Manual Initial Troop Placement

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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby Optimus Prime on Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:48 am

I have absolutely no qualms about playing a doubles game with unlimited fortifications. I think an important thing to remember is that we all know that some features work better with some settings and they don't work quite as well with others. It is that way with fog of war games, doubles, triples, quads, 1v1, and freestyle.

Just find what works for you and enjoy the game, then you won't have to be stressed out. I promise. :)

I know that lackattack has made tweaks to feature updates before after a few days have passed if he can see that there is some large problems. If he sees that is the case with this one I am sure he will address it accordingly, until then, I'm thrilled that in the past couple weeks we've had two new updates addressing things that the community has been clamoring about for a long time.

What will be next I wonder....
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby Nephilim on Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:50 am

dude, lack.....what kind of convoluted reasoning is that? isn't the point of this option to make CC more like the real game?

and who the hell plays the real game with some sort of weird fog option? no one, that's who.

why don't you just give us the option to play it how we want, rather than force this wacky fog thing on us? i won't be playing it
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby Optimus Prime on Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:53 am

lackattack wrote:
PJDH wrote:Well, I think I have a solution!!!
1. Decide the order of play as before which will be enforced in sequential games after the deployment!!

It already works that way for sequential, no? :-s

I think what he is asking for is an indication of who will be taking the first turn in a sequential game during the freestyle troop placement round. That way a player can at least make a small amount of anticipation in where he needs to protect...

I'm not sure if that fixes anything though, if you don't know where each player holds a territory. Perhaps it might be worthwhile to investigate the idea of keeping the "fog" during the deployment round, but instead of gray question marks use colored question marks so that while you cannot see how many troops have been deployed on that territory you can see where the other players have things.

Couple that with the ability to know who will be taking the first turn in a sequential game and you still have some mystery involved with not knowing actually deployment counts, but allow the players who are not taking the first turn a small measure of knowledge that should help prevent sweeping attacks by the first player to begin a turn.

Thoughts... just thoughts...
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby thebest712 on Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:56 am

it hardly seems fair that the last person that places also goes first (in 1vs1 freestyle games)
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby Optimus Prime on Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:56 am

Nephilim wrote:dude, lack.....what kind of convoluted reasoning is that? isn't the point of this option to make CC more like the real game?

I don't believe that it has ever been the intention to make Conquer Club identical to the real game. The intention is more to take some beloved features from the original game and add a new twist and dynamic to them to make Conquer Club unique.
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby JOHNNYROCKET24 on Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:57 am

lackattack wrote:For the longest time you have asked "why can't we decide where top put the armies?". Ask no more.

This popular suggestion is finally reality as a new game option, Initial Troops. It has 2 settings:

Automatic - the usual 3 armies :|

Manual - players decide where to place their armies in a blind freestyle round :D

See Instructions -> Game Options for more details.

As usual, thanks to everyone who suggested manual troop placement or provided feedback on the suggestions. Credit for this particular solution goes to c1arinetboy

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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby Bruceswar on Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:00 am

Optimus Prime wrote:
lackattack wrote:
PJDH wrote:Well, I think I have a solution!!!
1. Decide the order of play as before which will be enforced in sequential games after the deployment!!

It already works that way for sequential, no? :-s

I think what he is asking for is an indication of who will be taking the first turn in a sequential game during the freestyle troop placement round. That way a player can at least make a small amount of anticipation in where he needs to protect...

I'm not sure if that fixes anything though, if you don't know where each player holds a territory. Perhaps it might be worthwhile to investigate the idea of keeping the "fog" during the deployment round, but instead of gray question marks use colored question marks so that while you cannot see how many troops have been deployed on that territory you can see where the other players have things.

Couple that with the ability to know who will be taking the first turn in a sequential game and you still have some mystery involved with not knowing actually deployment counts, but allow the players who are not taking the first turn a small measure of knowledge that should help prevent sweeping attacks by the first player to begin a turn.

Thoughts... just thoughts...



That is how it is already you just see red or green ?'s(Whatever color player you are) But you have no clue who plays first or not. With the deployments I made to hopingly stop a bonus or take one myself, I was down 18 men before I started my turn. It was a 1 vs 1 seq he went first and took out basically all my men. I never had the slightest chance.
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby -Maximus- on Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:03 am

-Maximus- wrote:Whats wrong with sequential placement and no fog. Yes takes more rounds to even start the game, but would be the real "initial troop placement"
Could even make each map have a specific round limit to get all the troops deployed by forcing X amount of troops be placed per round.



Not a single comment on this? No one else would rather have sequential troop placement with no fog? Maybe I should have not put the "X" in my text...possibly confused everyone.
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby Hatchman on Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:05 am

Optimus Prime wrote:Keep in mind that it is poor strategy to just stack in one spot and hope to have the first turn. Lucky if it happens? Most definitely, but more often than not you are just going to shoot yourself in the foot with that strategy. ;)


Well whether you go first or not, think about this: You distribute your stacks all over the place while everyone else makes one big stack. When it's your turn, you don't stand a chance of survival. You'll be in everyone's way and they'll quickly push you aside.
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby lackattack on Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:10 am

Optimus Prime wrote:I'm not sure if that fixes anything though, if you don't know where each player holds a territory. Perhaps it might be worthwhile to investigate the idea of keeping the "fog" during the deployment round, but instead of gray question marks use colored question marks so that while you cannot see how many troops have been deployed on that territory you can see where the other players have things.


It already uses coloured questionmarks to show who has which regions :?

Nephilim wrote:dude, lack.....what kind of convoluted reasoning is that? isn't the point of this option to make CC more like the real game?

and who the hell plays the real game with some sort of weird fog option? no one, that's who.

why don't you just give us the option to play it how we want, rather than force this wacky fog thing on us? i won't be playing it


You have to take into account that this is a casual web game designed for people to play without being online at the same time. Say you take turns placing 3 troops when you play the Risk board game... that would take 14 days to accomplish if done sequentially on the Classic map (and we have much bigger maps than that). I don't think that people want to wait 2 weeks to begin a game! And so what if the Risk board game doesn't offer Fog of War? I think most people would consider having that option a big plus. Saying "this sucks" doesn't help anyone but I'm open to any suggestions that make sense with our casual web game model.
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby Queen_Herpes on Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:12 am

default on start game menu should be automatic. Manual deploy takes additional time.

There shouldn't be fog on the manual deploy, or there should be an option to fog on or off on manual deploy.

I just played my first with manual and won handily on turn one because I went first. We both deployed all of our troops next to each other. If there was no fog, it would have been a more interesting game as I wouldn't have deployed next to my opponent without knowing who would go first.

Great addition though.
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby 72o on Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:14 am

-Maximus- wrote:
-Maximus- wrote:Whats wrong with sequential placement and no fog. Yes takes more rounds to even start the game, but would be the real "initial troop placement"
Could even make each map have a specific round limit to get all the troops deployed by forcing X amount of troops be placed per round.



Not a single comment on this? No one else would rather have sequential troop placement with no fog? Maybe I should have not put the "X" in my text...possibly confused everyone.


I agree with this. That's what I would prefer. My suggestion for the deployment previously was to make it sequential placement to decide ownership of the territories, and then either open it up for freestyle deployment, or sequential deployment of multiple troops per round like your idea above.
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby Bruceswar on Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:19 am

lackattack wrote:
Optimus Prime wrote:I'm not sure if that fixes anything though, if you don't know where each player holds a territory. Perhaps it might be worthwhile to investigate the idea of keeping the "fog" during the deployment round, but instead of gray question marks use colored question marks so that while you cannot see how many troops have been deployed on that territory you can see where the other players have things.


It already uses coloured questionmarks to show who has which regions :?

Nephilim wrote:dude, lack.....what kind of convoluted reasoning is that? isn't the point of this option to make CC more like the real game?

and who the hell plays the real game with some sort of weird fog option? no one, that's who.

why don't you just give us the option to play it how we want, rather than force this wacky fog thing on us? i won't be playing it


You have to take into account that this is a casual web game designed for people to play without being online at the same time. Say you take turns placing 3 troops when you play the Risk board game... that would take 14 days to accomplish if done sequentially on the Classic map (and we have much bigger maps than that). I don't think that people want to wait 2 weeks to begin a game! And so what if the Risk board game doesn't offer Fog of War? I think most people would consider having that option a big plus. Saying "this sucks" doesn't help anyone but I'm open to any suggestions that make sense with our casual web game model.



I fully agree about 2 weeks, but the fog has to go if you ask me. I would at least like to know where his men will be so I do not waste my own men. Example A 6 man escalating game. You are dropped 2 spots in Aussie and some random low rank is dropped 1 spot. Since you only start with 6 total spots you wish to save those in Aussie. The random noob thinks great I will put all my men in Aussie and take the bonus! Woohoo! Now you have wasted 7 men in Aussie and are down. If we also knew who started the game we could better place our men.
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby Rassilon6 on Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:21 am

lackattack wrote:If you have Fog of War on, it will just add the full fog on top of the initial troops "blindness" of enemy army counts. To have no blindness at all would cause problems because one player's deployment would affect the next player's decision and the order of deployment would then have too much impact.


Well, in the original game [Ok, someone has already said that this isn't meant to be exactly like the original, but at least consider...], deployment is sequential, so one player's deployment is supposed to affect the next player's decision. If we really wanted it like the original, deployment would be sequential, and there would be no fog. However, that would only work properly if we were restricted to deploying one at a time, and that would take forever!

What about dividing deployment into 3 or 4 or 5 sequential rounds (no fog)? It wouldn't take as long, and we could still build using information about others' deployments.

To be honest, I don't even think that's a very good suggestion! But I'll throw it out there for brainstorming; maybe this will trigger a better idea in someone else.

But while I may not hold use the Manual option very much myself, I wouldnt' suggest getting rid of it by any means. Everyone knows the rules of the particular game they are joining; if some choose to play by that rule, then it's good for them. And maybe a few days of playing it isn't enough to stumble upon a better strategy for it; keep exploring and trying out the Manual.

....and tell me how it goes, because I'll probably try it once and quit. :)
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby lackattack on Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:23 am

Queen_Herpes wrote:default on start game menu should be automatic. Manual deploy takes additional time.


Automatic is already default.

Queen_Herpes wrote:There shouldn't be fog on the manual deploy, or there should be an option to fog on or off on manual deploy.


I think showing the army counts in a freestyle initial deployment round would cause more problems than it would solve.
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby luapie on Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:28 am

FFS LAGATTACK DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE SPEED OF THE SERVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby luapie on Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:32 am

Always a new tool, but upgrading the server.... no it will cost me to much bucks and i wannah have money money money. I paid for a product which has been changed, so i'll get my money back??
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby lackattack on Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:45 am

luapie wrote:Always a new tool, but upgrading the server.... no it will cost me to much bucks and i wannah have money money money. I paid for a product which has been changed, so i'll get my money back??


I monitor processing times and they look rather good. It sounds like there could be a problem on your end, and this is not the place to discuss that. Please submit a support ticket or ask around in the forum for advice.
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby Kotaro on Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:50 am

I didn't know how to express my feelings quite when I first saw this, but I've figured it out.

Boo. If there's ever a medal for it, I'll play it, but otherwise, Boo.
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby AndrewB on Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:53 am

lackattack wrote:Manual - players decide where to place their armies in a blind freestyle round


I smell so much more farming!
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby PLAYER57832 on Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:54 am

Seems like Conquest maps might need a tweak?
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby slowreactor on Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:09 am

wow... so much negativity for this...

again, the initial round should match the game, seq for seq, fs for fs, and all double-turn rules apply.
Also, the heavy fog should really be lifted. For fog games, regular fog rules should apply for fog games, and it should be clear for sunny games.
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby Theoharis on Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:14 am

Well, manual placement is certainly an interesting tweak, that with time and discussion will develop into something balanced. Now it just started, so it's bound to have some faults that will be discovered and dealt with in time.

-Maximus- wrote:Whats wrong with sequential placement and no fog. Yes takes more rounds to even start the game, but would be the real "initial troop placement" Could even make each map have a specific round limit to get all the troops deployed by forcing X amount of troops be placed per round.


I agree that this is perhaps the best way to go, but I can see it working only in speed games, otherwise it would take ages. With stacks of, say, 3 troops deployed each round. And definitely with no fog.
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby Tzar Reginald on Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:29 am

Rassilon6 wrote:
Well, in the original game [Ok, someone has already said that this isn't meant to be exactly like the original, but at least consider...], deployment is sequential, so one player's deployment is supposed to affect the next player's decision. If we really wanted it like the original, deployment would be sequential, and there would be no fog. However, that would only work properly if we were restricted to deploying one at a time, and that would take forever!



Congrats Rassie!!! Excellent observation and avatar - I love Doctor Who.

Might a move toward sequential territory selection (ie. not by cards, otherwise known as random fixation to territories) before sequential deployment be the next lunge for the insatiable drive of CC?!?!

CC has come a long way from its beginnings of mimicing the board game RISK. No offense Optimus, but when one of the original maps was "Classic" and it exactly resembled the RISK board down to borders and territory names, yea, its original attempt was to be an online version of RISK. However, it has evolved into its present form based around the concept of RISK; it has adapted to the expanse and constraint of online communities, both continuously active and the day-to-day wayfarer.

I herald what was said before -play it if you like, if not, let others enjoy their twisted world.

Be the best CC you can be.

-Reginald Out
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Re: Manual Initial Troop Placement

Postby reptile on Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:35 am

not a fan of this ideah
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