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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby natty dread on Tue May 25, 2010 5:19 am

It's been a while since I've taken a good peek at this... looking good so far! However I'd like the cities to be more important in the gameplay.

Currently you need 5 of them to get a bonus. That makes them the hardest bonus to acquire... you could easily increase their bonus a bit. I'd suggest making a dynamic scale bonus for the cities - similar to seas on my lunar map. Something like:

+3 for 5 cities
+7 for 10 cities
+11 for 15 cities
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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:32 pm

Hmm... i see what you mean. I think that I am stuck with a problem of wanting the cities to be very important to the map but then I have troubles with people starting with bonuses.

I hear you on this one and I'll play with it some. The trouble with a scale bonus is I don't have room! I'll see what I can do.

@It_oddball

1) You're right the British didn't do a whole lot except sit there. But they had the major potential to supply the whites, which the whites didn't take advantage of. But the idea is that this is where British Supplies are being dropped off, so you have to first obtain them (conquer the neutral) and then move them into the field of operations, ie reinforcements. So that's my thinking/reasoning on that, what do you think?

2) Well, i want the railways to illustrate a) the importance of Moscow in terms of connections and b) the fact that many of the white armies simply rode the railways into red territory and fought a battle rather than marched their way to the battle.

Something in terms of territory connections could be done to illustrate the connections, ie stretches of land extending in place of rail lines, but this would decrease the vital role that cities played. It would also make the land and marching, versus moving via rail, to be the same thing. Which is not what I wish to convey.

3) I'm gonna stick to as close an interpretation as possible given, hopefully, by Russians on the site. I'm not opposed to changing names even in Beta process.

@Jastnostj - The thing with Poland is that I don't want to get the Russo-Polish war too involved in the map, so hence the crop. I want to have it there to show that the Poles had an influence over the outcome of the war, but not enough to make Poland a major player in the map.

@ Evildim - The problem I have with using the commanders to unlock the high pop bonus is that I don't want commanders to start neutral. I want a player to be assigned a commander and take on that role the commander had during the war. But its a good point and one I shall think on... there's got to be a way to figure this out.

Other changes to the new version that I ought to mention: Ukraine is now a double dip bonus as it is high population territory as well. If a player takes the Ukraine nationalist route and succeeds in uniting the country against the Soviets, its gonn apay off big time, especially considering the British are there supplying as well.

One downside of this though is that the Ukraine might become the core area of conflict, rather than high pop zone Russia... perhaps they will be both equally an area of conflict. I dunno till Beta I suppose. Alternatively, it might portray the Ukrainian dilemma. Once a player looks to gain major troops for uniting the Ukraine, most players will gang up on that Ukrainian player... presuming they are astute enough. Then again, other players might just be dumb... thus reflecting the error a commander could have made about the Ukraine during the war. All in all, I think its a fair set up though, like all games, a lot depends on the player's ability.

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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby lt_oddball on Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:36 am

Industrial Helix wrote:.... So that's my thinking/reasoning on that, what do you think?




I am glad you give all aspects (design, gameplay, historical relevance) a very good thinking. I see the map is in skilled hands :mrgreen:
=D>
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Re: Russian Revolution 5/9 p. 1

Postby iancanton on Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:51 am

Industrial Helix wrote:2) The points that a commander attacks: should they start at a low number or perhaps neutral 1 or no difference at all?

Industrial Helix wrote:Hmm... i see what you mean. I think that I am stuck with a problem of wanting the cities to be very important to the map but then I have troubles with people starting with bonuses.

Industrial Helix wrote:@ Evildim - The problem I have with using the commanders to unlock the high pop bonus is that I don't want commanders to start neutral. I want a player to be assigned a commander and take on that role the commander had during the war. But its a good point and one I shall think on... there's got to be a way to figure this out.

let each region that a commander attacks be called an hq. for the cities or the high-pop areas to give bonuses, we can require that any commander-plus-hq combination is held.

since the 8 commanders are start positions, with open deployment elsewhere, each player is likely to have a slightly different total number of troops in the high-pop area. i cannot immediately see a way round this, unless we specify which regions start with each commander - many mapmakers like chance to have a greater role at the start. the imbalance in total troops might be the lesser of two evils, as long as each player starts with the same bonus.

a historical note: before 1954, crimea was part of russia, not of ukraine. perhaps u can exclude crimea from the ukraine bonus and have the british navy supply odessa instead of crimea?

The agenda of the session of the Presidium of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, which took place January 25, 1954, contained a question about the delivery of the Crimean region to the structure of the Ukrainian SSR. The discussion of the question took only 15 minutes. The participants of the meeting approved the decree, and the region was given away to Ukraine for free.

http://english.pravda.ru/russia/history/19-02-2009/107129-ussr_crimea_ukraine-0

ian. :)
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Re: Russian Revolution 6/2 p. 3

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:45 pm

1) I like it... I'll see what I can do about working it into the map.

2) Well, one possibility I was thinking of was that I could set the High Pop zone as having starting positions, that way it gets sorted at the beginning of the game evenly and outside the rest of the map. But then this presents a problem... the starting positions for the commanders would get grouped in with the high pop zone, destroying the each player gets a commander concept. I wish there was XML for creating specific starting positions for players :(

So regarding the High Pop zone, are the gameplay mods willing to accept that each drop will not be the same and there will be some variance?

I think that if themap stays as it is in regards to this, I can lower the high population zone reward and lower further the Low Pop zone reward so as to emphasize the Commanders, which each player gets a very equal distribution of. Would this be a fair compromise?

3) Interesting note about the Crimean... I'll make the change.

@It_Oddball - Thanks for the support!
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Re: Russian Revolution 6/2 p. 3

Postby iancanton on Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:55 am

Industrial Helix wrote:2) The points that a commander attacks: should they start at a low number or perhaps neutral 1 or no difference at all?

when doing all that cut-and-paste stuff, i didn't paste my answer to this question: neutral-1!

Industrial Helix wrote:So regarding the High Pop zone, are the gameplay mods willing to accept that each drop will not be the same and there will be some variance?

I think that if themap stays as it is in regards to this, I can lower the high population zone reward and lower further the Low Pop zone reward so as to emphasize the Commanders, which each player gets a very equal distribution of. Would this be a fair compromise?

in combination with neutral-1 starts for each hq and underlying neutral start positions for the commanders (so that no-one can start with a commander-and-hq pair, while the underlying neutrals stop someone from having more commanders than his opponents), i believe that lowering the high-pop and low-pop initial troops will lead to a start that is better, or at least no worse, than in dust bowl. i assume that the normal +1 for every 3 regions does not apply (the legend isn't clear on this).

ian. :)
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Re: Russian Revolution 6/2 p. 3

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:19 pm

1) ok.. that sounds good.
2) +1 for three regions does apply in the brown regions, see the middle left rule in the lower legend.

The next version of the map is gonna have some numbers on it to make the initial start obvious, stay tuned.
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Re: Russian Revolution 6/2 p. 3

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:15 pm

Alright, here's the new version:

The ONLY starting positions are the commanders. Each player gets one.
I also removed the Ukraine from double dippin in the high pop bonus... their regional bonus should be enough.

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Re: Russian Revolution 6/2 p. 3

Postby MarshalNey on Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:40 am

I don't have much to say other than... holy crap I moan to think that I'll have to wait months to play this map. The gameplay is looking very good.

I do have one question, more historical than anything I guess... the Czech Legion seized trains and used them to get around, or am I wrong? I'm basing this off of a vague memory of seeing an old photo of the Czechs with guns sprouting out of railcars. If that's correct, shouldn't they at least connect to a railroad somewhere?

EDIT: One other thing... it's a bit odd now that I think about it, that the Czechs seem to be less important than the British on this map, even though historically the British had far less impact on the actual fighting.
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Re: Russian Revolution 6/2 p. 3

Postby theBastard on Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:51 am

MarshalNey wrote:I do have one question, more historical than anything I guess... the Czech Legion seized trains and used them to get around, or am I wrong? I'm basing this off of a vague memory of seeing an old photo of the Czechs with guns sprouting out of railcars. If that's correct, shouldn't they at least connect to a railroad somewhere?


the question is from which year/years are this map. CzechoSlovak legion seized Transiberian rail, but mostly from Ural to Vladivostok.

EDIT: maybe there could by one way attack CzechoSlovak legion to Orenburg...?

Helix, just to know, are cities part of region bonuses? for example: Wilno in Poland, Kiev in Ukraina, Moscow in high population?

about Volhynia - I like your idea in German/Italian Unifications where "striped" territories are bonuses for two regions. did you think to do bonus for Poland/Ukraina +1 for both with Volhynia?
or Poland includes Volhynia, Ukraina, Ukraina includes Volhynia?
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Re: Russian Revolution 6/2 p. 3

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:13 pm

Ok, I've had some time to update this map and hopefully streamline some more.

Here's what has changed:
Removed 1 territory.

Got rid of the old City bonus system because those +whatever for whatever systems are a pain in the ass to evaluate when looking at a map and even worse if you don't have BOB. Autodeploy should work well enough as it represents the power of the Imperial arms depots and players face the logistics issue of moving them from the city to wherever the front is. As you will see, they're lightly guarded (neutral 2) as well, I chose such a low number because 1) that was the situation at the time and 2) it will put the cities quickly into the game.

Stalin, unlike his allies and enemies, faces 3 neutrals for his HQ given that his is the only city which is also an HQ. I tried shifting him to either side of the future Stalingrad, but it put him too close to another HQ.

I also added that rivers are impassable.

I also clarified that cities are not part of any regional bonus, cities bridge rivers and that cities are rail junctions as well.

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So, what do you think of the auto-deploy?
Should there be a reduction of territories? I'm thinking 1 from Ukraine and maybe two out of the High pop zone.
Does Stalin's situation make sense and still keep things somewhat even?
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Re: Russian Revolution 6/2 p. 3

Postby iancanton on Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:05 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Autodeploy should work well enough as it represents the power of the Imperial arms depots and players face the logistics issue of moving them from the city to wherever the front is. As you will see, they're lightly guarded (neutral 2) as well, I chose such a low number because 1) that was the situation at the time and 2) it will put the cities quickly into the game.

the auto-deploy certainly fits the theme of the map. good!

Industrial Helix wrote:Stalin, unlike his allies and enemies, faces 3 neutrals for his HQ given that his is the only city which is also an HQ.

this makes perfect sense.

is the +1 for three territories outside high population areas simply a restatement of the default number of deployable troops each turn? if so, then why does the legend need to say so? if this is an additional bonus, then i'm not seeing why u need to have such a bonus, which bumps up the initial deployment in 2-player and 3-player by 4 troops each, thereby boosting the normal first-mover advantage for no good reason. virtually all of the light brown regions of russia can assault a special region of some sort, so they're not without a purpose.

moscovy ought be be muscovy and novogorod ought to be novgorod.

http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/129
http://www.watford-novgorod.org.uk/

ian. :)
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Re: Russian Revolution 6/23 p. 3

Postby Industrial Helix on Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:58 pm

Thanks Ian. I'll make the name changes to the map.

As for listing the normal bonus for the regions outside the high pop zone, I thought it might help to improve clarity. I can take it out if you want it out, or I might just hang on until i know whether i need the space.
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Re: Russian Revolution 6/23 p. 3

Postby iancanton on Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:28 am

Industrial Helix wrote:As for listing the normal bonus for the regions outside the high pop zone, I thought it might help to improve clarity. I can take it out if you want it out, or I might just hang on until i know whether i need the space.

i thought it was confusing rather than helpful, since most other maps don't explicitly list the +1 for every 3 regions.

ian. :)
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Re: Russian Revolution 6/23 p. 3

Postby Industrial Helix on Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:47 pm

Hmm... I guess I'll pull the bit about the bonus and add in something about the cities sitting on top of territories.
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