[GP/UI] Poker Spoils

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Which should be used?

True Poker cashing
14
28%
Percentage based cashing
36
72%
 
Total votes : 50

[GP/UI] Poker Spoils

Postby Laughing.Boy on Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:24 pm

Concise description:
  • A system for cashing in spoils, based upon Poker hands, that allows anyone with any spoils to gain troops, but allows those who save up or spend tactically to gain more troops than quick spenders.

Specifics:
  • Whenever a player has even one spoil, he or she may cash it in for its value. The total troop value of all the spoils cashed at a single time are combined to the greatest effect.
  • The combination are:
    • Single - A single spoil cashed.
    • Pair - Two spoils of the same color cashed at the same time.
    • Three-of-a-Kind - Three spoils of the same color cashed at the same time.
    • Four-of-a-Kind - Four spoils of the same color.
    • Flush - Five spoils of the same color cashed at the same time.
    • Run - A set of one red, one green and one blue spoil cashed at the same time.
    • Two Pair - Two Pairs of spoils of the same color cashed at the same time. (i.e. Two green spoils and two red spoils)
    • Full House - A Pair and a Three-of-a-Kind cashed in at the same time. (i.e. Two red spoils and three blue spoils)
  • Each spoil cashed can only be utilized in one of the above sets, with the site awarding the greatest amount possible. (i.e. A player cashing in one red, two blue and two green would receive 12 troops (Two Pair + Single) instead of 7 troops (Run + Single + Single).) (Percentage-Based)
  • There are two main ideas as to how rewards should go. For the sake of discussion, here are the chances of attaining each hand, by hand size:
    Code: Select all
    Set \ Spoils 1    2    3    4    5    AVE
    Single     100% 100% 100% 100% 100%  100.0%
    Pair         0%  33%  78% 100% 100%   62.2%
    Run          0%   0%  22%  44%  62%   25.6%
    3 o'Kind     0%   0%  12%  27%  63%   20.4%
    2 Pairs      0%   0%   0%  22%  62%   16.8%
    4 o'Kind     0%   0%   0%   4%  33%    7.4%
    Full House   0%   0%   0%   0%  25%    5.0%
    Flush        0%   0%   0%   0%   1%    0.2%

    For comparison, here are the chances and Troops per Spoil (T/S) of Flat Rate sets:
    Code: Select all
    Set \ Spoils 1    2    3    4    5    AVE   T/S
    Red          0%   0%   4%  11%  21%   7.2%  1.33
    Green        0%   0%   4%  11%  21%   7.2%  2.00
    Blue         0%   0%   4%  11%  21%   7.2%  2.67
    Mixed        0%   0%  22%  44%  62%  25.6%  3.33
  • Potential Cashing Methods
    • True Poker: Rewards are arranged in the order of hands as per the rules of Poker. With these rules, it may or may not make sense to allow a Single. As such, a possible layout of set bonuses and T/S is (in ascending order of Poker hands):
      Code: Select all
      Set \ Spoils 1    2    3    4    5    AVE    Worth  T/S
      Single     100% 100% 100% 100% 100%  100.0%     1   1.00
      Pair         0%  33%  78% 100% 100%   62.2%     3   1.50
      2 Pairs      0%   0%   0%  22%  62%   16.8%     7   1.75
      3 o'Kind     0%   0%  12%  27%  63%   20.4%     8   2.67
      Run          0%   0%  22%  44%  62%   25.6%     9   3.00
      Flush        0%   0%   0%   0%   1%    0.2%    14   3.50
      Full House   0%   0%   0%   0%  25%    5.0%    18   3.60
      4 o'Kind     0%   0%   0%   4%  33%    7.4%    20   5.00

      There are some obvious flaws, including the spoils system not matching up to the card system of Poker and thus giving bonuses not proportional to the chance of that hand. i.e. In order to make a Full House worth more than a Flush, the T/S and total Bonus need to be higher, despite the Full House being ten times more likely to be obtained. A 4-of-a-Kind, the hardest Poker hand attainable with the spoils system, would be worth over 40% more troops despite being over 30 times more likely to be attained.
    • Percentage-Based: Rewards are arranged in the order of likeliness of attaining them. As such, a possible layout of set bonuses and T/S is (in ascending order of rarity):
      Code: Select all
      Set \ Spoils 1    2    3    4    5    AVE    Worth  T/S
      Single     100% 100% 100% 100% 100%  100.0%     1   1.00
      Pair         0%  33%  78% 100% 100%   62.2%     3   1.50
      Run          0%   0%  22%  44%  62%   25.6%     5   1.67
      3 o'Kind     0%   0%  12%  27%  63%   20.4%     6   2.00
      2 Pairs      0%   0%   0%  22%  62%   16.8%     9   2.25
      4 o'Kind     0%   0%   0%   4%  33%    7.4%    11   2.75
      Full House   0%   0%   0%   0%  25%    5.0%    16   3.20
      Flush        0%   0%   0%   0%   1%    0.2%    20   4.00

      For the purposes of the game, this seems the most fair system.



This will improve the following aspects of the site:
  • Players are no longer occasionally stuck with an uncashable hand until they reach five, thus always giving them the option of bolstering their forces now or saving up for the better reward. Now, a hand of two reds and two blues can be used for a handful of troops instead of waiting for that next spoil. That turn waiting could mean the end of the player.
  • Forces a new tactical decision upon players. i.e. A player sitting on four red spoils can keep cashing his fifth non-red spoil until he gets a Flush.
  • Players who defeat another player and gain his or her spoils could potentially face a great many options with the spoils they gain. With the correct combination of nine spoils, a possible maximum of (41 via True Poker or 36 via Percentage-Based) troops could be gained.
  • Desperate players on the brink of defeat can spend their spoils in an attempt at a final push and to deny their opponent the spoils. Surprise defeats become more useful for gaining enemy spoils.

current as of: 2010.05.10.15.38 CST
Last edited by Laughing.Boy on Mon May 10, 2010 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby frankiebee on Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:39 pm

I like it !
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby Queen_Herpes on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:02 pm

Awesome idea! I would play it! Add it as another game option!
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby capysolo on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:23 pm

Great Idea! I like it!
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby jammyjames on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:26 pm

yeah, looks very promising... really changes the concept of spoils gameplay.
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby jefjef on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:44 pm

A spoils I might even enjoy playing.
This post was made by jefjef who should be on your ignore list.
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby Ninja Champion on Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:33 pm

that would be pretty unique, make it happen!
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby Laughing.Boy on Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:11 pm

Thanks for the support!

I ran some numbers and, with the rewards I posted above, I calculated the Troops per Spoil (T/S) of each hand, as well as those from the Flat Rate spoils system. This gives an idea of how the two systems stack up reward-wise and, within the Poker system, how saving up benefits the player more.

Code: Select all
      FLAT RATE
   Set     T/S 
Red        1.33
Green      2.00
Blue       2.67
Mixed      3.33
      POKER RATE
Single     1.00
Pair       1.50
2 Pairs    1.75
3 o'Kind   2.00
Run        2.00
Full House 2.00
4 o'Kind   2.50
Flush      3.00


What surprised me was a Mixed set in Flat Rate was actually more rewarding than a Flush in Poker Rate. I'd been afraid 15 troops was too much.

However, the real kicker is gaining a Mixed set in Flat Rate is no more difficult than attaining any of the other sets. And it's a good deal easier than obtaining a Flush in Poker Rate. On the other hand, one's collection of spoils is a lot more controllable in Poker Rate. You can ditch one spoil for a single troop in hopes of drawing a different spoil to make a better set for next turn. Do the two balance out? I don't know.
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby max is gr8 on Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:38 pm

I'm not sure, can you run percentage chances of getting each of them?

I think they are fairer as there is less variance in them so I actually really like this idea
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby yeti_c on Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:02 pm

This is awesome.

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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby ljex on Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:06 pm

Two pair should not be better than 3 of a kind at that does not follow poker hands
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby yeti_c on Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:10 pm

ljex wrote:Two pair should not be better than 3 of a kind at that does not follow poker hands


Valid point.

Of course the other thing that you don't get is flushes either...

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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby chipv on Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:25 pm

Superb. Quench immediately.
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby 72o on Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:27 pm

If we do something like this, I would rather see actual playing cards and a "deck" rather than 3 colors and territory names from the map you're playing.

That way 2 pair would be actually 2 pair and not 2 of the same "suit", as it were. Straights would then be possible.

You wouldn't get the +2 bonuses, but since you have a lot more ways to cash I would think that wouldn't matter.
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby ljex on Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:32 pm

72o wrote:If we do something like this, I would rather see actual playing cards and a "deck" rather than 3 colors and territory names from the map you're playing.

That way 2 pair would be actually 2 pair and not 2 of the same "suit", as it were. Straights would then be possible.

You wouldn't get the +2 bonuses, but since you have a lot more ways to cash I would think that wouldn't matter.


I think this would actually be fun and add a lot of strategy while actually maintaining the odds and poker hands
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby Laughing.Boy on Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:43 pm

max is gr8 wrote:I'm not sure, can you run percentage chances of getting each of them?

I think they are fairer as there is less variance in them so I actually really like this idea


I think these are correct. I had to calculate based upon hand size...

Code: Select all
Set \ Spoils 1    2    3    4    5   T/S
  FLAT
Red          0%   0%   4%  11%  21%
Green        0%   0%   4%  11%  21%
Blue         0%   0%   4%  11%  21%
Mixed        0%   0%  22%  44%  62%
  POKER
Single     100% 100% 100% 100% 100%
Pair         0%  33%  78% 100% 100%
3 o'Kind     0%   0%  12%  27%  63%
4 o'Kind     0%   0%   0%   4%  33%
Flush        0%   0%   0%   0%   1%
Run          0%   0%  22%  44%  62%
2 Pairs      0%   0%   0%  22%  62%
Full House   0%   0%   0%   0%  25%


So, by the statistics here, a Full House should bestow a better relative bonus than Four of a Kind. Also...

ljex wrote:Two pair should not be better than 3 of a kind at that does not follow poker hands


I was only basing the possible spoil sets upon common Poker sets. However, statistically, a Two Pair is less common a set than a Three of a Kind. (With five spoils it's barely a difference, however.) This brings up the topic of how much the Poker Rate should reflect actual Poker rules versus following statistical balance. Again, up for debate.


72o wrote:If we do something like this, I would rather see actual playing cards and a "deck" rather than 3 colors and territory names from the map you're playing.

That way 2 pair would be actually 2 pair and not 2 of the same "suit", as it were. Straights would then be possible.

You wouldn't get the +2 bonuses, but since you have a lot more ways to cash I would think that wouldn't matter.


There's a couple things I see in the way of that... Firstly it would require a bit more programming to implement. Right now I'd expect the spoils are generated off of the XML of each map. A custom XML of a deck of cards would have to be referenced (not that hard) when using the Poker Rate in this configuration.
Secondly, and this is a much bigger problem, is you now have a lot more rules to program in and the potential that a full hand of five spoils could be worth noting but singles. i.e. Jack of Clubs, Ace of Hearts, Two of Clubs, Five of Diamonds and Ten of Spades makes no Poker hand, and thus that full hand is worth five. Now, a player could keep tossing cards until they get a hand, which might be cool, but now it's approaching a level of complexity I'm not sure is entirely worth it.
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby 72o on Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:02 pm

Laughing.Boy wrote:
72o wrote:If we do something like this, I would rather see actual playing cards and a "deck" rather than 3 colors and territory names from the map you're playing.

That way 2 pair would be actually 2 pair and not 2 of the same "suit", as it were. Straights would then be possible.

You wouldn't get the +2 bonuses, but since you have a lot more ways to cash I would think that wouldn't matter.


There's a couple things I see in the way of that... Firstly it would require a bit more programming to implement. Right now I'd expect the spoils are generated off of the XML of each map. A custom XML of a deck of cards would have to be referenced (not that hard) when using the Poker Rate in this configuration.
Secondly, and this is a much bigger problem, is you now have a lot more rules to program in and the potential that a full hand of five spoils could be worth noting but singles. i.e. Jack of Clubs, Ace of Hearts, Two of Clubs, Five of Diamonds and Ten of Spades makes no Poker hand, and thus that full hand is worth five. Now, a player could keep tossing cards until they get a hand, which might be cool, but now it's approaching a level of complexity I'm not sure is entirely worth it.


I don't think the number of possibilities makes it too complex...it was done for the continent bonuses on the poker map.

I think you may have to set some rules as to how the cash takes place; i.e. No single card cashing. You must have a pair or better to cash prior to having 5 cards. The only way to get rid of a hand of rags would be to cash all 5 at once.

This makes it interesting...if your opponent is holding 5 cards, either they have nothing at all, or they're waiting to see if they get their straight, flush, or full house...
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby yeti_c on Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:39 am

72o wrote:
Laughing.Boy wrote:
72o wrote:If we do something like this, I would rather see actual playing cards and a "deck" rather than 3 colors and territory names from the map you're playing.

That way 2 pair would be actually 2 pair and not 2 of the same "suit", as it were. Straights would then be possible.

You wouldn't get the +2 bonuses, but since you have a lot more ways to cash I would think that wouldn't matter.


There's a couple things I see in the way of that... Firstly it would require a bit more programming to implement. Right now I'd expect the spoils are generated off of the XML of each map. A custom XML of a deck of cards would have to be referenced (not that hard) when using the Poker Rate in this configuration.
Secondly, and this is a much bigger problem, is you now have a lot more rules to program in and the potential that a full hand of five spoils could be worth noting but singles. i.e. Jack of Clubs, Ace of Hearts, Two of Clubs, Five of Diamonds and Ten of Spades makes no Poker hand, and thus that full hand is worth five. Now, a player could keep tossing cards until they get a hand, which might be cool, but now it's approaching a level of complexity I'm not sure is entirely worth it.


I don't think the number of possibilities makes it too complex...it was done for the continent bonuses on the poker map.

I think you may have to set some rules as to how the cash takes place; i.e. No single card cashing. You must have a pair or better to cash prior to having 5 cards. The only way to get rid of a hand of rags would be to cash all 5 at once.

This makes it interesting...if your opponent is holding 5 cards, either they have nothing at all, or they're waiting to see if they get their straight, flush, or full house...


Have you seen the XML for Poker Club?

It's very complicated... and Lack would have to right all of that code into his PHP engine...

Also - if you have normal cards - how do you get the 2 for owning the card?!

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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby 72o on Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:39 am

yeti_c wrote:
72o wrote:
Laughing.Boy wrote:
72o wrote:If we do something like this, I would rather see actual playing cards and a "deck" rather than 3 colors and territory names from the map you're playing.

That way 2 pair would be actually 2 pair and not 2 of the same "suit", as it were. Straights would then be possible.

You wouldn't get the +2 bonuses, but since you have a lot more ways to cash I would think that wouldn't matter.


There's a couple things I see in the way of that... Firstly it would require a bit more programming to implement. Right now I'd expect the spoils are generated off of the XML of each map. A custom XML of a deck of cards would have to be referenced (not that hard) when using the Poker Rate in this configuration.
Secondly, and this is a much bigger problem, is you now have a lot more rules to program in and the potential that a full hand of five spoils could be worth noting but singles. i.e. Jack of Clubs, Ace of Hearts, Two of Clubs, Five of Diamonds and Ten of Spades makes no Poker hand, and thus that full hand is worth five. Now, a player could keep tossing cards until they get a hand, which might be cool, but now it's approaching a level of complexity I'm not sure is entirely worth it.


I don't think the number of possibilities makes it too complex...it was done for the continent bonuses on the poker map.

I think you may have to set some rules as to how the cash takes place; i.e. No single card cashing. You must have a pair or better to cash prior to having 5 cards. The only way to get rid of a hand of rags would be to cash all 5 at once.

This makes it interesting...if your opponent is holding 5 cards, either they have nothing at all, or they're waiting to see if they get their straight, flush, or full house...


Have you seen the XML for Poker Club?

It's very complicated... and Lack would have to right all of that code into his PHP engine...

Also - if you have normal cards - how do you get the 2 for owning the card?!

C.


You don't. See the bolded part above. I think there are enough ways to get a poker hand bonus, you don't need the +2s if you're playing this spoils type.

And I haven't seen the poker club xml, but then I know nothing about xml so I wouldn't know whether it was complicated or not even if I did see it.

I just think it would be better to have actual cards and thus more closely represent the odds of poker hands. With no card "ranks", and only 3 "suits", the odds of getting a particular hand are skewed.

If it's too complicated, so be it. I like the idea, I just think if it's done, it would be much more interesting to take it a step further.
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby Laughing.Boy on Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:31 am

I see both ways having merit. However, in the long run I don't see both being implemented, if any are implemented at all. (Though I hope one is.)
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby karelpietertje on Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:58 am

give it to us please :D please please please! :D:D:D =D>
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby ask me2 on Wed Jan 13, 2010 4:57 pm

Sounds great!
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby Queen_Herpes on Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:05 am

I would play this optin more than once!
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby AAFitz on Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:13 am

I think this is perhaps the most original and most fun variation on spoils ive seen...problem is, coding that will also be the most difficult, since it will require enabling a cash at one and two cards...and more than 3 at a time....

I seriously want to play it right now though.
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Re: Poker Spoils

Postby Fuzzylogic99 on Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:00 pm

interesting idea....needs some of the bugs worked out first though

- some issues

- as Queenie mention the value of the sets are out of order.Pairs needs to be less than three of
a kind etc..

- I would get rid of singles and start with pairs to add a litttle more of a Challenger.Dont want
to make it too easy but this is my opinion

honestly except for that I dont see anything wrong with this idea
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