Japan:Sengoku Jidai v0.21 - pg 2

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Japan:Sengoku Jidai v0.21 - pg 2

Postby skepticCS on Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:58 pm

Summary

As of v0.21:

- 61 territories
- Players start at clan castles, playing role of daimyo
- players receive +6 auto-deploy for each castle
- remainder of territories are neutral (of various sizes depending on location)
- No "continents", rather bonuses based upon control of certain resources/political positions/individuals
- Victory is achieved be eliminating all opponents or capturing a certain set of territories and quantity of resources


v0.21
Click image to enlarge.
image

NOTE: The castle in the top-right portion of the map is enclosed in its own territory. For some reason, that did not appear on the map displayed above.


Update 2/23/2010



I'm currently running with natty_dread's suggestion to add a resource element to the map. I added two main "resources": manpower and mines. I also developed a symbol and plan to incorporate farmland into the mix, but the end result saw the map way too cluttered (in my opinion), leaving little room for province names and such. Though It's not represented here, I delimited a six-territory "sphere of influence" around each castle. I used this area as a basis for where to place resources. Basically, each castle has relatively easy access to two manpower territories early on. Expansion beyond that (assuming a full map of 8 players) will require them to content with their neighbors. Mines were placed on two "neutral" territories on the south and north sides of the island. These territories are not officially in the sphere of influence of any one clan, though it is probably obvious that certain clans could get to the mines easier than others. For that reason, I demanded that a player control 3 manpower before they can gain the mine bonus. That way, even if a player quickly takes the mine, no benefit will be received until they actually go out and conquer manpower from other daimyo.

I added a bonus of +6 for any player holding the shogun's hall and 10 manpower. Essentially, a player in this position has conquered more than half of the island is firmly controls the shogunate, even if there are detractors. The way I expect this to play out is that two players eventually emerge strong in the north and south and they jockey over control of the imperial palace and the two manpower units in the central region of the map. However, I imagine some players will secure territories on the opposite side of the island BEFORE going for the imperial palace and plenty will ignore the palace altogether in favor of gunning for their opponents, but I wanted to give players some incentive to go for the objectives if they are so inclined.

The tax collector bonus is one of those incentives. I was also thinking of adding another bonus related to the court nobles (hold court nobles + 3 castles = 3 armies). I'm not sure what to do with the advisor and regalia territories. Right now they are simply more buffers between the gate and the ninja.

Speaking of the ninja, I will be moving its connection so that it can only be accessed after going through the empress (entirely a gameplay concern, no historical basis that I know of).

Finally, the big change is the addition of a victory condition. I will probably up the castle requirement to 6, but other than that, I have no changes to that element of the map. Any thoughts?

To Do:

Gameplay
- Nail down impassibles (I'm pretty happy with them now, but I may add another 1 or 2)
- Determine the territory bonus structure (currently in progress)
- Settle on gameplay layout (attack routes, neutrals, resets, etc) for the inset territories
- Decided on how many neutral armies for each territory
- Set victory condition(s) (currently in progress)

Graphics
- decide how much to retain from v0.1
- inset
- main map
- territory names
- background
- impassibles
- castles
- sea routes/ships
- legend
- title
- mini map (if necessary)

The graphics stuff will become more specific when the time comes to serious consider those things, but if anyone has any thing to suggest, graphics or gameplay, please do so!


Older Versions w/ Discussions

show: v0.1 and v0.2
Last edited by skepticCS on Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:27 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Gidai v0.1

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:04 pm

I love it! I'm a huge fan of feudal & pre-feudal japan. There's already a japan map in the final forge though, so you'll need to make sure your gameplay will be significantly unique.

As for questions:

- Should I make the daimyo separate, capturable territories?


Yes, I think so. It would add to the feel, making the Daimyo something "real", that you can capture and hold, instead of just capturing territories that have Daimyo... therefore giving a more active role to the daimyo, which would be appropriate, they were persons of great power in the warring states era.

- Do I need to better clarify how the palace inset connects to the map?


Yes please. Take a look at imperium romanum, the insets were implemented quite nicely in that map.

- Should I add region names to the map? This seems like a no-brainer, but it kinda looks nice without them. I'll let the community decide.


Yes, they are required.

- Should I add more bonuses?


If you mean land area bonuses, no, the current ones are plenty. If you mean some other kind of gameplay bonuses, then yes, there's a lot of creative stuff that could be done.

In fact, I think you should scrap the whole bonus area aspect, and take more of a conquest approach to the map... ie. kinda like feudal wars, with starting positions, and having to expand and conquer the map. I think it would fit the theme much better than a random drop with bonus areas. Think daimyos who each fight to unite the country and gain the seat of the shogun. Each player could start as a single daimyo, controlling only his own han, and from there each would need to expand to the map. This would also make the gameplay distinct from the current japan map.

- Should there be a victory condition?


If you go with the conquest theme I suggested above, then yes.

- Unsheathe the sword?


Nah.

On another note unrelated to this map, I've been thinking about a certain map project for a long time: I've been wanting to make a map of the Dan-no-ura battle. However my historical knowledge about the battle is weak at best, and I had a hard time trying to find information about it. You seem like you know about this stuff, so if you would be willing to work with me on the project some time in the future it'd be great.
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Gidai v0.1

Postby jpshuz on Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:52 pm

Looks great so far, Well done!!! sign me up when it's ready!!!
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Gidai v0.1

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:47 pm

I don't get where the Imperial Palace connects to on the main map.
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Gidai v0.1

Postby MengdeNobunaga on Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:04 pm

Me and a friend have been wondering about a map like this for a while, I really hope it goes through as well since we've been dying to play a map based on Sengoku Japan or Three Kingdoms China.
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Gidai v0.1

Postby skepticCS on Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:21 pm

Thanks for the interest everyone! And thank you Natty for all the comments and suggestions!

natty_dread wrote:
- Should I make the daimyo separate, capturable territories?


Yes, I think so. It would add to the feel, making the Daimyo something "real", that you can capture and hold, instead of just capturing territories that have Daimyo... therefore giving a more active role to the daimyo, which would be appropriate, they were persons of great power in the warring states era.

- Should I add more bonuses?


If you mean land area bonuses, no, the current ones are plenty. If you mean some other kind of gameplay bonuses, then yes, there's a lot of creative stuff that could be done.


In fact, I think you should scrap the whole bonus area aspect, and take more of a conquest approach to the map... ie. kinda like feudal wars, with starting positions, and having to expand and conquer the map. I think it would fit the theme much better than a random drop with bonus areas. Think daimyos who each fight to unite the country and gain the seat of the shogun. Each player could start as a single daimyo, controlling only his own han, and from there each would need to expand to the map. This would also make the gameplay distinct from the current japan map.

- Should there be a victory condition?


If you go with the conquest theme I suggested above, then yes.


Ok. I grouped the above together because they go along with a theme that I've been debating whether or not to implement myself. I love the idea of conquest themed maps and I enjoy having players step into the ROLE of an historical figure rather than simply being a smattering of territories across a map. The problem with this is that the geography of Japan does not lend itself easily fair starting positions for 8 daimyo. I think it can be done with a created use of impassibles and ports, but I still wonder whether I can eliminate the inherent bonus in being the clan closest to the imperial palace or the clan on the edge tips of the island with easily defensible positions. But, I suppose that's what this process if for, right?

One possible solution would be to require a player to control 5-6 daimyo as well as certain territories in the imperial palace before victory can be achieved. This way, even on player could make a mad dash for the palace, they would still have subdue most of the other players before winning. Additionally, moving quickly for the emperor would put a target on your head for the other daimyo, forcing players staring in the central regions of the island to consider whether it isn't more prudent to consolidate your lands and conquer your neighbors before moving on the capital. I could also reduce the bonuses and benefits for holding the imperial palace territories, so that whoever takes it first doesn't become an immediate power house.

Another option could be to add a capturable ninja territory connected to or near every daimyo with the ability to bombard the shogun's hall. That way, anyone who takes that territory better have a massive army ready to back them up and hold their claim.

I'd like to keep some sort of regional bonus to give players a further incentive to develop closer to home, though I kinda like the model used on the England map where controlling a certain number of territories in a certain region gives you a bonus rather than simply holding a set of specific territories. I could also simply give players a bonus for every x number of territories they hold ANYWHERE on the map, though that would provide little incentive for regional development.

Of course, I may just end up leaving it as it is... :lol:

Let me know what you think about those ideas and shoot off any others you may have. We'll get a good set of gameplay mechanics and then I'll change the map accordingly.

natty_dread wrote:
- Do I need to better clarify how the palace inset connects to the map?


Yes please. Take a look at imperium romanum, the insets were implemented quite nicely in that map.


This has been the model I was using for this map. I'm going to keep working on this issue throughout since I don't plan on scrapping the inset.

natty_dread wrote:
- Should I add region names to the map? This seems like a no-brainer, but it kinda looks nice without them. I'll let the community decide.


Yes, they are required.


Then I will add them.


natty_dread wrote:On another note unrelated to this map, I've been thinking about a certain map project for a long time: I've been wanting to make a map of the Dan-no-ura battle. However my historical knowledge about the battle is weak at best, and I had a hard time trying to find information about it. You seem like you know about this stuff, so if you would be willing to work with me on the project some time in the future it'd be great.


To tell you the truth, I am not an specialist on Japan in any way. I really like the period and have done my best to learn about it enough to put this map together, but I bring no special knowledge to the table. That said, I wouldn't mind doing research and working on such a map with you in the future when things calm down with Sengoku. Talk with me in a few months maybe. I might have more time on my hands to get some research done. I've already found a good background image for the map :D :

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... Kassen.jpg

Some brief research suggest a lot of literature on many other battles during the Genpei War. Could be a good basis for a map series...
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Gidai v0.1

Postby natty dread on Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:53 pm

skepticCS wrote:To tell you the truth, I am not an specialist on Japan in any way. I really like the period and have done my best to learn about it enough to put this map together, but I bring no special knowledge to the table. That said, I wouldn't mind doing research and working on such a map with you in the future when things calm down with Sengoku. Talk with me in a few months maybe.


Yes, I also have other projects I need to get out of the way first. But maybe in the future...

Ok. I grouped the above together because they go along with a theme that I've been debating whether or not to implement myself. I love the idea of conquest themed maps and I enjoy having players step into the ROLE of an historical figure rather than simply being a smattering of territories across a map. The problem with this is that the geography of Japan does not lend itself easily fair starting positions for 8 daimyo.


Yes... if possible, I'd suggest making the map a bit bigger and adding more territories... I'm not sure if this is feasible, but it's worth looking into. You have lots of unused space left, your image is 800x500 when the maximum 840x800.

Another possibility is a mixed drop like in 3rd crusade map: starting positions that have more troops, and the rest of the territories with a random drop of 3 each...
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Gidai v0.1

Postby skepticCS on Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:40 pm

natty_dread wrote:Yes... if possible, I'd suggest making the map a bit bigger and adding more territories... I'm not sure if this is feasible, but it's worth looking into. You have lots of unused space left, your image is 800x500 when the maximum 840x800.


Well, the original map I based this off of had about three times as many territories on it. I aggregated them because I felt that they would be too difficult to see on a CC map, but if I could get some consensus that this wouldn't be too cluttered, I would not mind going back and redoing the map with more territs. If I do, I can always move all starting positions out of the central region, add port access between the center and the tips, and add impassibles to make it difficult to attack other players' starting territs too quickly.

natty_dread wrote:Another possibility is a mixed drop like in 3rd crusade map: starting positions that have more troops, and the rest of the territories with a random drop of 3 each...


This is vaguely the idea I had in my head when I decided on the path that led to this initial version of the map. It's another possibility I'm considering though, ideally, we can work out a way to get fixed starting positions fit in somehow.
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Gidai v0.1

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:44 pm

Hm, this looks pretty interesting...I'll have to investigate it further when I've more than a moment!


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Re: Japan:Sengoku Gidai v0.1

Postby ghirrindin on Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:24 pm

I would try to simplify the connections between the buildings in the imperial palace. For example in some instances, you have two small pathways when you could easily have just one larger path. Also, I would suggest changing the color of the building outlines to something different from the paths so it's easier to tell the difference. That way, it'll be easier to tell what's going on up there.

Maybe if you did enlarge the map, you could allot more space to the imperial palace inset, so it won't be as cluttered.
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Gidai v0.1

Postby MrBenn on Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:27 pm

skepticCS wrote:Map Name: Japan: Sengoku Gidai
Link to Thread: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=109476
Mapmaker(s): SkepticCS
Map Size: 47 territories
Your aims/design style: The Sengoku Gidai period in Japan lends itself well to the the conquer club format. A period of over 100 years marked by near constant conflict between many warring factions vying for control of the emperor. For this map, I would like to model not only the geography of 15th-17th century Japan, but also the politics. I would like players to get a sense of the struggle amongst many clans to control the island as well as the difficulty in doing so.
Uniqueness: Although there is another Japan map currently going through the foundry, this map offers not only a unique time period in the island, but incorporates distinct elements from that period not found in the later era, such as the role of the daimyo, the emperor, and ninjas. I wish this map to not simply be a standard territory capture, but also a role-playing experience.
Relevant Experience: I have never worked on a CC map before and have no formal training with any graphics software. However, I have been absorbing some of the lessons and techniques from individuals here in the foundry and beyond to improve my map-making skills and look forward to the opportunity to learn by doing.

This is a very-well written design brief - you have a clear focus for what you hope to achieve, and the discussion in the thread to date gives me confidence that you are considering a variety of options how to implement your vision.

Graphically the map has a long way to go - although I am a big fan of the fact you are not using the maximum available size, and would encourage you to stick with the approximate proportions you have now ;-)

I think there will be some concerns with regards to fitting everything in, and there are definitely some issues about clarity of attack routes etc. The key focus should be on getting things to work properly - and the best place for that is in the gameplay workshop.

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Re: Japan:Sengoku Gidai v0.1

Postby shakeycat on Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:36 pm

You mean "Sengoku Jidai".
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Gidai v0.1

Postby skepticCS on Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:33 pm

MrBenn wrote:
skepticCS wrote:Map Name: Japan: Sengoku Gidai
Link to Thread: viewtopic.php?f=63&t=109476
Mapmaker(s): SkepticCS
Map Size: 47 territories
Your aims/design style: The Sengoku Gidai period in Japan lends itself well to the the conquer club format. A period of over 100 years marked by near constant conflict between many warring factions vying for control of the emperor. For this map, I would like to model not only the geography of 15th-17th century Japan, but also the politics. I would like players to get a sense of the struggle amongst many clans to control the island as well as the difficulty in doing so.
Uniqueness: Although there is another Japan map currently going through the foundry, this map offers not only a unique time period in the island, but incorporates distinct elements from that period not found in the later era, such as the role of the daimyo, the emperor, and ninjas. I wish this map to not simply be a standard territory capture, but also a role-playing experience.
Relevant Experience: I have never worked on a CC map before and have no formal training with any graphics software. However, I have been absorbing some of the lessons and techniques from individuals here in the foundry and beyond to improve my map-making skills and look forward to the opportunity to learn by doing.

This is a very-well written design brief - you have a clear focus for what you hope to achieve, and the discussion in the thread to date gives me confidence that you are considering a variety of options how to implement your vision.

Graphically the map has a long way to go - although I am a big fan of the fact you are not using the maximum available size, and would encourage you to stick with the approximate proportions you have now ;-)

I think there will be some concerns with regards to fitting everything in, and there are definitely some issues about clarity of attack routes etc. The key focus should be on getting things to work properly - and the best place for that is in the gameplay workshop.

[Moved]


Thanks, MrBenn! I'm looking forward to working through all the maps problems and see it to the end.

shakeycat wrote:You mean "Sengoku Jidai".


Whoops! That's a big booboo. That's for point that out. It's corrected on the forum title and will be fixed on the map soon.

Based on my discussions with natty_dread and my own personal interests, I've decided to explore an alternative path for the map. Since that involves completely re-imagining its layout, I've decided to redraw the map (probably had to be done anyway). Here is a draft of v0.2.

Click image to enlarge.
image


Keep in mind, the map size is way over limit. This is just to illustrate the basic gameplay and will be fixed in the next version. Here are the basics:

Every player starts off as one of the 8 daimyo and has the objective of either conquering all of their opponents or meeting a certain set of victory conditions. Every other territory is neutral. Every player's home castle is 6 territories from the imperial province and at least 6 territories away from every other player's castle. The impassibles and ports are designed to work towards that end, promoting equality of opportunity. Of course, I'm sure there are flaws, but that's what we're here for, right?

The imperial palace inset will return and have much of the same structure, except that the gates will have to change to reflect the changes in the main map. Ghirrindin, I think you're right about the confusion with the paths between palace structures. I am going to change them quite a bit once the main map gameplay gets settled.

As of right now, I'm not set on region bonuses. I'm debating whether to create a set of territories for each daimyo and providing a bonus for controlling all of them, but I do not think that represents the plurality of the feudal clan system of Japan (not that I'm an expert on that), so I'm leaning more towards a general territory bonus that applies either to broad portion of the map (northern/southern territories a la the England map) or across the entire map (i.e. control x territories anywhere, get +y troops and so on). I'm leaning toward the former but I'm open to either. Castles will definitely get an auto-deploy bonus, but the exact number can be worked out as we go along.

Here is my main concern. I really like the idea of role-playing in conquer club maps; the idea that you are taking a real person/nation towards a specific victory against specific enemies. The problem that I wish to avoid, is the desire to make a mad dash at your opponents and ignore the victory objectives. Conversely, I don't want the exact reverse of that. I hope to inspire a mix of consolidating your territories, eliminating you enemies, and achieving the victory conditions. Any ideas that work towards that end are most welcome.

One good thing about the geography of Japan is that, while it is relatively easy to focus on the enemies on your half of the island, getting to those on the other side is more difficult than going for the objective. What I hope is that, in a 6-8 person game, two or three major forces will emerge in the north and south and fight for the victory. I think I may make the ship routes one-way to reinforce this.

Sorry this has gone on so long. There is much more to mention, but I'll let you all weigh in. Yes, after all this, I'm going to open up a poll on whether I should go with the new plan of set starting positions and victory conditions or more of a standard play style, as presented in my original version (v0.1)

Let me know what you think and thanks for the support and advice so far!
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Jidai v0.1/v0.2 - POLL

Postby MengdeNobunaga on Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:48 pm

Everything's looking good so far, with the V2 map will there be colour coded territories as to the respective warlords? (Keeping in line with the video game Samurai Warriors as a template, the Oda being black and purple, the Date being green as examples).

Other than than, it's looking good and I'm hoping to see this become a proper map.
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Gidai v0.1

Postby MrBenn on Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:34 pm

skepticCS wrote:Every player starts off as one of the 8 daimyo and has the objective of either conquering all of their opponents or meeting a certain set of victory conditions. Every other territory is neutral. Every player's home castle is 6 territories from the imperial province and at least 6 territories away from every other player's castle. The impassibles and ports are designed to work towards that end, promoting equality of opportunity. Of course, I'm sure there are flaws, but that's what we're here for, right?

The imperial palace inset will return and have much of the same structure, except that the gates will have to change to reflect the changes in the main map. Ghirrindin, I think you're right about the confusion with the paths between palace structures. I am going to change them quite a bit once the main map gameplay gets settled.

As of right now, I'm not set on region bonuses. I'm debating whether to create a set of territories for each daimyo and providing a bonus for controlling all of them, but I do not think that represents the plurality of the feudal clan system of Japan (not that I'm an expert on that), so I'm leaning more towards a general territory bonus that applies either to broad portion of the map (northern/southern territories a la the England map) or across the entire map (i.e. control x territories anywhere, get +y troops and so on). I'm leaning toward the former but I'm open to either. Castles will definitely get an auto-deploy bonus, but the exact number can be worked out as we go along.

Here is my main concern. I really like the idea of role-playing in conquer club maps; the idea that you are taking a real person/nation towards a specific victory against specific enemies. The problem that I wish to avoid, is the desire to make a mad dash at your opponents and ignore the victory objectives. Conversely, I don't want the exact reverse of that. I hope to inspire a mix of consolidating your territories, eliminating you enemies, and achieving the victory conditions. Any ideas that work towards that end are most welcome.

I'm glad the Imperial Palace inset will reappear - I was a little bit worried that things were going to take a dramatic change of direction.
It's good that you're trying to focus discussion in the right area, and are raising your specific concerns.
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Jidai v0.1/v0.2 - POLL

Postby skepticCS on Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:36 pm

MengdeNobunaga wrote:Everything's looking good so far, with the V2 map will there be colour coded territories as to the respective warlords? (Keeping in line with the video game Samurai Warriors as a template, the Oda being black and purple, the Date being green as examples).



Well, this is one of the questions I would like to pose to the community. I'm considering four main options:

1 - Standard "continent"-style bonuses for each clan requiring player hold all territories to receive the bonus armies.
2 - Clan "continents" which provide a bonus for every x territories held within them (a la Feudal War/New World).
3 - Region-based bonuses which provide armies for every x territories held within a certain portion of the map (A la England).
4 - Incremental bonus for every x territories held ANYWHERE on the map.

These will be in addition to bonuses relating to certain combinations of imperial characters held (in the inset) and the auto deployed troops on each player's clan castle. I am partial to options 3 and 4, but I am open to considering 1 and 2 as well as any others I have not thought of.

I am also concerned with balance for each starting position. As mentioned above, I have made sure that all castles are at least 6 territories away from each other and 6 territories away from the imperial palace, but I one thing I did not ensure was that each castle had relatively equal access to the same number of territories. I'm thinking 5 to 6 territories firmly within the sphere of influence of each castle. These would be territories that are within reach of the player (dice notwithstanding) within the first 2 to 3 rounds, but would take neighbors 3 to 5 rounds to secure (though it could be possible for a neighbor to simply "break in" to these territories earlier if they put everything into it). That will be the next step for me, gameplay-wise.

I'm going to leave the poll up for anther few days, but I personally really prefer the direction of v0.2. With this in mind, I am updating my "To Do" list for the map:

To Do (v0.2):

Gameplay
- Nail down impassibles (I'm pretty happy with them now, but I may add another 1 or 2)
- Determine the territory bonus structure
- Settle on gameplay layout (attack routes, neutrals, resets, etc) for the inset territories
- Decided on how many neutral armies for each territory
- Set victory condition(s)

Graphics
- decide how much to retain from v0.1
- inset
- main map
- territory names
- background
- impassibles
- castles
- sea routes/ships
- legend
- title
- mini map (if necessary)

The graphics stuff will become more specific when the time comes to serious consider those things, but if anyone has any thing to suggest, graphics or gameplay, please do so!
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Jidai v0.1/v0.2 - POLL

Postby ghirrindin on Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:59 am

I prefer gameplay option number 2. I think it would most capture the feel of enfeoffing the peasantry in your rise to power as emperor of Japan! Given the feel of the map, options one and four would come off as flat and stale, while I do see some of the same merit in option 3.
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Jidai v0.1/v0.2 - POLL

Postby skepticCS on Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:56 pm

ghirrindin wrote:I prefer gameplay option number 2. I think it would most capture the feel of enfeoffing the peasantry in your rise to power as emperor of Japan! Given the feel of the map, options one and four would come off as flat and stale, while I do see some of the same merit in option 3.



I agree with the assessment regarding options 1 and 4 and was expecting those to be out of the equation right off the bat, but I'd still like them to be out there for consideration. As to option 2: It can certainly work out that each clan has 6 "home" territories, including their castles, with me having to add/remove only 1 or 2 territories here and there. I'm not opposed to this idea, but I'm still not set on it over option 3 yet. My main reasoning is that if we, for the sake of simplicity, assume that each province represents a minor, non-playable clan, what justification would there be for grouping them in relation to the playable clans? What significant difference would there be between two minor clans on either side of these fictive borders? I realize this logic is more historical and less gameplay related and seems to argue more for option 4 than anything, but it's a concern that I have.

One way to balance this out may be to provide a bonus to players controlling x territories in a sphere of influence in which they do not own the castle. So, for instance, the Hojo player would get +1 for every 2 Hojo territories they control (since they hold the Hojo castle) and +1 for every 3 Takeda territories they hold without holding the Takeda castle. For me that is a good balance between gameplay and historical concerns.

I am planning on making the central region of the map attached to the imperial province bonus-wise, so that holding the emperor plus any 2 (or 1) central territory provides a +1 bonus. This might be enhanced by holding more imperial palace territories.

What do you all think?
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Jidai v0.1/v0.2 - POLL

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:31 am

For the bonus structure, you might consider resource pairs. Such as, hold "peasants" + "rice fields" = +2... etc.

I think it'd be more realistic than any system based on the territory count. I mean, for the feudal daimyo, the peasants were the most important resources of the land they controlled: they did all the work that made the lands profitable.

Then you could have different resources, like gold mines, forests... IIRC there was a large forest industry in Hokkaido at the time.

After the shogunate was formed, controlling the gold mines was one of the elements that kept them in power. The shogunate owned all the gold mines in the land, and if anyone found any new mines, they would automatically belong to the shogunate. They didn't want the daimyo to become too rich, they could become a threat to the shogunate after all.

However your map is about the Sengoku Jidai era, and if I'm not hugely mistaken the shogunate only came to be after the Tokugawa clan "united" (=conquered) the country, which happened at the end of the warring states -period. So including the shogunate in the map would be an anachronism?
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Jidai v0.1/v0.2 - POLL

Postby skepticCS on Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:25 am

natty_dread wrote:However your map is about the Sengoku Jidai era, and if I'm not hugely mistaken the shogunate only came to be after the Tokugawa clan "united" (=conquered) the country, which happened at the end of the warring states -period. So including the shogunate in the map would be an anachronism?


The shogunate had existed for centuries before the Sengoku period. In fact, the Onin War, beginning in 1467 that seems to be generally recognized as initiating the Sengoku Jidai, was started over control of the the existing shogunate. The interesting thing with this war is that, by this time, the title of shogun had become hereditary to the Ashikaga family and two main sets of daimyo (led by the Hosokawa and Yamana clans respectively) fought, not to declare themselves shogun, but to install their own puppet Ashikaga shogun (one of two brothers I believe), essentially becoming the shadow government of a shadow government. I am not entirely certain how this changed over this period and whether Tokugawa, Oda, or Toyotomi upheld the Ashikaga position, but would appreciate someone with more knowledge of this subject than I to offer up their thoughts. So that's why I have the shogun's hall as a capturable objective.

There is definitely some logic in your suggestion to use resource pairs. As with other feudal societies, I suppose control of people is more important than land. I would imagine this is even more so in a country as mountainous as Japan where resources are not evenly spread across the terrain. And it WOULD be a way to even out the bonuses across the map and eliminate fictive clan "continents". It would also add more and diverse bonuses. I am a little afraid of cluttering up the map, however, and I am worried adding resources might do that. I'll have to see how this would work on the map and maybe put it to a vote.
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Jidai v0.1/v0.2 - POLL

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:46 am

skepticCS wrote:The shogunate had existed for centuries before the Sengoku period. In fact, the Onin War, beginning in 1467 that seems to be generally recognized as initiating the Sengoku Jidai, was started over control of the the existing shogunate.


Oh wow, I was completely wrong here then... carry on then :D
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Jidai v0.1/v0.2 - POLL

Postby skepticCS on Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:50 am

natty_dread wrote:
skepticCS wrote:The shogunate had existed for centuries before the Sengoku period. In fact, the Onin War, beginning in 1467 that seems to be generally recognized as initiating the Sengoku Jidai, was started over control of the the existing shogunate.


Oh wow, I was completely wrong here then... carry on then :D


No worries, mate. Feel free to call me out on any inaccuracies you notice. I'll just as likely be wrong as right most of the time. :D
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Jidai v0.1/v0.2 - POLL

Postby natty dread on Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:13 am

Yeah... well perhaps my misconception was because the shogunate had far less power before the tokugawa era... Before the tokugawa, the daimyo were pretty much independent. Afterwards, well... if the shogun would say to the daimyo "go commit seppuku" the daimyo would be shit out of luck :D
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Jidai v0.1/v0.2 - POLL

Postby skepticCS on Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:15 pm

natty_dread wrote:Yeah... well perhaps my misconception was because the shogunate had far less power before the tokugawa era... Before the tokugawa, the daimyo were pretty much independent. Afterwards, well... if the shogun would say to the daimyo "go commit seppuku" the daimyo would be shit out of luck :D


And THAT kinda power is a great thing to fight for...AND a great foundation for CC map ;)
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Re: Japan:Sengoku Jidai v0.1/v0.2 - POLL

Postby skepticCS on Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:19 am

Click image to enlarge.
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v0.21

I'm currently running with natty_dread's suggestion to add a resource element to the map. I added two main "resources": manpower and mines. I also developed a symbol and plan to incorporate farmland into the mix, but the end result saw the map way too cluttered (in my opinion), leaving little room for province names and such. Though It's not represented here, I delimited a six-territory "sphere of influence" around each castle. I used this area as a basis for where to place resources. Basically, each castle has relatively easy access to two manpower territories early on. Expansion beyond that (assuming a full map of 8 players) will require them to content with their neighbors. Mines were placed on two "neutral" territories on the south and north sides of the island. These territories are not officially in the sphere of influence of any one clan, though it is probably obvious that certain clans could get to the mines easier than others. For that reason, I demanded that a player control 3 manpower before they can gain the mine bonus. That way, even if a player quickly takes the mine, no benefit will be received until they actually go out and conquer manpower from other daimyo.

I added a bonus of +6 for any player holding the shogun's hall and 10 manpower. Essentially, a player in this position has conquered more than half of the island is firmly controls the shogunate, even if there are detractors. The way I expect this to play out is that two players eventually emerge strong in the north and south and they jockey over control of the imperial palace and the two manpower units in the central region of the map. However, I imagine some players will secure territories on the opposite side of the island BEFORE going for the imperial palace and plenty will ignore the palace altogether in favor of gunning for their opponents, but I wanted to give players some incentive to go for the objectives if they are so inclined.

The tax collector bonus is one of those incentives. I was also thinking of adding another bonus related to the court nobles (hold court nobles + 3 castles = 3 armies). I'm not sure what to do with the advisor and regalia territories. Right now they are simply more buffers between the gate and the ninja.

Speaking of the ninja, I will be moving its connection so that it can only be accessed after going through the empress (entirely a gameplay concern, no historical basis that I know of).

Finally, the big change is the addition of a victory condition. I will probably up the castle requirement to 6, but other than that, I have no changes to that element of the map. Any thoughts?
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