Japan - 日本 - Quenched

[AndyDufresne]

The above post has some good ideas, though I'm afraid that space and room for icons as such may be limited---due to how close all the borders and names are.


--Andy

[RedBaron0]

True, to add in the class system, I'd probably have to focus in primarily on central Honshu and turn into more of a feudal era map. I'm not to hot on that idea myself.

My feelings are if you can't at first get a simpler, basic Japan map through the foundry then the reason no one has been able to fill this niche, is there isn't really a niche to fill. Part of it may be the basic geography of Japan is too up and down, so even though there have been good attempts, with good mapmakers, at making Japan, it just will never get the support it needs.

On a side note, how about the map without the mountains? Does it look a little more playable if I don't add them back? I can work on merging some of the smaller territories together and repositioning territory borders, to reduce the overall clutter of the map.

[barterer2002]

The above post has some good ideas, though I'm afraid that space and room for icons as such may be limited---due to how close all the borders and names are.


--Andy

Well you could put crossed swords (similar to the sword and scabbard of the majors I suppose) on a tert on each bonus region without too much effort. Sapparo, Fukushima, Nagano, Tochigi, Shiumane and Kagoshima could all support this I think.

really though I think that the class structure of Japan lends itself more to a different type of map (I'm thinking of the way that Prohibition Chicago doesn't really take the city or Poison Rome doesn't take Rome in) and that's not the way that RB wants to take this one which is all good in my book.

I'm not sure that Japan lends itself to a simple map there Mike but I'll try to get some more ideas for you tomorrow if I come up with some.

[AndyDufresne]

As pointed out, a simple geographic map involving Japan has always been, hm, difficult to make work, gameplay wise and graphic wise.

Most of the attempts, I recall, tried to go for the standard 40+ territories, similar to the Classic Map. What if you went a smaller route---it'd clear up some problems, or at least, make things more manageable. For instance, two maps that come to mind --- USA-West has 24 territories I believe, and USA-Southwest has 32. Perhaps 32 might be an idea to consider....


--Andy

[MrBenn]

Great! Good Luck.

I recommend you consider including ports (eg: Hakodate, Sendai, Yokohama, Kobe, Kyushu, Okinawa, Shikoku).

Mr P.

[Merged] - this post was in the map ideas thread, and is now up the page a bit ^^

[RedBaron0]

I've taken Andy's advise and pared the number of territories down to 32, eliminating 1 bonus region in the process.

I've also changed out the background image to an oriental fabric wave design, but I really liked that dragon so I painstakingly cut the dragon out and masked behind the bonus minimap - newly added, replacing the named bonuses on the folding screen. I still need to add the names of the bonus regions back onto the minimap.

The main country outline is a stronger line and the bonuses are also separated by a stronger line.... but most land bonus connections are short. I've also added quite a few sea territory connections that I think even out the playing field, at least some. North and South aren't as easily defensible and I could see landing just about anywhere on this map and having a chance, although the pink region (Hokuriku) is screaming "classic Europe" to me...

Wanted to show my progress, this map is without the circles again, but most everything else is there.

Click image to enlarge.

[oaktown]

For these early stages in development you might be better off without the background images. The waves are distracting, and the dragon makes it really hard to read the small map.

Overall your regions look really hard to hold - that'll make early rounds of a game frustrating. In at least two regions every territory is a border. Sado doesn't need to connect to Akita, and you could reposition lines/mountains around Chiba and Tochiga to make one of them a protected interior territory.

[GhostSniper15243]

Make the mini map less detailed and lose the waves. As far as the actual map goes it's pretty good, maybe some more territories would be nice. Also I think there are too many mountains, but that's just me.

[sailorc]

I agree with oaktown. The waves are more noticeable than the map. They should be toned down or removed for now. Also, it's difficult to see the bonuses map with the dragon behind it.

(sorry if this double posted)

[captainwalrus]

This seems sort of fuzzy for some reason. I think some of the boarders could be sharpened. The attack line from Nagasaki to tsushima is unnecessarily curved. I see no reason for it not to be straight. Same thing with a few others, if it doesn't need to curve, don't make it so curvy.

[DublinDoogey]

For gameplay--and because of space--it might be better to only use the mountains to separate bonus regions. There are a few places where they separate countries within a single bonus which doesn't really do more than take up space and allow for the regions to be very difficult to hold. Perhaps you could take advantage of the natural linearity of the country to use the mountains in a way that makes the sea routes very very important. That way you could simply start at one end and march through but then someone would be able to swing around via the ocean and disrupt your bonuses.

For graphics (when you get there), if you like the dragon it might be a good idea to take your colors and such from it. Some of the subdued maps are the easiest to read and are nice to look at (i'm thinking middle east in particular). Also, there are a lot of good prints and such from Japan's art traditions that are much nicer than the background that could maybe be used. I'd look through museum websites and find something nice and simple.

You've got a good start, I think taking it down to a lower country count was a great idea. Good luck!

[RedBaron0]

Click image to enlarge.

Alright, I've deleted a few connections and straightened the lines. There is at least 1 non-border territory in each bonus region. I've toned down the bonus colors which now gives a more subtle look. And for now at least all graphical frills have been removed, for now, with earlier versions though, I hope that you can see what I'll be aiming for when the focus turns to the graphical. Only graphical highlight, which is more noticeable now without the other backgrounds is a blend from northwest to southeast on the blue background. Perhaps the dark blue on the background made and graphical background more annoying, perhaps a lighter blue behind the graphical background, or a sea-green color might be more suitable?

Mountains are little smaller and on the slightly less numerous side. I did redraw the internal bonus boundaries, I think they're coming up a little pixelly now, so I gotta fine the balance between this and the blurry before version.

Looking at it now, Kanto has too many borders to be a 2 army bonus, it should be a 3, either I should bump that up, or have just one connection from Izu-Oshima to Chiba, but then I'm sliding back to the other problem of having too many dead end territories, which I count now at 3. On that same tangent, Hokkaido might be better suited to being a 2 than a 3 with only 2 border states.

Just to ask for a clarification, GhostSniper15243, when you say "too detailed" for the minimap, do you mean the dragon, or the actual outline of the minimap?

[GhostSniper15243]

I was referring to the dragon itself. After the change, I like it. I like the backround color. I think the small map should be moved a bit up, litterally. I think it's too close to the actual map. Also I was thinking Chugoku should get more than 3 bonuses. Holding 7 territores and defending other borders is hard. I also think Hokuriku should be bumped down to 4 bonuses. There's only 5 territories and 3 borders. I was also thinking for later development there should be anther small bonus, like holding Tokyo or something, just a suggestion. Overall this is a really good start. I'll be looking forward to seeing the next version.

[sailorc]

like u said, Kanto should have 3 bonus armies. other than that, I don't see much wrong with the bonuses. u should also add more graphics after gameplay is sorted out.

nice map.

[thenobodies80]

Not have a map of Japan is a real shame.
Good choice

i think you can find the best result for gameplay trying a mix between your map and the one oaktown posted.

show: oaktown version

Hokkaido,kanto,chugoku are good on your map.
But i think that oaktown version is more interesting about kiusu/sikok and nippon north
About sikok, space could be a real problem on your version....so i don't blame you if you will not try to have another bonus zone
Anyway i'm really happy if you can set your tohoku zone taking inspiration from oak's map...

looking forward to your next update

[GhostSniper15243]

I'm not trying to create drama here or anything, but I see nothing wrong with Kanto only having 2 bonus armies. There's only 4 territories and 3 borders. It shouldn't be that hard to hold. Also the mountains give it protection too. I think it only needs 2 bonus armies. That's just my opinion.

[Industrial Helix]

Looking good!

i think the bottle neck at Fukui and Ishikawa needs to go though. You could have a third of the map and only have to defend at one terr.

Shouldn't Okinawa be on this map? You've got all the other minor islands, leaving it out would seem a shame... you could fudge it as stick in over to the lower mid-right.

I like all the sea routes as well, I'd like to see little ship graphics or something as well.

I think the green in the mountains is doesn't fit well with the map, but that might be something to work on later as gameplay is the objective now.

[GhostSniper15243]

I agree. I think Okinawa should be in there.

[RedBaron0]

Click image to enlarge.

I believe I've hit everyone's concerns with the new version. Okinawa has been readded to the map, although it's true geographic position is a couple hundred miles south of Kyushu, I thought it was best to add it there to put in the 7th bonus region back on the map. In that area I've straightened the line showing the connections. I'm not necessarily liking the look, curved lines might have to return there, but I'll have to be sure they are subtle and connect at the same point so it looks like you can hope from one territory to the next, to the next, etc. This adds 2 territories to the total, so I eliminated Mie and merged it with Osaka. Osaka now also connects to Aichi so the southern third of the map isn't bottle necked at Fukui.

Bonuses:

2 - Kyushu - 4 territories, 2 borders
2 - Shikoku - 3 territories, 2 borders
2 - Kanto - 4 territories, 2 borders
3 - Chugoku - 6 territories, 3 borders
3 - Hokkaido - 5 territories, 2 borders
4 - Hokuriku - 5 territories, 4 borders
4 - Tohoku - 6 territories, 3 borders

Hmmmmm....... A couple bonuses seem to be off by an army up or down, since I changed a couple territories, added and subtracted, my thoughts might be: Hokkaido may have to goto 2, Tohoku should drop to 3, but I keep looking at it and it looks really tough to gain control of, so I'm not sure there. Chugoku seems right now now that it's down to 6 territories. When I guess at the bonus values I weight border territories higher than territory total, I put Kanto at 2 because I took out the extra border. Hold the 2 borders and reinforce just those 2, in most cases you're going to get 5 armies so you have to, in theory, leave one border a little weaker which allows for another player a chance to break that bonus. It makes sense in my mind, but I do need some sleep.

Oh I did raise the minimap up and shrunk the title for a better fit in the top corner. I readded the Kanji title. (It translates: Japan) I really would like to put that on the map somewhere as a graphical accent, but the current version is very boxy, and at some point I'd like a calligraphy-looking version and see how that works.

I haven't changed the mountains, yet, but I can change the mountains by either coloring the bonus regions in a similar way oaktown has in his version, or color them brown, gray, or a little bit of both and vary the shapes so they aren't so uniform. I can do that in more detail as once the placement is pretty much set.

[GhostSniper15243]

This is a good one. I like what you did. In my opinion I think Hokkaido should stay at 3 armies. One concern I had is Tohoku and Chugoku.I think they should have the same number of bonuses. It doesn't really matter if it's 3 or 4. I just think they're too similar in some ways to have them be different bonuses.They both have 6 territories and 3 borders. I like Kanto's bonus, but maybe you can consider only 3 for Hokuriku. Kyushu and Shikoku are good. Those are just suggestions. I like where the small map is and I like the symbols. I think when it comes graphic time you should try to ge that in there somewhere. Thanks for taking our suggestions.

[sailorc]

I'm not an expert at gameplay, so I'll only talk about graphics for now. I think the water should have some kind of texture, but not as bold as the beginning. the land itself could also use some texture, too

it's coming along nicely

[RedBaron0]

The last few comments have been more on the graphical side, so I've made a graphical overhaul:

Click image to enlarge.

Went with the suggestions I got adding texture to both land and sea, and added the Japanese style boat(called a "junk") near the longest sea connection. I changed the direction of the blend to mesh with the background "wave" pattern. I've updated the kanji "Japan" to a calligraphy looking one.

Couple of tweaks to the playing surface, I did change the bonus value of Tohoku to 3; the other bonuses are the same from the previous version. I added a couple of mountains to the center of the Tohoku bonus, those 4 territories had a 4 corners thing going on that bothered the hell out of me.

Future versions may include the following as I spitball ideas to myself...

1 more territory to Hokuriku to better justify the 4 bonus value, I'd think about putting the territory Gifu back on the map which is currently merged with Aichi. I could then think about merging a territory in Tohoku (probably Akita or Iwate to Aomori) to keep the territory count down. Of course this may change bonus structure and basic gameplay.

Lets see what you guys think...

[GhostSniper15243]

Nice graphical start. Very nice. Maybe shrink the symbols a little bit. Not much, just a tad.

[Industrial Helix]

Nice update.

I think the mountains could use a little desaturation.

I take it both Rishorito islands are the same unit. I kind of looks like one mainland terr attacks one island and another up by Hokkaido attacks another. I suppose it would becleared up once the numbers are in the game.

I'd suggest editing the dotted line between Sado and Ishikawa so that the space in the line is between the distance of the two places. Same for Oki island and Izu-Oshima.

I think it might be better if the logo Japan and the Japanese written Japan were closer together for a single logo.

The words that are over the lighter bit of the ocean are kind of hard to read, such as Abashiri.

Nagasaki and Kagoshima are a tad difficult to read.

I think you could enlarge the fort or change it on the bodies of water to make it stand out or appear different than the playable terrs.

Tokushima is slighly difficult to read... maybe if you added a drop shadow to the word they might stand out a little better. And where will the numbers fit on the Tokushima terr.?

Otherwise, great update.

[oaktown]

Hi again red,

In case folks aren't aware this map has been chosen to be a subject in our first Map Incubator, so hopefully you'll be seeing the same few faces pop in here weekly.

I'm glad you've removed some of the decorative elements for now - basics first. A good trick for making words and numbers more readable against a colored background is giving them a light outer glow or stroke that will contrast with the surrounding colors. Some of your territory names and region values are lost against the land, so a soft black glow will make them pop out.