[GP/UI] Anti Fog Spoils

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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby Qwert on Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:45 pm

I dont understand fully what you mean by the last part, but to clarify, if you cash spoils on clear fog option. the log will list what regions you held, as it always does, and that will inform players of what sites you can see, if they want to rifle through the log. If there is a way to hide that info as well, that would be great too.

You understand correct- need someon to give answer on that. Hide territory names after use a card,will great addition to these sugestion.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby AAFitz on Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:01 pm

qwert wrote:
I dont understand fully what you mean by the last part, but to clarify, if you cash spoils on clear fog option. the log will list what regions you held, as it always does, and that will inform players of what sites you can see, if they want to rifle through the log. If there is a way to hide that info as well, that would be great too.

You understand correct- need someon to give answer on that. Hide territory names after use a card,will great addition to these sugestion.



It definitely could be. this one could use some discussion. On the one hand, it makes the spoils more important, but at the other, knowing what areas someone can see, is a positive thing too, because it requires you to avoid those areas, which in a way, can add to the fun...

I could argue it either way. My instinct would be knowing what areas were fogged would be better in the long run. But the idea of having invisible spy's is nice too.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby yeti_c on Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:37 am

AndyDufresne wrote:You should add more smileys to your posts yeti. :)


--Andy


That might imply that I was being sarcastic though?!

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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby Qwert on Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:18 am

It definitely could be. this one could use some discussion. On the one hand, it makes the spoils more important, but at the other, knowing what areas someone can see, is a positive thing too, because it requires you to avoid those areas, which in a way, can add to the fun...

I could argue it either way. My instinct would be knowing what areas were fogged would be better in the long run. But the idea of having invisible spy's is nice too.

Apsolutly-these give two option-visible for all players,and visible only for card user.

im more for second option, its more interesting,and more secret. ;) Like assasin. ;)
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby yeti_c on Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:52 am

Definitely agree with Qwery...

With the cards in the log option - then BOB would be able to read it all up and tell you who can see what...

Not knowing what people can see would be ace.

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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby AAFitz on Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:06 am

yeti_c wrote:Definitely agree with Qwery...

With the cards in the log option - then BOB would be able to read it all up and tell you who can see what...

Not knowing what people can see would be ace.

C.


It certainly has its benefits. its just a little more coding to hide them I would think. and coupled with flat rate, or escalating, not knowing which regions are visible to the enemy, may just give the cards too much power. I agree it would be a more interesting feature, and the option of see it in the log or not, is a nice option, but that adds another option to the option, so that doesnt seem worth it.

I like the idea of secret spys, but being able to see them, even with bob, does not change the fact that people will see where you are, and knowing what they can see really does add more to the game than not. If you dont know what they can see, you have to assume they can see everything, so there is little you can do to counter it. If however you know where the cleared areas are, you can actually use those to your advantage, and avoid them like mine fields and possibly as mines themselves.

On the turn that it turns fog, youll see any stack on it too, and commit it to memory, possibly, but can assume that stack will be elsewhere.

I think the key to making this workable is making it easiest to implement and still retaining the use. It absolutely has to be coupled with flat and escalating, to be worth it, so another option after that would seem impossible, a fog for spoils just doesnt seem like its worth it. Not hiding the spoils is how its already logged, so that wouldnt change anything there... not that I imagine that is difficult to code in.

Keeping them fogged does make it more useful, but maybe too useful...but either way, it will allow for some interesting strategy. But before assuming they have to be fogged, just imagine knowing where the spy satellites are, and how you can adjust your strategy to use them to your advantage. Now imagine playing, and knowing any territory could be seen. It simply doesnt allow for alot of strategy beyond spreading out your forces...if seeing a stack will change things. In a perfect world, both would be an option, but I think we'd be lucky to see this one anyways, so another option for the option, especially since its only fog for spoils option, seems unlikely, but that really is a programmers area of expertise. Im only guessing based on how I see things set up right now.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby Qwert on Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:17 am

if Assasin option work,so these will also work,right?
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby redpine on Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:54 pm

Excellent idea. Clean it up, modify it, and repost it in a new topic.

Heres my two cents on what to submit:

1. Add Raise Fog, Clear Fog, Toggle Fog, Spy Fog and All Types to the list of spoils types.

2. Make all spoils types compatible with eachother, allowing combinations like escalating clear fog nuclear spoils. (Spy on the country you just nuked? Whatever. Not selecting a spoils type would be the equivalent of ´no spoils.´)

3. Raise fog adds fog to the relevant territories from the perspective of all players. Clear fog removes the fog, from the perspective of all players. Toggle Fog makes fogged territories unfogged and unfogged territories fogged. All Types means blue cards raise fog, green cards clear fog, and red cards spy fog. Spy fog allows you, and only you, to see through the fog of the relevant territories permanently - regardless of whether fog is raised or cleared there later.

4. Finally, to idiot proof things, do not allow players to select more than one of the five fog spoils options, or select clear fog for non fog games. Each individual fog option is still compatible with each valid combination of the existing spoils options (nuclear, escalating, flat rate, no bonus.)
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby Qwert on Sat Mar 06, 2010 6:48 pm

Excellent idea. Clean it up, modify it, and repost it in a new topic.

Heres my two cents on what to submit:

1. Add Raise Fog, Clear Fog, Toggle Fog, Spy Fog and All Types to the list of spoils types.

2. Make all spoils types compatible with eachother, allowing combinations like escalating clear fog nuclear spoils. (Spy on the country you just nuked? Whatever. Not selecting a spoils type would be the equivalent of ´no spoils.´)

3. Raise fog adds fog to the relevant territories from the perspective of all players. Clear fog removes the fog, from the perspective of all players. Toggle Fog makes fogged territories unfogged and unfogged territories fogged. All Types means blue cards raise fog, green cards clear fog, and red cards spy fog. Spy fog allows you, and only you, to see through the fog of the relevant territories permanently - regardless of whether fog is raised or cleared there later.

4. Finally, to idiot proof things, do not allow players to select more than one of the five fog spoils options, or select clear fog for non fog games. Each individual fog option is still compatible with each valid combination of the existing spoils options (nuclear, escalating, flat rate, no bonus.)

:-s
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby AAFitz on Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:15 pm

qwert wrote:if Assasin option work,so these will also work,right?


I honestly dont know. Ive been trying to keep it simple assuming it would be the easiest to implement, while still giving the benefit of the type.

Typically Lack custom fits these type options to what fits the game best. No doubt more options is better, but if its prohibitively time consuming, it may just not be worth the time.

Assassin is an entirely different type of play. clear spoils is a different kind of spoils, and we would want it to be available on assassin games, and not exclusive from them.

What I will do, is add the options suggested to the original suggestion. then the optimum choice can be chosen which fits the server best, if its even chosen to be implemented at all...which is hardly guaranteed, except the idea does have a sort of appeal to it, that I suspect will get it looked at seriously at some point at the very least.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby stahrgazer on Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:22 pm

You could always have the "nuc spoils + nobonus clearfog" option make a reverse-spy effect :lol:
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby yeti_c on Sun Mar 07, 2010 9:27 am

Sod making things simple - let's make thing much better.

The fog of cards is a good thing too - cos then the code could be reused for a more advanced fogginess that many people have called for in the past.

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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby AAFitz on Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:48 pm

yeti_c wrote:Sod making things simple - let's make thing much better.

The fog of cards is a good thing too - cos then the code could be reused for a more advanced fogginess that many people have called for in the past.

C.


well, its more to keep them simple to get them actually installed. If its possible to add more, than obviously go for it. You know the code more than most, so if you think its doable or worth it, than Ill certainly be happy to see more intricate settings :D

But I also wouldnt have a problem seeing a simple version installed sooner, and a more complex one with options later, as opposed waiting for the super version.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby Gypsys Kiss on Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:05 am

AAFitz wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Sod making things simple - let's make thing much better.

The fog of cards is a good thing too - cos then the code could be reused for a more advanced fogginess that many people have called for in the past.

C.


well, its more to keep them simple to get them actually installed. If its possible to add more, than obviously go for it. You know the code more than most, so if you think its doable or worth it, than Ill certainly be happy to see more intricate settings :D

But I also wouldnt have a problem seeing a simple version installed sooner, and a more complex one with options later, as opposed waiting for the super version.


Keeping it simple just to have it implemented is not a good way to go. Would you be happy with a half baked version of ths idea implemented or the full blood and guts version?

I like the 'secret spy' version, where only the player using the spoil knows the identity of the territory. I also like the 'double agent' variety, where the spoil gets logged as normal. So, in general, I like the idea. :)
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby ask me2 on Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:18 pm

That does not quit make sense I mean what if it was no fog? Would you not be able to play with these spoils?
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby Qwert on Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:36 pm

by ask me2 » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:18 pm

That does not quit make sense I mean what if it was no fog? Would you not be able to play with these spoils?

I dont understand,why will you play no fog with Anti Fog spoils? These cards in these gameplay option will dont have any effect :lol:
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby ask me2 on Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:19 pm

qwert wrote:
by ask me2 » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:18 pm

That does not quit make sense I mean what if it was no fog? Would you not be able to play with these spoils?

I dont understand,why will you play no fog with Anti Fog spoils? These cards in these gameplay option will dont have any effect :lol:

That's what I'm saying..
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby AAFitz on Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:58 pm

Gypsys Kiss wrote:
AAFitz wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Sod making things simple - let's make thing much better.

The fog of cards is a good thing too - cos then the code could be reused for a more advanced fogginess that many people have called for in the past.

C.


well, its more to keep them simple to get them actually installed. If its possible to add more, than obviously go for it. You know the code more than most, so if you think its doable or worth it, than Ill certainly be happy to see more intricate settings :D

But I also wouldnt have a problem seeing a simple version installed sooner, and a more complex one with options later, as opposed waiting for the super version.


Keeping it simple just to have it implemented is not a good way to go. Would you be happy with a half baked version of ths idea implemented or the full blood and guts version?

I like the 'secret spy' version, where only the player using the spoil knows the identity of the territory. I also like the 'double agent' variety, where the spoil gets logged as normal. So, in general, I like the idea. :)


Says you. Ive been at CC for 3.5 years. Many, many, many options have been simple when started and later improved. CC is and always will be a work in progress. I have no problem if lack gives another option right now, and then adds options to it later. It is how CC has evolved to where it is now.

Further, I would be perfectly happy to see it work with the basic option for a while, as opposed to waiting an additional year or so, for a more complicated one, when in a year or so, I might see the more complicated one also anyways.

Im not at all suggesting a stupid version. The version would be quite effective, and quite fun. It just doesnt require an entire rework of the spoils as does the more intricate options. Further, implementing a basic version, allows decisions to be better made when the time comes for the more detailed one. Its not settling, its practicing.

In any case, Im simply presenting options. Obviously lack knows what he has time for, and what can work. Im just giving him some options to choose from. All things being equal, Id say make every option ever suggested an option tomorrow, but that is not realistic.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby Artic patrol on Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:48 am

Interesting...
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby yeti_c on Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:21 am

AAFitz wrote:CC is and always will be a work in progress.


Er - this implies that there is work - and progress here...

C.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby grifftron on Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:16 am

Not sure if this was said yet or not.. but here is a thought if it wasn't, you guys might not give a rip but its just an idea

You guys have the Anti Fog deal going on for Fog games, why not make these spoils work for both fog and non fog games, kinda like how nukes work for every type of game, even when we don't want them (because we end up having to nuke ourselves). Fog, in Sunny games could add fog to the board for all players... might get kinda annoying but just throwing it out there guys

-griff
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby yeti_c on Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:22 pm

grifftron wrote:Not sure if this was said yet or not.. but here is a thought if it wasn't, you guys might not give a rip but its just an idea

You guys have the Anti Fog deal going on for Fog games, why not make these spoils work for both fog and non fog games, kinda like how nukes work for every type of game, even when we don't want them (because we end up having to nuke ourselves). Fog, in Sunny games could add fog to the board for all players... might get kinda annoying but just throwing it out there guys

-griff


That could work...

C.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby fumandomuerte on Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:22 pm

yeti_c wrote:
grifftron wrote:Not sure if this was said yet or not.. but here is a thought if it wasn't, you guys might not give a rip but its just an idea

You guys have the Anti Fog deal going on for Fog games, why not make these spoils work for both fog and non fog games, kinda like how nukes work for every type of game, even when we don't want them (because we end up having to nuke ourselves). Fog, in Sunny games could add fog to the board for all players... might get kinda annoying but just throwing it out there guys

-griff


That could work...

C.


Brilliant idea, like throwing smoke bombs over the field.
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Re: Anti Fog spoils.

Postby AAFitz on Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:15 pm

fumandomuerte wrote:
yeti_c wrote:
grifftron wrote:Not sure if this was said yet or not.. but here is a thought if it wasn't, you guys might not give a rip but its just an idea

You guys have the Anti Fog deal going on for Fog games, why not make these spoils work for both fog and non fog games, kinda like how nukes work for every type of game, even when we don't want them (because we end up having to nuke ourselves). Fog, in Sunny games could add fog to the board for all players... might get kinda annoying but just throwing it out there guys

-griff


That could work...

C.


Brilliant idea, like throwing smoke bombs over the field.


Kind of astonished this is the first time it was brought up. Great idea, especially if it works with flat, escalating, too.

Ill add it to the first post
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Recon spoils for fog game

Postby Grifter on Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:40 am

Concise description:
Add Recon spoils to be used for fog games. This allows the player to spy on other players to see who owns what

Specifics/Details:
  • When a recon spoil is used it would tell the player the colour and strength of the territory
  • It would also tell the colour but not the strength of any territories adjacent to it. Spies are good but not that good
  • If the player owns the territory then the spoil is useless
  • Bonus idea: allow a player to use just 1 recon spoil or all 5 at once regardless of color. Makes the game more dynamic. Not sure if this is technically possible.

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • Add a dimension of spying on the other players.
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