Salem's Switch V36 [Quenched]

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Re: Salem's Switch (V3) (P3) Re-design

Postby thenobodies80 on Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:31 am

Click image to enlarge.
image
Map for the new page

Interesting idea...I think you can bring out a good map.
Some comments after a quick look:

Hanged-Hill-Judge-Prison bonus is not clear :?
Not to mention that it took me hours to find all the judges and the prison ;) , I see a region with this name: Judge Crowin, but it isn't a part of the Judges bonus. This region is good for the hanged,hill,etc bonus? Is it good for the judge bonus?
Hill could be coloured with the bonus color instead of the accused (title) color, but it's just a personal preference.

Colors, I got these results using Vischeck (colorblind simulation)
show: results

I think that some colors/bonus are hard to distinguish

one last thing, the legend that explains how roads work in the left corner, i think it will look better and clearer in this way:
Image

Looking forward your next update ;)
Nobodies

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Re: Salem's Switch (V3) (P3) Re-design

Postby cairnswk on Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:00 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:Map for the new page

Interesting idea...I think you can bring out a good map.
Some comments after a quick look:

Hanged-Hill-Judge-Prison bonus is not clear :?
Not to mention that it took me hours to find all the judges and the prison ;) , I see a region with this name: Judge Crowin, but it isn't a part of the Judges bonus. This region is good for the hanged,hill,etc bonus? Is it good for the judge bonus?
Hill could be coloured with the bonus color instead of the accused (title) color, but it's just a personal preference.

Colors, I got these results using Vischeck (colorblind simulation)
show: results

I think that some colors/bonus are hard to distinguish

one last thing, the legend that explains how roads work in the left corner, i think it will look better and clearer in this way:
Image

Looking forward your next update ;)
Nobodies


thenobodies80. thanks for move...
1. fixed the road legend as per your request.
2. jiggied around with the colours...and put this new set of colours thru visicheck.
3. also reomved the starters from the township to the country to make it fairer for all players.

Image

Image
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Re: Salem's Switch (V4) (P5) CB Stuff

Postby cairnswk on Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:56 pm

So from the discussion over in theXML Starting Positions thread....

Evil DIMwit wrote:What I proposed was something like

Code: Select all
<!-- Territories -->
<territory>
   <name>William Shaw</name>
   ...
   <neutral>3</neutral>
</territory>
<territory>
   <name>Joseph Buxton</name>
   ...
   <neutral>3</neutral>
</territory>
<!-- ...and so forth for every green SP-->

<!-- Start positions -->
<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>William Shaw<territory>
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Joseph Buxton</territory>
   </position>
   <!-- ...and so forth for every green SP-->


But only for the green starting positions. The bonus starting positions are the only other territories left non-neutral, but they're not designated as starting positions. What would happen (if I understand correctly) is that the Starting Positions tag overrides the initial neutral coding of the green territories, so those are divided evenly, with the remainder being turned neutral. Then the eight remaining, bonus, starting positions are all that's left, and those get divided evenly, with any remainder becoming neutral.

You could switch it around and make the eight bonus SPs coded and the eight green positions uncoded. There's not much difference except that in 2-player game for the coded octet each player gets 4, and for the uncoded octet the "neutral player" gets taken into account, so each actual player gets 2.


oaktown wrote:maybe I'm not reading you right, but it sound like you want each players to have an equal number of territories from group A (Accused/accusers) and an equal number from group L (Landowners) - and for every A that a player has he also has a L. And you want them to be assigned at random. And i assume you want it to work for 2-8 players. That's a lot to ask from a very limited XML feature.

44's solution of coding pairs is close and will work for some game sizes. In a five player game (for example) each player will get one pair, but then I believe that the remaining six territories will be distributed randomly, each player receiving one extra territory. In a two or three player game each player would also get one odd, unpaired territory. And the A-L pairs would be pre-set, not random as you wish.

Another imperfect solution would be to code each A territory as a start, so you have eight starts of one territory each. Those eight would be distributed first, so everybody will get at least one A. The A's that are left over would be thrown into the mix with the L's, which would also be distributed at random. Unlike 44's idea the territories are distributed randomly, but there is a chance that somebody won't get an L territory. (Like 44's solution it will work perfectly for 4, 6, 7, and 8 player games, but everything else will be off.)

Evil DIMwit's idea of coding territories both neutral and as starting positions would eliminate this problem in that the left-over coded territories would go neutral, not back into the random mix, but I'm skeptical that the site will recognize both... I'd call in yeti before trying that out, but if it works it is the way to go.


thenobodies80 wrote:If you want them totally random but evenly splitted by group among the players, is not possible because each region can't be used for more than one single SP.
With the 44 system you will have the two groups splitted equally and i think that adding the underlying neutrals you can use them with all game size.
But they are NOT random.
The player with Accuser A will have always Landowner A, the player with Accuser B will have always Landowner B, etc etc...


MrBenn wrote:To answer some of the questions that have been raised:
Yes, territories can be coded start positions, and as neutral. The start position takes precedence, and so if not allocated with other starts will revert to neutral. The number of armies (player or neutral) doesn't have to be the same in the coding for the starting position/neutral tags.
In manual deployment games, coded starting positions will start with the number of armies specified in the code. I thought you could drop more armies on them during the deployment phase though...

Oh, I'll merge this with the other XML Start Positions Topic ;-)


yeti_c wrote:
the.killing.44 wrote:
Evil DIMwit wrote:Also, slightly related question while we're here -- if you've coded an initial troop number for a starting position, how is that handled in a manual deployment game? Can you redistribute those troops, or are they locked in place? How about if you haven't coded an initial troop number?

Have you ever played City Mogul manual? You can't drop armies on a starting position that has a starting value.


Wait a minute... if that were the case then City Mogul would be unplayable in manual - because you only get starting positions...

I agree with Benny here - although I haven't witnessed it.

C.


MrBenn wrote:Right, so in Manual deployment games, starting positions (with coded starting armies) are not 'overridden' in the same way as the standard 3 from normal territories. Where deployments are able to made, these can be made on any available territory.


Evil DIMwit wrote:...

Well, that makes sense if every territory has a fixed initial number -- not that you can't deploy manually to them, but that in manual you only get troops from non-fixed territories. In City Mogul there is nowhere to take troops from.

Third Crusade is a better example, since that mixes coded SP and non-coded territories. Indeed, here's a composite screencap of a manual Third Crusade game right after the deployment turn:
{refer to map}
Every starting position except Cairo has been deployed to with no incident.


I think i got everything in there....but i will be closely examing the Third Crusade map xml.
Code: Select all
<!-- Positions begin-->

<positions>

<position>
<territory start="6">London</territory>
</position>

<position>
<territory start="6">Paris</territory>
</position>

<position>
<territory start="6">Ratisbon</territory>
</position>

<position>
<territory start="6">Castile</territory>
</position>

<position>
<territory start="6">Thessalonica</territory>
</position>

<position>
<territory start="6">Tunis</territory>
</position>

<position>
<territory start="6">Cairo</territory>
</position>

<position>
<territory start="6">Amasia</territory>
</position>
</positions>
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Re: Salem's Switch (V4) (P5) CB Stuff

Postby cairnswk on Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:32 pm

So is anyone interested in continuing feedback for this map???
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Re: Salem's Switch (V4) (P5) CB Stuff

Postby ender516 on Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:31 pm

cairnswk wrote:So is anyone interested in continuing feedback for this map???

I think this is a fine map, but if you are trying to pull back to meet the two map limit, it makes sense to put this on vacation while your other more advanced maps move forward. The question is whether the Boys In Blue will allow it to resume without a substantial update when you want to move forward again. It would be nice to get them to mark this "on vacation without prejudice" so it can simply be restored to active status when there is room on your drafting table.
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Re: Salem's Switch (V4) (P5) CB Stuff

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:09 am

ender516 wrote:
cairnswk wrote:So is anyone interested in continuing feedback for this map???

I think this is a fine map, but if you are trying to pull back to meet the two map limit, it makes sense to put this on vacation while your other more advanced maps move forward. The question is whether the Boys In Blue will allow it to resume without a substantial update when you want to move forward again. It would be nice to get them to mark this "on vacation without prejudice" so it can simply be restored to active status when there is room on your drafting table.


thanks for that ender516, yes i was actually interested in finding out if anyone considered this a worthwhile project before i proceed any further since there hasn't been comment for some time.
I forgot already about the two project limit.... :oops:
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Re: Salem's Switch (V4) (P5) Continuation???

Postby natty dread on Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:08 am

Frankly, I would rather see Cricket vacationed than this, but that's just my opinion... Since I grew up as that kid who'd listen to heavy metal and read comics rather than go out and do sports, I think it's obvious I like witches more than cricket :D
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Re: Salem's Switch (V4) (P5) Continuation???

Postby ender516 on Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:06 pm

By the way, if you are still looking for a new name for Road Progression Points, why not Coach Stops? Then your legend could read:

Road Travel
  • Coach Stops are killer neutrals.
  • Roads connect Coach Stops but isolate other territories.
  • The road system is accessed only via Coach Stops by the lands that adjoin them.
    or (alternate wording)
  • The road system is accessible only to lands which adjoin Coach Stops.

You could call them Buggy Stops, but then you have to write Buggy XML, and no one wants that. ;)
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Re: Salem's Switch (V4) (P5) Continuation???

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:21 pm

natty_dread wrote:Frankly, I would rather see Cricket vacationed than this, but that's just my opinion... Since I grew up as that kid who'd listen to heavy metal and read comics rather than go out and do sports, I think it's obvious I like witches more than cricket :D

Sorry natty, but you know that's not going to happen since it is a sports map. ;)
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Re: Salem's Switch (V4) (P5) Continuation???

Postby cairnswk on Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:22 pm

ender516 wrote:By the way, if you are still looking for a new name for Road Progression Points, why not Coach Stops? Then your legend could read:

Road Travel
  • Coach Stops are killer neutrals.
  • Roads connect Coach Stops but isolate other territories.
  • The road system is accessed only via Coach Stops by the lands that adjoin them.
    or (alternate wording)
  • The road system is accessible only to lands which adjoin Coach Stops.

You could call them Buggy Stops, but then you have to write Buggy XML, and no one wants that. ;)


Great suggestions, thanks, i'll get onto it this weekend. :)
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Re: Salem's Switch (V4) (P5) Continuation???

Postby MrBenn on Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:44 pm

At first glance this map hits me in the face with "I don't have time to get my head around it". Further inspection (and the discussion about starting positions) gives me some initial concerns about getting balanced gameplay that works with the accused/accusers concept. :-k
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Re: Salem's Switch (V4) (P5) Gameplay??

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:35 pm

MrBenn wrote:At first glance this map hits me in the face with "I don't have time to get my head around it".

Yes, that would be par for course for most of my maps, wouldn't it?

Further inspection (and the discussion about starting positions) gives me some initial concerns about getting balanced gameplay that works with the accused/accusers concept. :-k

i'm pleased to see you at least gove a further inspection opportunity. I am working on that balance aspect, although because of the historical aspect, i am reluctant to move away from the "historical starts".

So gameplay and balance are on the agenda... :)
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Re: Salem's Switch (V5) (P5) Buggy Stops

Postby cairnswk on Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:27 pm

VERsion 5 changes the Road Progression Points to Buggy Stops with artwork.

Image
Last edited by cairnswk on Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Salem's Switch (V4) (P5) Gameplay??

Postby neanderpaul14 on Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:06 pm

cairnswk wrote:
MrBenn wrote:At first glance this map hits me in the face with "I don't have time to get my head around it".

Yes, that would be par for course for most of my maps, wouldn't it?




:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I love your maps Cairns, but yeah when I first look at most of them I usually scratch my head and mumble WTF.
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Re: Salem's Switch (V5) (P5) Buggy Stops

Postby MrBenn on Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:26 pm

Having spoken with Cairns about this idea, and in view of the restriction on the number of maps in development, we've agreed that this draft will remain in the Melting Pot, and that work will focus on his other projects in development for the time being.
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