Salem's Switch V36 [Quenched]

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Re: Salem's Switch (V3) (P3) Re-design

Postby cairnswk on Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:53 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:
cairnswk wrote:I you refresh, you'll see an extra 8 starting positions that have nothing to do with the 'cussers or the 'cussed...to balance the map.


Are these going to each be attached to one of the original starting positions or will they all be put into a common pool? Or will there be two pools, one for the accusers/accused and one for the rest?


I don't think one can differentiate the starting positions in the xml apart from like was done for Das Schloß....
Code: Select all
<!-- Start positions -->
<positions>
   <position> <!-- Start player 1-->
      <territory>Philby</territory>
      <territory>K1</territory>
      <territory>Obl. Hans</territory>
      <territory>Soldatenschlafzimmer C</territory>
   </position>
   <position> <!-- Start player 2-->
      <territory>Jones</territory>
      <territory>K2</territory>
      <territory>Hpt. Karl</territory>
      <territory>Soldatenschlafzimmer B</territory>
   </position>
   <position> <!-- Start player 3-->
      <territory>Smith</territory>
      <territory>K3</territory>
      <territory>Sdt. Gus</territory>
      <territory>Soldatenschlafzimmer A</territory>
   </position>

...so it will have to be done in a similar manner i guess to Das Schloß, although i'd have to check if it can polled in one group so that the drop is completely random. :?:
Duh! Me. :oops: Of crouse the random drop is done by coding everything else neutral. Duh :oops:
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Re: Salem's Switch (V3)

Postby cairnswk on Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:55 pm

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Re: Salem's Switch (V3) (P3) Re-design

Postby Evil DIMwit on Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:21 pm

cairnswk wrote:Duh! Me. :oops: Of crouse the random drop is done by coding everything else neutral. Duh :oops:


Well, you can take advantage of that and code them like

Code: Select all
<!-- Territories -->
<territory>
   <name>William Shaw</name>
   ...
   <neutral>3</neutral>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Joseph Buxton</name>
   ...
   <neutral>3</neutral>
</territory>
<!-- ...and so forth for every green SP-->

<!-- Start positions -->
<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>William Shaw<territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Joseph Buxton</territory>
   </position>
   <!-- ...and so forth for every green SP-->


Then you leave the accuser/accused starting position non-neutral, but undesignated in starting positions. That way, the greens are evenly divided and the pinks are divided separately.
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Re: Salem's Switch (V3) (P3) Re-design

Postby cairnswk on Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:28 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:....
Then you leave the accuser/accused starting position non-neutral, but undesignated in starting positions. That way, the greens are evenly divided and the pinks are divided separately.

Huh?
Did you do that correctly? I'm not sure what you mean by having them coded as a pooled starting position but then having them coded as neutral.
EDIT: please forgive my typing this morning..
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Re: Salem's Switch (V3) (P3) Re-design

Postby Evil DIMwit on Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:03 pm

cairnswk wrote:
Evil DIMwit wrote:....
Then you leave the accuser/accused starting position non-neutral, but undesignated in starting positions. That way, the greens are evenly divided and the pinks are divided separately.

Huh?
Did you do that correctly? I'm not sure what you mean by having them coded as a pooled starting position but then having them coded as neutral.
EDIT: please forgive my typing this morning..


Well (unless I'm sorely mistaken), what happens is that being in a Starting Position overrides the starting neutral value, but only if the starting position is assigned. The engine looks at the starting positions first and divides them equally among the players; it doesn't look at coded neutral values until it's done with SPs.

So, for example, say you wanted to change the Egypt: Lower map around so that each player gets an equal portion of the 5 capital territories, but the rest of the map is randomly assigned as usual. You'd code the capitals as neutral in their territory descriptions, but then set them all to be a pool of starting positions.

In a 2-player game, that's 2 capitals for each player with 1 left over (the 'neutral player' isn't assigned anything at this point); in a 3-player game that's 1 for each player and 2 left over. Say in a 3-player Egypt: Lower game, A-bt, Kha, and Ament are each given to one player. Khaset and Aneb-Hetch are left over so they get pooled in with the regular territries. However, because they're coded to have a neutral value, they're immediately set to neutral. The game begins with each player having one of the five capital territories, and the two left-over capitals starting as neutral.

I believe this mechanism is in use in Third Crusade right now, and it's kind of integral to the proposed XML scheme of Good Morning Woodboro.
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Re: Salem's Switch (V3) (P3) Re-design

Postby natty dread on Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:05 pm

I like the new arrangement of territories. It's a lot better than the old one...

The roads as killer neutrals is a nice idea. I would suggest not making them spawn too many neutrals though. Something like 2, 3 at maximum. Otherwise it's going to be too hard to get around...
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Re: Salem's Switch (V3) (P3) Re-design

Postby cairnswk on Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:27 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
Evil DIMwit wrote:....
Then you leave the accuser/accused starting position non-neutral, but undesignated in starting positions. That way, the greens are evenly divided and the pinks are divided separately.

Huh?
Did you do that correctly? I'm not sure what you mean by having them coded as a pooled starting position but then having them coded as neutral.
EDIT: please forgive my typing this morning..


Well (unless I'm sorely mistaken), what happens is that being in a Starting Position overrides the starting neutral value, but only if the starting position is assigned. The engine looks at the starting positions first and divides them equally among the players; it doesn't look at coded neutral values until it's done with SPs.

So, for example, say you wanted to change the Egypt: Lower map around so that each player gets an equal portion of the 5 capital territories, but the rest of the map is randomly assigned as usual. You'd code the capitals as neutral in their territory descriptions, but then set them all to be a pool of starting positions.

In a 2-player game, that's 2 capitals for each player with 1 left over (the 'neutral player' isn't assigned anything at this point); in a 3-player game that's 1 for each player and 2 left over. Say in a 3-player Egypt: Lower game, A-bt, Kha, and Ament are each given to one player. Khaset and Aneb-Hetch are left over so they get pooled in with the regular territries. However, because they're coded to have a neutral value, they're immediately set to neutral. The game begins with each player having one of the five capital territories, and the two left-over capitals starting as neutral.

I believe this mechanism is in use in Third Crusade right now, and it's kind of integral to the proposed XML scheme of Good Morning Woodboro.


Ah! Now in understand. Sorry Evil, but i wasn't aware of the coding, but yes, that would be a super idea. :)
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Re: Salem's Switch (V3) (P3) Re-design

Postby cairnswk on Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:28 pm

natty_dread wrote:I like the new arrangement of territories. It's a lot better than the old one...

Kewl :)

The roads as killer neutrals is a nice idea. I would suggest not making them spawn too many neutrals though. Something like 2, 3 at maximum. Otherwise it's going to be too hard to get around...


I was thinking on [1] to make it easy to move around....if not [2] at max. :)
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Re: Salem's Switch (V3) (P3) Re-design

Postby Evil DIMwit on Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:51 pm

cairnswk wrote:
natty_dread wrote:I like the new arrangement of territories. It's a lot better than the old one...

Kewl :)

The roads as killer neutrals is a nice idea. I would suggest not making them spawn too many neutrals though. Something like 2, 3 at maximum. Otherwise it's going to be too hard to get around...


I was thinking on [1] to make it easy to move around....if not [2] at max. :)


If it's more than that, it's not much of a road. [2] would easily get irritating, especially early on in the game.
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Re: Salem's Switch (V3) (P3) Re-design

Postby isaiah40 on Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:59 pm

natty_dread wrote:I like the new arrangement of territories. It's a lot better than the old one...

The roads as killer neutrals is a nice idea. I would suggest not making them spawn too many neutrals though. Something like 2, 3 at maximum. Otherwise it's going to be too hard to get around...


Definitely a better layout Cairns! Now there is no confusion about where the inset territories attack to and from!!
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Re: Salem's Switch (V3) (P3) Re-design

Postby cairnswk on Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:09 pm

Evil DIMwit wrote:....
If it's more than that, it's not much of a road. [2] would easily get irritating, especially early on in the game.

I agree, and that's probably the time in the game when it needs to be least irritating. From that, can we agree on [1] (unless i am reading it incorrectly).


isaiah40 wrote:...
Definitely a better layout Cairns! Now there is no confusion about where the inset territories attack to and from!!

Good.
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Re: Salem's Switch (V3) (P3) Re-design

Postby ender516 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:49 am

The discussion earlier about the starting positions was a little unclear to me, so I will just state my position on it. Forgive me if I am merely restating what was already said, but think of it as support for the idea. If I am taking a different position, then consider it a counter-proposal. :D
I think it would be better to code the starting positions as eight pairs of territories, with each pair containing one territory that is part of a bonus (accused or accuser) and one other territory. This prevents random distribution of the starts from giving any one player more of the bonus territories than any other player. Proper pairing of the territories can also minimize any bunching which might give one player a head start in the quest for a stronghold.
Code: Select all
<positions>
  <position>
    <territory>Ann Putnam Jr</territory>
    <territory>Prison</territory>
  </position>
  <position>
    <territory>Susannah Martin</territory>
    <territory>Thomas Beadle</territory>
  </position>
<!-- et cetera -->
</positions>
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Re: Salem's Switch (V3) (P3) Re-design

Postby cairnswk on Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:16 am

ender516 wrote:The discussion earlier about the starting positions was a little unclear to me, so I will just state my position on it. Forgive me if I am merely restating what was already said, but think of it as support for the idea. If I am taking a different position, then consider it a counter-proposal. :D
I think it would be better to code the starting positions as eight pairs of territories, with each pair containing one territory that is part of a bonus (accused or accuser) and one other territory. This prevents random distribution of the starts from giving any one player more of the bonus territories than any other player. Proper pairing of the territories can also minimize any bunching which might give one player a head start in the quest for a stronghold.
Code: Select all
<positions>
  <position>
    <territory>Ann Putnam Jr</territory>
    <territory>Prison</territory>
  </position>
  <position>
    <territory>Susannah Martin</territory>
    <territory>Thomas Beadle</territory>
  </position>
<!-- et cetera -->
</positions>

Thanks ender516 for that proposal.
With that however, and i could be wrong with my thinking on this, giving a player the same starting territories each time makes the game somewhat determinable after several games so that players may learn the ways to win.
The theory i guess would be to have two separate sets of starts so that each drop can be randomised to increase the odds of a player gaining the same starting positions less often. Did i explain that OK? :)
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Re: Salem's Switch (V3) (P3) Re-design

Postby ender516 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:07 am

cairnswk wrote:
ender516 wrote:The discussion earlier about the starting positions was a little unclear to me, so I will just state my position on it. Forgive me if I am merely restating what was already said, but think of it as support for the idea. If I am taking a different position, then consider it a counter-proposal. :D
I think it would be better to code the starting positions as eight pairs of territories, with each pair containing one territory that is part of a bonus (accused or accuser) and one other territory. This prevents random distribution of the starts from giving any one player more of the bonus territories than any other player. Proper pairing of the territories can also minimize any bunching which might give one player a head start in the quest for a stronghold.
Code: Select all
<positions>
  <position>
    <territory>Ann Putnam Jr</territory>
    <territory>Prison</territory>
  </position>
  <position>
    <territory>Susannah Martin</territory>
    <territory>Thomas Beadle</territory>
  </position>
<!-- et cetera -->
</positions>

Thanks ender516 for that proposal.
With that however, and i could be wrong with my thinking on this, giving a player the same starting territories each time makes the game somewhat determinable after several games so that players may learn the ways to win.
The theory i guess would be to have two separate sets of starts so that each drop can be randomised to increase the odds of a player gaining the same starting positions less often. Did i explain that OK? :)

Well, I'm not sure how you think a player will get the same set of starting territories each time. Using my scheme, in an 8-player singles game, each player would get one pair of starting territories, but it is randomized, so you would need to learn the best strategy from each starting pair. So in one game, player 1 might get Susannah and Thomas, and in another he might get Ann and the Prison. In a 1v1 game, each player gets four pairs picked randomly from the eight. (The "neutral player" does not take a one-third share of the starting positions, unlike the way ordinary territories (and leftover starting territories which have not been coded as neutral starts) are divided in a 1v1 game.)

Hmm, after rereading the earlier posts and thinking a bit, I think I finally understand what you and Evil DIMwit were driving at:
  • define only the newly added green territories as starting positions with an underlying neutral coding, so that they are always divided evenly, with leftovers becoming neutral
  • define the other starting territories (the original 8 accusers and accused) as normal territories and everything else as neutrals, so that those eight are again divided evenly among the players with all leftovers becoming neutrals
This gives a drop scheme similar to my proposal, but with the pairings randomized, which has the advantage of more variety in the starting positions, but lacks the ability to set pairings which help balance out problems like Ann Putnam Jr's being trapped at one end of the map.
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Re: Salem's Switch (V3) (P3) Re-design

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:31 am

[ Moved ] into the drafting room.

Give every man your ear, but few thy voice. Take each man's censure, but reserve thy judgment.
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