Land and Sea [Quenched]

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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby Danyael on Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:19 pm

you could change to arrow colours so instead of them being all the same make sea to sea connections blue to blue land to sea conections green to blue
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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby edbeard on Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:28 pm

I don't think there's any problem with the arrows at the moment. People just aren't reading which we can't do anything about. It's been made more than clear with both words and visuals.
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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby danfrank on Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:02 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Much debate occurred about the arrows, and I think they are suitably understandable for game play. Other's thoughts?


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i think this map is terrible... The graphics are sub par for what is expected in the foundry..
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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby danfrank on Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:13 pm

MrBenn wrote:This map has developed nicely, and is very clean and crisp. Getting a map to this stage is no mean feat, so you can be proud of your achievement over the past however-many-months :-p

Anyway, here's my take on the graphics - the intention here is to help you put some thought into making some tweaks to bring the map up to the next level... please take any criticism in the constructive manner in which I mean it

1. Territory Borders

For the most part, the borders are crisp and clear; but in some places there is pixellation/fuzziness (eg. Newton/Cloverdale).
In a couple of spots, the borders don't meet cleanly (eg. Boundary Bay/Burns Bog or Aldergrove/Campbell Valley/Glen Valley).
Where territory names overlap the borders, it might be worth moving some borders to make it more clear where the name blongs (eg you could redraw the bottom of UGC so it isn;t overlapped by the K of Kerrisdale; or in Edmonds, you could move the border to be above the text). There are countless examples of maps where the borders have been slightly distorted to assist legibility, and I think you may have to make some similar geographical sacrifices here

2. Territory Names

As mentioned before, there are a number of places where the text overlaps territory names. You could either resolve this by moving some borders slightly, reducing the font size a little, or possibly even finding a new font altogether?
Some of the text on pale areas of the map (Burnaby) is difficult to read. It might be worth playing around with an outer glow on the text instead of just a drop shadow.

3. Textures

The sea/rivers feels a bit fluffy - have a look at some other maps around (Charleston springs to mind) for some ideas of how to highlight the transition between land and water
In spite of the texture on the land, the map still feels very flat; the texture doesn't feel very 'landy'... it might be worth having a bit of a play around a bit...

4. Train Lines

The purple (pink?) line runs very close to the coast in the yellow area; if you can pull it away from the terrtory edge a little, it will be more obvious that the territry extends beneath it, and that the train line isn't a border. You could possibly add (or increase the distance) of the drop shadow, to make it feel more like the line is above the territory space.
The colouring you've used on Downtown is a little bit confusing, and really doesn;t help visibility of the army number. Consider extending the colour around parts of the circle edge (you could split it almost three ways) - check out the train lines on NYC to see how the double-line-stations are done on there; I'd suggest trying to emulate that style as much as possible as people should be familiar with that concept.

5. Title

A good title should feel like part of the map, and at the moment it feels like it doesn't really belong there and is just filling a convenient space. If you're happy with it, that's fine, but It would be nice to see if there's any way to make it come alive a little bit

6. Legend

The legend is broadly functional, although I'm not sure how easy it is to match up the coloured blobs with the region colours.
The train line symbols aren't clearly differentiated from the other blobs - at first I was looking for another railway line across the Coast Mountains
The order of regions on the legend doesn't seem to correspond with their positions on the map.
The ports symbol doesn;t do a great deal for me, and looks more like a snowflake - this is entirely subjective really I know (think?) you had an attack line over the sea in an earlier version, but it would be nice to see how a narrow dashed/dotted line works now - you could use the current border line colour instead of white?

7. The Small Map

The train lines (at least the stations) will have to be moved a little bit on the small map in order to keep the army numbers centered properly. At some point it would be helpful to see a small version (even if it's just a shrunken large one) to get an idea of any further adjustments that are going to be necessary

All in all, your doing well. Keep up the good work


Why Does this map not have a critiqueing like this one ???????? The graphics on vancouver is 100 times better than land and sea.. The two big blue blobs in the center of the map :lol: :lol: Looks like the artic is growing :-s Also people have legitimate claims about attack routes and there dismissed as if it does not matter :-s
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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:47 am

I understand your concern, danfrank. I encourage you to become more active in the Foundry Process so you can help shape and form maps. :)


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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby gimil on Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:23 pm

danfrank wrote:
Why Does this map not have a critiqueing like this one ???????? The graphics on vancouver is 100 times better than land and sea.. The two big blue blobs in the center of the map :lol: :lol: Looks like the artic is growing :-s Also people have legitimate claims about attack routes and there dismissed as if it does not matter :-s


1. Legit concerns on the arrows have been discussed at lengh and have been agreed to have no real major concern overall.

2. This map has achieved graphically what it intended to. To create a crisp, clean map with straight forward graphics. Many people liked it that way and that is how in managed to make it through the foundry. It isn't sub par, only different.
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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby oaktown on Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:18 am

No two maps are created entirely equal... if every map had to look as good as the best looking CC map, we'd only have one map. Vancouver is a beautiful map in its own right, and is on the road to completion.

As for this map, the biggest gameplay issue seems to be the way territories connect. I agree that if you read the legend everything is fine, but its become obvious that many people do not bother to read it and are then turned off by the amp. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, right?

However, as the mapmaker you can lead a horse to a muddy cesspool of disease, or to a crystal blue oasis. While I don't think this map should be overhauled to rework the arrows, I think you (gimil) could take some little steps to make players more likely to notice/access the legend and the arrows/

For starters, I have never liked (and I've said this a few times) that in some places on the image the text is transparent with a grey border, in some places it is black with a white border, and the arrows are a transparent grey with a litghter grey border. For me this has two results: 1) some elements seem more important that other elements, and 2) the image is not clean and balanced. By far the easiest on the eye and thus the most accessible text on the map are the territory titles - and they should be. But the arrows are given much less prominence than the territory titles and as a result are kind of lost in the image.

Next, the text in the top right legend in uninviting. The white stroke on the letters makes the text run together, and its something of a chore to read. Knock the stroke down a point - and perhaps make everything a point size smaller - and the eye can fix itself on the text more easily. And since the part about Land and Sea do not connect is what folks are failing to read maybe that should be first, or somehow more prominent?

And this is the last time I'll say that if the text in the two legends were given the same weight the map would be more visually in balance.

And since the land/sea borders are impassable, have you given any thought to upping the thickness of the borders by a pixel? Right now they are the same weight as the conventional borders between territories, leading to confusion.
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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby jefjef on Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:26 am

Good map - attractive - very basic & easy to play/follow.. I like it as is......... Great job!!
This post was made by jefjef who should be on your ignore list.
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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby gimil on Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:52 am

Would this work for you oaktown?

Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby oaktown on Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:28 am

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I think that these arrows look much better than the old gray ones... they now belong on the same image as the text. And if anybody complains that they didn't see the arrows now they should be thwacked repeatedly on the side of the head.

If you really want to make this map idiot proof you could move "are" in the last line line of the legend up next to "regions" and put an example arrow next to the text.
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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby Incandenza on Sun Jun 28, 2009 1:46 pm

oaktown wrote:And since the part about Land and Sea do not connect is what folks are failing to read maybe that should be first, or somehow more prominent?


This strikes me as a terrific suggestion. Relatively speaking, that datum is more important than that about the wrapping terits (which should be second) and MS (which should be last, it has the least impact on overall gameplay)... then again, my sympathy level for people who play new maps and don't take thirty seconds to read and digest the legend (especially on a reasonably straightforward map such as this) is notoriously low... :D
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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby edbeard on Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:32 pm

I'm fine with the map as is but shouldn't the map have come out of Beta after gimil's proposed changes? like I said don't matter to me but seems strange
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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby Gilligan on Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:50 pm

Black arrows = much better
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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:08 pm

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but "Arctic" is misspelled "Artic" on the map depicting the bonuses. Despite that, I do believe I will try this map soon. It looks sharp and well thought out.
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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby edbeard on Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:13 pm

ender516 wrote:I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but "Arctic" is misspelled "Artic" on the map depicting the bonuses. Despite that, I do believe I will try this map soon. It looks sharp and well thought out.


thanks for the post and pointing that out. actually, it is correct on the uploaded map but I've just neglected to update the first post with the latest version. That's done now. Hope you enjoy the map.
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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby gimil on Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:05 am

Does this work for everyone then?

Click image to enlarge.
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Click image to enlarge.
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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:07 am

Looks about right to me. I should tell you I have played this map: 1 game, 1 win! \:D/ I may retire from it undefeated... ;)
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Re: Land and Sea [Beta]

Postby cthoenen1 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 10:11 pm

I am 1 for 2 on this map. I really like it!

I think the Mediterranean has been white both times though, 'cause I never noticed it was there until i read this thread!
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Re: Land and Sea [Quenched]

Postby zeros on Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:12 pm

Hi folks! I'm not sure if this thread is dead but I'll write in anyway.

I'm considering a return to CC very soon, and have just been browsing the maps to see what's been happening for the last year. This map looked interesting, but at first glance, I was not sure if NA1 and AT3 are allowed to attack each other (since there is no arrow connecting these two territories in spite of the other arrows nearby). So I decided on visiting this 'Discussion topic' for some enlightenment.

After twenty minutes, I've read through loads of the posts but have not found a definitive answer (in spite of seeing several references along the lines of 'arrows should make it obvious').

So I'll ask a straightforward question, to which I hope to get a straightforward 'YES' or 'NO'..............

Can NA1 and AT3 attack each other?
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Re: Land and Sea [Quenched]

Postby natty dread on Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:13 pm

no
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Re: Land and Sea [Quenched]

Postby zeros on Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:16 pm

Thanks Natty. Prompt and to the point as ever. Much appreciated.
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Better borders on "Land and Sea"

Postby BigFuzzyBunny on Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:07 pm

I think the continents need a thicker stroke around them (Except for where the passages to the sea are). It is very difficult to tell where you can and cannot cross on this map. Just because regions are touching (which on most maps means you can go that way) doesn't mean you can on this one. There are no real indication that you can't - the arrows when you can cross are not enough.
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Re: Better borders on "Land and Sea"

Postby TheForgivenOne on Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:22 pm

Moved to the Foundry
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Re: Better borders on "Land and Sea"

Postby gimil on Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:43 pm

BigFuzzyBunny wrote:I think the continents need a thicker stroke around them (Except for where the passages to the sea are). It is very difficult to tell where you can and cannot cross on this map. Just because regions are touching (which on most maps means you can go that way) doesn't mean you can on this one. There are no real indication that you can't - the arrows when you can cross are not enough.


This topic has been merged with the land and sea development thread.

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Re: Land and Sea [Quenched]

Postby gimil on Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:46 pm

Hi BigFizzyBunny,

If you read the legends it clearly states that land and sea territories can only be crossed via the arrows present on the map. It is the first rule in the legends and makes it quite clear that land and sea regions are not connect just because they touch. Hope this clear things up for you.


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