[Online] Map XML Wizard

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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby Evil DIMwit on Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:22 am

yeti_c wrote:Something like that - although I think we force to 3 digits rather than 4 (except for CC City Mogul (where we forced to 4 because of the numbers involved))


In a build-up game it's not hard to get over 100 on any map. Combine that with the color code and you get an easy 4 (admittedly, once you're in 3-digit territory, the last digit isn't very significant but it's important to know that the last digit is there).
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby yeti_c on Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:43 am

Evil DIMwit wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Something like that - although I think we force to 3 digits rather than 4 (except for CC City Mogul (where we forced to 4 because of the numbers involved))


In a build-up game it's not hard to get over 100 on any map. Combine that with the color code and you get an easy 4 (admittedly, once you're in 3-digit territory, the last digit isn't very significant but it's important to know that the last digit is there).


Whilst I appreciate that - the limits that the foundry holds is to 3 digits...

So - 3 digits should be an error (i.e. you can't proceed with this map)
4 digits could be a warning...

Here's another error though...
Error: Territory X Co-ordinates are too close to the edge of the map.
(i.e. that with 3 digits the army number falls off the map)
Error: Territory X Co-ordinates are off the edge of the map.
(i.e. the army number isn't visible as it is outside the map size)
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby natty dread on Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:01 am

Here's a suggestion: implement an automatic bonus calculator, that uses the formula in one of the spreadsheet ones to calculate bonuses for the continents...

Not something that needs to be done ASAP, but it would be a nice detail...
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby Evil DIMwit on Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:48 am

natty_dread wrote:Here's a suggestion: implement an automatic bonus calculator, that uses the formula in one of the spreadsheet ones to calculate bonuses for the continents...

Not something that needs to be done ASAP, but it would be a nice detail...


On the other hand, bonus assignment is fairly context-sensitive and the spreadsheets are always more like recommendations. Ideally this tool would get used after all the squabbling over gameplay specifics is done with.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby natty dread on Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:14 am

Evil DIMwit wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Here's a suggestion: implement an automatic bonus calculator, that uses the formula in one of the spreadsheet ones to calculate bonuses for the continents...

Not something that needs to be done ASAP, but it would be a nice detail...


On the other hand, bonus assignment is fairly context-sensitive and the spreadsheets are always more like recommendations. Ideally this tool would get used after all the squabbling over gameplay specifics is done with.


Yeah, but it would be a nice addition to the tool. They can always be adjusted by hand later on. And it would make deciding bonuses easier, as you wouldn't have to count territories and borders and whatnot for the spreadsheets, but the program would do it for you.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby chipv on Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:15 am

I have added the errors for Territory with killer neutral+bonus and Territory border+bombarding same territory.

I've modified the head post to explicitly say what the Wizard actually does when it encounters warnings and errors on validation.
(Auto correction)

Please can some of you take a look to see if it looks sensible.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby yeti_c on Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:21 am

Here's what I think...

chipv wrote:
  • Error: Territory X has mutiple entries
    Action: Duplicate instances of Territory X are removed.
    Suggested action: Duplicates are renamed X(x++) (i.e. "X(1)", "X(2)")
  • Error: Position X has component Y which does not exist as a territory
    Action: Position X is removed from positions list.
    Suggested action: Component Y is removed from position X.
  • Error: Mutiple positions contain component X
    Action: Duplicate instances of positions with Component X are removed from positions list.
    Suggested action: None


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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby chipv on Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:12 am

yeti_c wrote:Here's what I think...

chipv wrote:
  • Error: Territory X has mutiple entries
    Action: Duplicate instances of Territory X are removed.
    Suggested action: Duplicates are renamed X(x++) (i.e. "X(1)", "X(2)")
  • Error: Position X has component Y which does not exist as a territory
    Action: Position X is removed from positions list.
    Suggested action: Component Y is removed from position X.
  • Error: Mutiple positions contain component X
    Action: Duplicate instances of positions with Component X are removed from positions list.
    Suggested action: None


C.


I'm not sure about the suggested action for 'Territory X has multiple entries' because that would then create territories that
are not contained within the same continent , for which there are no warnings or errors. If X is contained within a objective
or any territory list containing X then you would have a similar dilemma because X(x) won't be.

Something like this could be a genuine mistake or maybe a result of the XML being generated.

That XML would now subsequently be valid (probably with one-way warnings for new territories X(x)) whereas perhaps it should flag some warning.
A corrected XML shouldn't produce any additional warnings.

Agreed with suggested actions on positions. (Can positions contain continents btw - the tutorial implies territories?)
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby yeti_c on Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:23 am

chipv wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Here's what I think...

chipv wrote:
  • Error: Territory X has mutiple entries
    Action: Duplicate instances of Territory X are removed.
    Suggested action: Duplicates are renamed X(x++) (i.e. "X(1)", "X(2)")
  • Error: Position X has component Y which does not exist as a territory
    Action: Position X is removed from positions list.
    Suggested action: Component Y is removed from position X.
  • Error: Mutiple positions contain component X
    Action: Duplicate instances of positions with Component X are removed from positions list.
    Suggested action: None


C.


I'm not sure about the suggested action for 'Territory X has multiple entries' because that would then create territories that
are not contained within the same continent , for which there are no warnings or errors. If X is contained within a objective
or any territory list containing X then you would have a similar dilemma because X(x) won't be.

Something like this could be a genuine mistake or maybe a result of the XML being generated.

That XML would now subsequently be valid (probably with one-way warnings for new territories X(x)) whereas perhaps it should flag some warning.
A corrected XML shouldn't produce any additional warnings.

Agreed with suggested actions on positions. (Can positions contain continents btw - the tutorial implies territories?)


Hang on - what does the multiple entries error mean?

Your comment seems to imply that it is inside of continents?

I am assuming that it is just in the territory list...

The problem with removing multiples here - is that the multiples could be correct with other work having gone into them - but badly named (copied?) - and you lose data...

Perhaps doing nothing would be better?

Pretty sure positions are territories only.

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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby MrBenn on Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:01 pm

yeti_c wrote:Pretty sure positions are territories only.

C.

They are (at the moment).

So too are objectives (for the time being).

natty_dread wrote:
Evil DIMwit wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Here's a suggestion: implement an automatic bonus calculator, that uses the formula in one of the spreadsheet ones to calculate bonuses for the continents...

Not something that needs to be done ASAP, but it would be a nice detail...


On the other hand, bonus assignment is fairly context-sensitive and the spreadsheets are always more like recommendations. Ideally this tool would get used after all the squabbling over gameplay specifics is done with.


Yeah, but it would be a nice addition to the tool. They can always be adjusted by hand later on. And it would make deciding bonuses easier, as you wouldn't have to count territories and borders and whatnot for the spreadsheets, but the program would do it for you.

Chip and I had a long discussion about this at the start of this project - we decided to stay away from that coding suggested bonuses into the tool. This was firstly because there are no perfect algorithms to describe the bonus structure for every potential, because the simplest algorithms are devoid of context and complex algorithms struggle to cope with too many permutations. Secondly, the tool is to assist with XML development, which is the last thing a map needs - at this stage it's probably too late to still be overhauling bonus values.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby Kabanellas on Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:26 pm

chipv......

YOU ARE THE MAN!!!
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby chipv on Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:46 pm

yeti_c wrote:Hang on - what does the multiple entries error mean?

Your comment seems to imply that it is inside of continents?

I am assuming that it is just in the territory list...

The problem with removing multiples here - is that the multiples could be correct with other work having gone into them - but badly named (copied?) - and you lose data...

Perhaps doing nothing would be better?

Pretty sure positions are territories only.

C.

Yes your assumption same as mine, in the territory list.
To exemplify what I was saying:

Code: Select all
<continent>
<name>Solar System</name>
<bonus>5</bonus>
<components>
<territory>Earth</territory>
<territory>Mars</territory>
</components>
</continent>

<territory>
<name>Earth</name>
...
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Earth</name>
...
</territory>

If I rename the duplicate territory, then the duplicate won't be automatically included in territory lists containing the original.

So here if I rename the multiple to Earth2 then Solar system will only include Earth. This could easily be missed by the user
as there won't be a validation problem if the multiple is renamed.

I think maybe do nothing on this one, but still flag.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby ender516 on Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:00 pm

chipv wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Hang on - what does the multiple entries error mean?

Your comment seems to imply that it is inside of continents?

I am assuming that it is just in the territory list...

The problem with removing multiples here - is that the multiples could be correct with other work having gone into them - but badly named (copied?) - and you lose data...

Perhaps doing nothing would be better?

Pretty sure positions are territories only.

C.

Yes your assumption same as mine, in the territory list.
To exemplify what I was saying:

Code: Select all
<continent>
<name>Solar System</name>
<bonus>5</bonus>
<components>
<territory>Earth</territory>
<territory>Mars</territory>
</components>
</continent>

<territory>
<name>Earth</name>
...
</territory>
<territory>
<name>Earth</name>
...
</territory>

If I rename the duplicate territory, then the duplicate won't be automatically included in territory lists containing the original.

So here if I rename the multiple to Earth2 then Solar system will only include Earth. This could easily be missed by the user
as there won't be a validation problem if the multiple is renamed.

I think maybe do nothing on this one, but still flag.

Is there some way to catch and prevent the creation of a duplicate territory? This wouldn't help with the problem of duplicates in XML that the user loads in, but it gets us part way home.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby yeti_c on Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:06 pm

I'm assuming Chip has that as part of his tool - this is purely for loaded XML.#

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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby chipv on Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:14 pm

ender516 wrote:Is there some way to catch and prevent the creation of a duplicate territory? This wouldn't help with the problem of duplicates in XML that the user loads in, but it gets us part way home.


Yes, I could either flag it dynamically or better still, I think, would be to flatly refuse to show the generated XML until
duplicates have been resolved. That would then mean I can leave alone loaded duplicates, but still validate them as errors.

That means the generated XML would always be correct which is what the intention is.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby ender516 on Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:29 pm

chipv wrote:
ender516 wrote:Is there some way to catch and prevent the creation of a duplicate territory? This wouldn't help with the problem of duplicates in XML that the user loads in, but it gets us part way home.


Yes, I could either flag it dynamically or better still, I think, would be to flatly refuse to show the generated XML until
duplicates have been resolved. That would then mean I can leave alone loaded duplicates, but still validate them as errors.

That means the generated XML would always be correct which is what the intention is.

Ah, an excellent solution. Make your watchword: "Garbage in, perhaps, but never garbage out." Never generate XML which has errors. You might even pop up an "Are you sure?" box before showing the XML if warnings are present, so that the user must actively take responsibility for using XML that might not be kosher.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby captainwalrus on Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:12 pm

Perhaps a warning if someone tries to upload and work on a map which is over the size restrictions would be useful?
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby chipv on Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:23 pm

Just updated the tool (mostly for performance on save and load) but I have corrected the system for
adding positions. There is now a new tab for Positions so you can now add multiple territories per position which
should complete the XML combinations now.

I will take a look at the other suggestions including warnings and errors shortly but will be doing another rather useful addition first.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby natty dread on Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:00 pm

will be doing another rather useful addition first.


I hope it'll be the sideways scrolling ;)
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby ender516 on Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:38 pm

I think it would be useful for this tool (or some other) to allow the user to test the XML by assigning territories to players and showing the bonuses achieved. Objectives could be tested in this way as well. This could avoid problems like the one in the Jamaica map where the sugar/slave combinations were carefully planned out, but a small slip made them too generous.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby chipv on Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:44 pm

ender516 wrote:I think it would be useful for this tool (or some other) to allow the user to test the XML by assigning territories to players and showing the bonuses achieved. Objectives could be tested in this way as well. This could avoid problems like the one in the Jamaica map where the sugar/slave combinations were carefully planned out, but a small slip made them too generous.


Oh that's good, that's good. I need to get you on MSN or Skype.
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby yeti_c on Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:58 pm

chipv wrote:
ender516 wrote:I think it would be useful for this tool (or some other) to allow the user to test the XML by assigning territories to players and showing the bonuses achieved. Objectives could be tested in this way as well. This could avoid problems like the one in the Jamaica map where the sugar/slave combinations were carefully planned out, but a small slip made them too generous.


Oh that's good, that's good. I need to get you on MSN or Skype.


Yeah - I always wanted Lack's tester to be able to allow you to allocate starting neutrals too...

The ability to parse the XML - show neutrals/starts/dropping bonuses etc would be great...

Of course - you need to be able to chose the number of players too... 2->8

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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby chipv on Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:08 pm

Yeah already on it.

I'm looking at adding a button "Test Drop" and allow choice of number of players.

Then I calculate random drop and colour each 88 accordingly leaving white for neutrals - how's that?
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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby yeti_c on Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:11 pm

chipv wrote:Yeah already on it.

I'm looking at adding a button "Test Drop" and allow choice of number of players.

Then I calculate random drop and colour each 88 accordingly leaving white for neutrals - how's that?


Sweetness...

(How are you generating the 88's? - Raw HTML doesn't allow us to create the exact numbers? - Or are you using 9 images and overlaying them?!)

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Re: NEW Map XML Wizard

Postby chipv on Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:18 pm

yeti_c wrote:
chipv wrote:Yeah already on it.

I'm looking at adding a button "Test Drop" and allow choice of number of players.

Then I calculate random drop and colour each 88 accordingly leaving white for neutrals - how's that?


Sweetness...

(How are you generating the 88's? - Raw HTML doesn't allow us to create the exact numbers? - Or are you using 9 images and overlaying them?!)

C.


No, I'm proposing to show coloured 88's using a single image and background position for speed.
(The white and yellow 88s are from same image, I also have the rest of the colours)

Army numbers is a whole different ball game, I would have to do what lack does and go through a server to generate a png overlay.

I am thinking that by colouring the territories correctly (taking into account neutrals and maybe showing bonuses calculated) would be good enough.
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