going to wait until thepoll ends on the 14th before making the final decision. Stay tuned for future updates.

As for the names of each colony, when this started out as an American Rev. map, I had the names reflect the battles fought there. As this map is going towards a 13 colonies approach rather than American Rev. i will change many of the names probably with the next update.

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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Jun 10, 2009 12:40 pm

That is surely coming along. Good work thus far. :)

I like the general graphical theme you have going on the map. It's clean, crisp, smooth---albeit flat. Very flat.

Anyways, the ships, however, don't seem to reflect the type of graphical theme you have in the rest of the map (comparing it to the texture of the land/water, the tree icons, and the upper scroll legend). I suppose the same could even be said for the lower legend as well. There seems to be two different, though somewhat similar I give you, competing visual styles in the map.

Hm, when I first looked at this update of the map, I first thought: emptiness. The center area of the map is jam-packed, and then the right and left "border" areas almost look strangely sparse (especially the left area).

I see you mentioned you were experimenting with border styles---the current option you have right now is very simple. Could be a good thing, could be a bad thing. Depends on how the map progresses graphically---if that is the direction that map is headed in perhaps they are fine---if not, perhaps they feel a little underdone.

Keep up the good work.


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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby jefjef on Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:08 pm

8-)
Last edited by jefjef on Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby riodeishere on Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:34 pm

this seems to be a great idea, and the drafts have improved massively. the work so far is brilliant.
the only thing is that the bonus of each area is un-proportional. but that will be sorted once (if) it becomes beta.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby whitestazn88 on Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:37 pm

the update looks good, i like the addition of long island

here's my most recent thought on the indian territories. at this point, if i were playing the game, i'd rather take the boats than an indian territory, because my opponents are holding the boats, and the boats can then attack bonuses that are too far away.

to make the indian territories more viable, i'd put them in as neutral 2s and then maybe make them have a bonus of +1 or 2 as you said earlier.

keep up the good work
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:05 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Led -

Yeah, I know what you mean. i'm trying to work that out at the moment, see the poll and above discussion. One of the possibilities was to have a bonus for each colony in addition to the existing regional bonuses... I'm having trouble working that out graphically though. It's possible that i might just abandon the regional bonuses and go for a bonus for each colony, giving each its own color region, ect. I'm going to wait until thepoll ends on the 14th before making the final decision. Stay tuned for future updates.

As for the names of each colony, when this started out as an American Rev. map, I had the names reflect the battles fought there. As this map is going towards a 13 colonies approach rather than American Rev. i will change many of the names probably with the next update.

Thanks for the feedback!

ok...
as for the regional bonuses, you could do it as the three i learned about in history class this year. New England, The Middle, and The South. You could have every colony as one territory, in which case you would have 13 territories, then you could add more boats, to add territories, and eliminate the straightness. Keep the british canada, but maybe also add some native american territories.

I think that your graphics are really good. but i think all that needs work is the historical accuracy, and the gameplay.
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Re: The 13 American Colonies *New Poll, 5/31/09*

Postby jefjef on Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:33 am

You know what.... as few territories as there are on this map it may be best to have each state as its own bonus.OR increase # of bonus areas (like split New England & the Carolinas& make Maryland & deleware its own region & add a baltimore area to it. & put Trenton w/ Penn)...The value could reflect the historical population & economic value of the day...... Be a lot of bonuses but all would be small....And shouldn't a ship actually connect to Yorktown? It would play well & is relative historically
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