Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 ::REVAMP::

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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:58 pm

What if a territory on either end of the rail could use the rail to move troops and attack the end station, similar to the use of rails in the late 19th and early 20th century?

The numbers are a good addition and I see that the only major problems you have are the micronations, like Azuran, Illania and Alus. The islands are unrecognizable with numbers, but perhaps those could be moved off the island, similar to what I did on Italian Unification. I'd highly recommend redrawing the micronation borders or doing away with them altogether.

The small map is overly cramped, perhaps with a little photoshopping you could expand the size of the land and shrink the sea some. I don't know how you're going to fit he rails on there as well.

I'd also like to see some sort of resources or factories, rails are a good start though.

I'd also like to suggest that maybe, given the graphical feel of the map, that industrial era might not be the best theme for this map. Maps like Research and Conquer carry the industrial theme much better, with a steampunk sort of feel to the graphics. This map speaks more like tribal or ancient empires to me. A land with a more mythical quality than coal and iron... plus the sail ship, versus steamers, helps to drive this feel. Perhaps you ought to take it in that direction?
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby porkenbeans on Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:20 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:What if a territory on either end of the rail could use the rail to move troops and attack the end station, similar to the use of rails in the late 19th and early 20th century?

The numbers are a good addition and I see that the only major problems you have are the micronations, like Azuran, Illania and Alus. The islands are unrecognizable with numbers, but perhaps those could be moved off the island, similar to what I did on Italian Unification. I'd highly recommend redrawing the micronation borders or doing away with them altogether.

The small map is overly cramped, perhaps with a little photoshopping you could expand the size of the land and shrink the sea some. I don't know how you're going to fit he rails on there as well.

I'd also like to see some sort of resources or factories, rails are a good start though.

I'd also like to suggest that maybe, given the graphical feel of the map, that industrial era might not be the best theme for this map. Maps like Research and Conquer carry the industrial theme much better, with a steampunk sort of feel to the graphics. This map speaks more like tribal or ancient empires to me. A land with a more mythical quality than coal and iron... plus the sail ship, versus steamers, helps to drive this feel. Perhaps you ought to take it in that direction?
Nice eye IH,
I agree with that assessment. The soft pastel watercolor, does not lend itself very well to an industrial theme.
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby The Bison King on Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:47 pm

I dig, instead of rail road tracks, Trade routes. Maybe a little reminiscent of Roman roads in places. I like the idea of the idea of interconectability with the ends of the roads. I might ad in a few stops in a few places like Iskul and Crygnotica (under "+5").

If I am understanding he correctly...

The Rail "Road or route" Bonuses work in this fashion:

To obtain the bonus you must hold all territories along the path of the rail "road"

Any territory along the path of the road with a circle on it can attack any other territory along the path of the route with a circle on it.

I need to find a way of condensing that for the final.

I like this rule a lot. There is only one problem I have with it. I want Dalmus to still be able to act as a barrier. What's the point of having a barrier between two bonuses if you can just go right past it?

However that is a problem that is easily fixed by just redrawing the path with a break with it, and have a little note about it. I'll do a new draft soon, it'll make sense. So really I am quite content with this.

However, I am still convinced that there are too many road bonuses and that one or two from the west side should be removed. I'm thinking either one of the ones that runs through Caprinthia, or the far North path (The one along Solonabirsk and Skyatica worth +5).
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby mattattam on Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:02 am

I like what IH said. Having the ends attack each other is a nice add on to the rails or routes I should say.

I think you should remove the +5 route in the north and move the +2 rail that runs from [Arleus - Denmarn] run from [Denmarn - Northern Frontier] instead. That way you have a rail in every country and it doesn't take up as much space as the +5 rail. Also it wont get in the way of the names of the territories up north.

Lastly I think your +1 route [Hellengar - Theraland] is too low of a bonus. It runs through 5 territories at the moment. I think you should make this +2 and I don't think it should run through Iskul. 4 territories is enough and if you don't have it go through Iskul it won't block out the name of the Tuskaroja territory.
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby The Bison King on Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:04 pm

I want Dalmus to still be able to act as a barrier. What's the point of having a barrier between two bonuses if you can just go right past it?

However that is a problem that is easily fixed by just redrawing the path with a break with it, and have a little note about it. I'll do a new draft soon, it'll make sense. So really I am quite content with this.


Scratch that I was being an idiot. Here is a better solution. Each territory with a circle on it can only attack the next territory along the path with a circle on it. Also I'll change the circle to be representative of a fort or castle.

I think you should remove the +5 route in the north and move the +2 rail that runs from [Arleus - Denmarn] run from [Denmarn - Northern Frontier] instead. That way you have a rail in every country and it doesn't take up as much space as the +5 rail. Also it wont get in the way of the names of the territories up north.


That's pretty good but instead of ending it at Denmarn I think it might be better to end it in Northern Caprinthia. I'll probably drop it down to +3 or +4 If I do that.

Lastly I think your +1 route [Hellengar - Theraland] is too low of a bonus. It runs through 5 territories at the moment. I think you should make this +2 and I don't think it should run through Iskul. 4 territories is enough and if you don't have it go through Iskul it won't block out the name of the Tuskaroja territory.


I agree that it should not run through Iskul. I disagree with it needing to be more than +1. My reason behind this is because if someone succeeds in taking the entire eastern half of the map (from Far West Tytheria, to Itherania) They can hold a +5, +2, +3, +3, +2 bonus for only 4 territories. +1 is enough. In fact I am also strongly considering removing the path from Thessisimess to Chunjaris, and haveing the remaining path (Chunjaris to Dalmus to Theraland, be dropped down to +1 as well.

Ok, I just had an idea, this is all very stream of consciousness so bear with me.

In the East: the norther pass should run from Hellengar to Tuskaroja to Itheria, to Theraland and should be worth +2. (I changed my mind that's a good idea because...)

The southern pass through the desert will only run from Chunjaris, to Dalmus, to Therraland, and be worth +1

I think this is a perfect compromise.
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby mattattam on Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:09 pm

I think you should make the changes so we can see it on the new map. Then I can give you better feedback. It's a lot of things to visualize at once.
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby The Bison King on Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:31 pm

Understood, I will when I get the chance. I probably won't have time till the weekend.

So if there are any idea's please speak up, It'll help me limit the number of drafts I have to redraw.
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby mattattam on Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:36 pm

In the East: the norther pass should run from Hellengar to Tuskaroja to Itheria, to Theraland and should be worth +2. (I changed my mind that's a good idea because...)

The southern pass through the desert will only run from Chunjaris, to Dalmus, to Therraland, and be worth +1


I agree with both of these suggestions

That's pretty good but instead of ending it at Denmarn I think it might be better to end it in Northern Caprinthia. I'll probably drop it down to +3 or +4 If I do that.


I like this too. I think it should be a +3 bonus unless you want to add one more territory and make it +4
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby army of nobunaga on Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:29 pm

Im just going to toss thiss out there... I dont like "rails" on a "fantasy" map...
Why not make them dragon run hunting areas? or Magic Fae lines. Or make each point druid temples and if the run is connected it is a bonus.

Rails just dont fit the theme to me.

I do like the map though man.
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby The Bison King on Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:33 pm

instead of rail road tracks, Trade routes. Maybe a little reminiscent of Roman roads in places


About to play a game this very moment to test this out I'll let you know how it does.
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby natty dread on Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:21 am

Now that's dedication lol ;)
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Re: Thyseneal "new fantasy map"

Postby The Bison King on Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:27 pm

Update, The game last night went well. Actually it went really well, the rail bonuses turned out to be a real hit. We played with a relatively different version than the one I last posted. Some things were the same but the northern rail bonuses were totally different. The way we played was that any territory with a circle on it (station/city/fort/caste/druidic warp point, or whatever I'll get into that later) can attack any territory next to it (like and normal game) and the next territory along the path with a circle on it. This worked extremely well. It forced players to reinforce carefully, and to try to expand to meet this points for their own security. That being said I was also glad to see that it didn't command the way you had to play the game. Most player expanded in a very natural fashion and didn't feel forced to have to dogmatically fight over the rails. I didn't any way. Also the player who one started from the center (they started by taking and holding Livonia) which is pretty uncommon for any map, so I am real happy about that.

The only thing that didn't seem to work was making the islands start neutral. This made them really unappealing to take and no one really did, so I'll probably just start them as regular territories.

As for theme, I know some people are wanting dragons and dwarves and elfs and all that stuff. But the truth is that I'm just not into that kind of thing and have no real interest in writing "dwarven cave of wonders" on this map. When I original labeled this "New fantasy map" it only meant "fantasy" as in "Not Earth" or "Fictional" and kind of regret calling it that. And I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with being into that kind of stuff it's just not my bag.

I'm still really into calling them rail bonuses, because...

A) Trains are cool, I like trains.

B) It makes more sense, for trains to move faster.

But, I can sympathize with the claim that the maps aesthetic and color scheme does not really lend itself to a steam punk/industrial era. If enough people agree with this notion I am willing to pull it back and call the circles cities, or castles, and the paths roads, trade routes, or aqueducts. So trains Vs. roads Vs aqueducts: if you have an opinion voice it, this will effect the final product. Like I said though I'm still gunning for trains.

I'm going to work on the new draft this weekend and hopefully have it up (along with the updated design brief) by Sunday or Monday.

I've been putting a lot of work into this and I'm really hoping that this will move forward soon : )
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Re: Thyseneal

Postby MarshalNey on Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:46 pm

You might consider changing the title of the thread- get the work 'fantasy' out of there. I think it'll be an ongoing issue otherwise. EDIT: nm, you changed it as I posted-heh.

Visually, I don't like the look of the rails. They seem to clash with the soothing blends. But I think that can be fixed. You should keep the idea of trains, it's your world for goodness sake.

I like the thematic visuals otherwise, the ships in the water and the teasers that talk about Thysenal (although I think they could be sharpened up some, but again that's in the future).

Gameplay-wise, I like the addition of the rails and the bonus tweaking.

Anyway, I hope you're not feeling pressured by anyone to change the map from your original concept. It seems the rail idea is one that you like, but don't feel like you need to 'complicate' the gameplay just to satisfy people.

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Re: Thyseneal 1.1

Postby The Bison King on Sat May 01, 2010 11:40 pm

Image

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Forget Sunday or Monday, I got this shit done fast! So I guess I would call this version 1.1? I'm not really sure how it works.

Any way here's whats different.

Road bonuses obviously, hopefully they are clearly explained enough on the map.

I dropped the Tytherian bonus down to 4 because that road bonus sits entirely in. So once you take the whole bonus it's ultimately worth 6. Might be too much but maybe not. No one ever held the bonus last game.

I brought Ifnal back up to 4 because now the roads attack both Arleus and Ifnal it's harder to hold than it looks.
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Re: Thyseneal

Postby The Bison King on Sat May 01, 2010 11:43 pm

I hope you're not feeling pressured by anyone to change the map from your original concept. It seems the rail idea is one that you like, but don't feel like you need to 'complicate' the gameplay just to satisfy people.


Thanks for the concern, but I am very pleased with how the roads turned out. It's not necessarily something I would have added on my own but I'm glad I did.
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Re: Thyseneal

Postby army of nobunaga on Sun May 02, 2010 12:18 am

Im the minority here... And I hope you dont get mad. But you had one hellova map till you stuck a train in it.

seems like a gimmick to make a few ppl happy to me.

Its a little cheapened to me. You have a great map, great art, great bonus and region structure, and someone said add a fricking train so you did.

Id like to see some strippers in it.. can you add those?

anyway man. gl with the map
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Re: Thyseneal

Postby mattattam on Sun May 02, 2010 1:47 am

I do like the additions of the roads. :) It adds a different dynamic to the map that makes it more interesting.

My feedback on this version is I think there is too many road combinations. I feel how it is now puts more focus on the roads then on the countries. I think this could easily be resolved by taken away 1 or 2 of the road bonus's. Any 1 of the 3 in the southeast part would do. I think 6 road bonus's is enough. You may be able to get away with 7 though. Right now it's a bit much.
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Re: Thyseneal

Postby The Bison King on Sun May 02, 2010 3:20 pm

Ok, I posted the new design brief.

army of nobunaga wrote:Im the minority here... And I hope you dont get mad. But you had one hellova map till you stuck a train in it.

seems like a gimmick to make a few ppl happy to me.

Its a little cheapened to me. You have a great map, great art, great bonus and region structure, and someone said add a fricking train so you did.

Id like to see some strippers in it.. can you add those?

anyway man. gl with the map


Thanks for the brutally honest input. The way I see it is this:

I'm glad that people like the original map, It's a good map, it doesn't need rail bonuses to be fun. However, I spent a great deal of time working out these road bonuses. They might look a bit complicated but I think once you start playing you'll find them pretty intuitive. They're good too, I'm sorry If not every one is into them. I can't make everyone happy and it seems that the more I try too the more I alienate people. If you guys want to hold a vote I would be more than happy to. I think that is a fair and democratic way to resolve this. Could someone please tell me how to hold a vote?.
Last edited by The Bison King on Sun May 02, 2010 6:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Thyseneal

Postby natty dread on Sun May 02, 2010 3:24 pm

Could someone please tell me how to hold a vote?


Edit your first post. In the lower edge of the page is a tab that says "poll creation" click that and enter the poll title and options and other stuff.
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Re: Thyseneal

Postby The Bison King on Sun May 02, 2010 3:38 pm

Thank you
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Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

Postby Neato Missile on Sun May 02, 2010 11:44 pm

As one of the dudes involved with the "real world testing" of the map, I'm definitely casting a pro-road vote. It gives the whole game a much faster, more dynamic vibe, and while that may not be everyone's bag I think it works great here.
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Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

Postby natty dread on Mon May 03, 2010 2:02 am

A lot of the times, during the foundry process, a map changes drastically from the idea it was in the beginning. This is usually a good thing and the map is usually better off in the end... check out some quenched maps how they looked when they were first posted.

What I mean is you shouldn't be afraid of experimenting, adding new things, trying out even far-out stuff for your map. It will all pay off in the end.
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Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

Postby Industrial Helix on Mon May 03, 2010 10:05 am

Neato Missile wrote:As one of the dudes involved with the "real world testing" of the map, I'm definitely casting a pro-road vote. It gives the whole game a much faster, more dynamic vibe, and while that may not be everyone's bag I think it works great here.


Good to know, it's nice to have some sort of Alpha testing going on.

I've got a question for Bison King though. Do you have a wider story behind any of these empires or places? Like have you written stories or a basic history?
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Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

Postby The Bison King on Tue May 04, 2010 7:00 pm

Do you have a wider story behind any of these empires or places? Like have you written stories or a basic history?


Dangerous question

As for basic history.

The Tytherian Empire is the oldest empire in the world. It started in the southwest peninsula, which is also the birthplace of the most widely practiced religion of the Occident (the orient being the eastern un-shown region). Its first incarnation covered the entire southwest peninsula and a little bit of Morovia. Its second incarnation covered half of what is now Tytheria and all of what is now Morovia. Its third reincarnation covered all of current Tytheria, Tuskaroja, Morovia and the southern peninsula of Livonia. However, over the years various tribes and kingdoms pushed the Tytherians out of the western continent all together. Eventually it collapsed under it's own weight and rebuilt itself back to what is now depicted in the map.

During the first and second incarnations of the Empire most other civilizations were little more than tribes or city states. During the third incarnation most cultures had developed into kingdoms. The fourth era (depicted by the map) a 1300-1700ish type parallel, is now the age of Empires. Most of the civilizations at this put have either developed into a large empire or have been swallowed up by one.

Ifnal- Swampy and moorish, is a little behind the times. It is a collective of independent kingdoms that pledge a loose allegiance to a common king. It is largely isolated.

Arleus, Chancella, Azuran- Idependant kingdoms, that aren't especially powerful or influential.

Caprinthia- Sits on a large and fertile plain. It is large, wealthy, and very powerful. although ruled by an all powerful Emperor, it is split up into many small provinces that used to be independent kingdoms,. It's only true bane is the fact that it has an unimpressive navy due to it's small coastline.

Morovia- the hot and dry region of the southern part of the continent. Ruled by a king, with less than supreme authority, who dives out control of the smaller regions to various Dukes and Lords. Jenua, Alus, and Ilannia are separate countries, and cultures but have been conquered by the Morovians at this point.

Livonia- Most of the population lives on the southern peninsula while the upper peninsula remains largely woodlands. Ruled by a King from the grand peacetime capital of Illarulia (a walled city that sits on and Island on a canal) the capital moves to the peninsula on the Rowamar territory during war time. It has a powerful navy.

Solonabirsk- Cold and shitty. Lots of peasants. Most of the population is in the extreme south or along the coastline. Most of the land up north is just for show.

Skyatica- A feudal society ruled by a king and many lords. It has a unique culture. Most of the population and cities are in the peninsula. the northern inland area's have been recently added to the empire. The various indigenous cultures of those regions were easily conquered and subjugated.

Itherania- Itheria, Theraland and Sarle all share the same cultural roots, and were once part of he same ancient empire. Since that empires collapse they have become separate kingdoms.

The Desert States- The cross roads of the continent this area is home to much trading. Cancallus is weak with no real military presence. It is ruled by a tribal council. Narula is high up in the mountains and has a unique culture and religion. It is ruled by Monks. Tuskaroja is the most powerful nation in the block and the only nation with a formidable army. Iskul has no military but is an influential mercantile state.

Tytheria- has a large population with many diverse cultures. It is ruled by an all powerful Emperor, whose right is to expand the empire as he sees fit. In fact any Emperor who fails to expand the empire is generally viewed as a bad emperor. It is also the naval authority.

Well there you go. I hope I didn't overwhelm you, but I don't expect most people to read that. Maybe we could release a textbook that goes along with the map :lol: If you have any questions about what I wrote up there just ask,?
Last edited by The Bison King on Sat May 08, 2010 12:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Thyseneal: *Poll please vote*

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed May 05, 2010 9:10 am

No, I thought it was rather interesting. It shows how you put thought into each of the regions and it really helps to make the map appear more than a collection of territories.

If Tuskaroja is the Naval power, why does it only connect to one territory by sea. Logically, it should connect to the most territories by sea. Perhaps even, one way attacks.

Itherania - reunite the old kingdom for a bonus? Similar to the Holy Roman Empire goal of reuniting the Roman Empire?

Solonabirsk - ought to have a lower bonus because its so cold and shitty.

Dual capital bonus for Livonia? Also more sea routes of 1 way attacks?

Carpinthia makes lots of sense. Strong land army so high bonus, though perhaps the border should be reduced by a territory to make it more defensible. You don't want it to become an Asia on the map that is never utilized.

It's groupings like Ifnal that are going to be taken advantage of to win the game. It's a quick and small bonus with a high yield of 4... which is way to high. I'd say two at best. Perhaps given its coast line the Naval Powers could be able to make their presence known there?

Anyway, story helps a lot. Before it was a bit like looking at a map of Middle Earth without knowing the Lord of the Rings books were out there. I think the map ought to reflect the type of empires and kingdoms it portrays a little bit better. For example, Tuskaroja as a purported naval power with one measly sea connection.... stuff like that ought to be fixed to reflect the story.
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