Manual troops not on maps with starting positions

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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby natty dread on Sun May 30, 2010 6:52 pm

lackattack wrote:The question then is, how will this be implemented and how will cartographers maintain it...


I don't think cartographers need to maintain it. It would be lots of extra work.

It can simply be determined based on the XML if a map will allow you to drop on 2 or more territories on certain settings.

First of all - can we allow all team games or will some maps not allow you to drop any armies even in team games?


You can roughly divide all territories of a map in 3 categories:
- normal
- starts neutral
- coded as starting point

Of these, only the normal territories allow troops for manual deployment. When a territory is coded as starting point, it always starts with the troops it is coded with. But if you have 1 normal territory and 1 starting point territory, the 2 troops from the normal territory go to manual deployment, so you get to choose if you put them on the normal territory or the starting point territory. On the other hand if both are starting point territories, then you don't get to choose, because they won't give any troops for manual dep.

So, to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.

In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.

Even in team games, if each player only has 1 territory that is coded as a starting position, then manual doesn't work (because there are no troops to distribute).

I think a code that checks the XML for these definitions shouldn't be too hard to code.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby lackattack on Mon May 31, 2010 8:42 am

natty_dread wrote:So, to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.

In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.


Very nice analysis, natty =D>

I will go with this logic unless anyone can find a flaw in it.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Timminz on Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:44 am

lackattack wrote:
natty_dread wrote:So, to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.

In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.


Very nice analysis, natty =D>

I will go with this logic unless anyone can find a flaw in it.


Would Feudal 1v1 (for example) count all the starting territories as "coded as starting position"? Or would the fact that you get 2, randomly chosen from the 6 available, negate this?
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby AAFitz on Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:29 am

It doesnt seem worth it to me, to change the game and essentially take away acutal options for playing a map, which can indeed be relevant, just to protect the manual medal process.

I think no team games whatsoever should be affected, because manual with teams is very much different than 1v1, and necessarily even in just doubles, there are choices to be made.

The only games that should have manual removed are when a player can only make once choice, and that is to deploy on the one spot they have, which cant affect the game in any way, except to delay it.

But ruining the other games just to eliminate this, cant possibly be worth it...no doubt its a cure worse than the disease.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Timminz on Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:40 am

I agree with Fitz.

If the issue is medals, the solution should be in the medals (either add a sequential medal, or remove the manual medal), not in gameplay option removal.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby fumandomuerte on Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:14 pm

Timminz wrote:I agree with Fitz.

If the issue is medals, the solution should be in the medals (either add a sequential medal, or remove the manual medal), not in gameplay option removal.

I agree. The Manual Medal should be removed imo.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby natty dread on Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:43 pm

Even in team games, you don't get to choose where to deploy if all territories are either neutral or starting positions. There needs to be at least 1 territory that is a normal start, otherwise no troops are allocated for manual deployment.

If I remember correctly, the "starting positions" in feudal aren't actually coded as starting positions, they're just normal territories while all other territories are neutral. So you could still play manual team games on feudal.

However if Feudal (or any other similar map) would have the territories coded as starting positions, then it wouldn't make sense to allow manual team games on it, because you wouldn't get to deploy any troops manually.

Thus, my suggestion is still valid.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby MrBenn on Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:35 pm

lackattack wrote:Stickied this topic because we need feedback.

MrBenn wrote:In effect, if the game-type does not allow you to drop any armies during the deployment phase, or you only have a choice of 1 terr to drop on, then manual deployment makes no sense. Anything that gives you a choice involves some degree (even if minimal) of strategic thought.


Well put! Unless anyone objects, let's use this as the criteria. It shouldn't be controversial :-)

The question then is, how will this be implemented and how will cartographers maintain it...

First of all - can we allow all team games or will some maps not allow you to drop any armies even in team games?

Can we add a Manual troops Yes/No field in the maps database? Or a numeric field that has a min or max number of players? Or a select list with values like [Yes, Only Team Games, No]?

Perhaps we should now list all conditions where MrBenn's criteria are not met...

If we're going to go down the route of allowing/disallowing certain options for certain maps, then perhaps it may be worth adding a degree of auto-filtering options to the game-selection screens (ie selecting 4p games would block triples/quads gametypes)??

Also, it might pave the way for people to create gametype-specific maps - although this is a can of worms which people have previously tried to keep the lid firmly ON :P

As stated previously, the only option for blocking manual that makes sense is where the deployment phase gives you no choice in relation to deployment ie 0 terrs (City Mogul) or 1 terr (dependent on map and other settings, the logic for setting I am too tired to comprehend right now :P ).
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby lackattack on Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:28 pm

AAFitz wrote:It doesnt seem worth it to me, to change the game and essentially take away acutal options for playing a map, which can indeed be relevant, just to protect the manual medal process.

I think no team games whatsoever should be affected, because manual with teams is very much different than 1v1, and necessarily even in just doubles, there are choices to be made.

The only games that should have manual removed are when a player can only make once choice, and that is to deploy on the one spot they have, which cant affect the game in any way, except to delay it.

But ruining the other games just to eliminate this, cant possibly be worth it...no doubt its a cure worse than the disease.


The bold part matches natty's criteria, I think, so Fitz and those who agree with him also agree with natty.

Seems like we have consensus.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:30 pm

lackattack wrote:Okay - so then we can't automatically block all maps with starting positions...

Regarding teams - if we agree that Feudal 1v1 is a problem, then 2v2 is no better - you are faced with the same choice to stack or spread evenly.

We need a list with Maps and # players to block.

SirSebstar wrote:what happens when peeps who have earned their medal before the change, do they keep em?


I think they should be stripped :twisted:



I play a lot of feudal... with the 10 neutral, loading up one person doesn't mean a lot. maaayyybe in triples, but even then, I would cut it out completely. You ask the best feudal teams/people in CC and we will all tell you loading up one person in teams doesnt really mean a lot.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby army of nobunaga on Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:32 pm

I should have expounded... It doesnt mean a lot because if two ppl load up their 3rd teammate in the beginning they other two teammates will have a hellova time getting a card (with spoils) or extra territory for a bigger territory bonus (for no spoils) ... Really on every setting in Feudal(s) and Jam. and newworld, its rather pointless.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Dako on Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:20 am

By the way, I'd prefer manual (even for teams) as an option to distribute only your own armies. Yes, that means no teammate load. Means you need to use every player. You can fort the stack on 1st turn - that is ok, but you need to own them at the start.

Yeah, I think most people will disagree with me, but I think that should be the concept of manual games.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby qwertylpc on Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:19 pm

theres a select few mmaps and circumstances where manual doesn't work

in my opinion if people are going to do 1v1 manual feudal to get a medal then its there loss. These are the people who used double turns to get advantages (King Herpes) and they will keep doing this. Since this is an online site made for fun, if this is really a major issue then the easiest solution is to remove the medals, but then they will find another loophole
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby qwertylpc on Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:45 pm

also i am going for my crossmap so i play alot of manual freestyle rt games, it allows me to deploy quickly so i can go first and also i have a chance after deployment to study the map before i play if manual was eliminated i woulndt have the extra turn to ensure that i go first but still give me a chance to understand a map that is new to me
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby lackattack on Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:40 pm

natty_dread wrote:So, to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.

In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.


This is getting tricky to implement - not all starting positions on a map are symmetrical, some starting countries could be set as neutral and other not neutral. It might be impossible to tell what would happen until the game is initialized and starting positions allocated... :-k
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby SirSebstar on Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:08 am

lol, solution, keep my medal...
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby AAFitz on Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:45 am

lackattack wrote:
AAFitz wrote:It doesnt seem worth it to me, to change the game and essentially take away acutal options for playing a map, which can indeed be relevant, just to protect the manual medal process.

I think no team games whatsoever should be affected, because manual with teams is very much different than 1v1, and necessarily even in just doubles, there are choices to be made.

The only games that should have manual removed are when a player can only make once choice, and that is to deploy on the one spot they have, which cant affect the game in any way, except to delay it.

But ruining the other games just to eliminate this, cant possibly be worth it...no doubt its a cure worse than the disease.


The bold part matches natty's criteria, I think, so Fitz and those who agree with him also agree with natty.

Seems like we have consensus.


Well, perhaps Fitz didnt understand each and every map. If there is no choice, than it is indeed irrelevant so the medal shouldnt count, and the option can be eliminated. If however, there is a choice, even a subtle one, such as dropping on one teammate or all...removing the option would indeed well...remove a viable option.

If the suggestion is to remove the option, only when there is no option, than there is no objection...let alone any real point to it, besides medal manipulation avoidance.

So, well, now good luck getting it done. ;)
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby thenobodies80 on Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:52 pm

lackattack wrote:
natty_dread wrote:So, to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.

In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.


This is getting tricky to implement - not all starting positions on a map are symmetrical, some starting countries could be set as neutral and other not neutral. It might be impossible to tell what would happen until the game is initialized and starting positions allocated... :-k


Aren't those regions excluded in any case? :?
If assigned they are starting positions; if not assigned, those regions will be always neutral so in both cases they don't match this: at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.

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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby danfrank on Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:07 pm

SirSebstar wrote:lol,
its how i plan on getting the medal, using poland right now. but yea, all maps with starting positions would be a good way to block cheap medals. just a wonder, what happens when peeps who have earned their medal before the change, do they keep em?



Of course they do. The perfect examplae would be .. Your tax rate now is 10 percent and we will raise it to 20 .. Should you be allowed to keep the other ten percent you already got :-s
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby natty dread on Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:09 pm

I say take away the medals. Why should they get to keep the medals they earned by shady tactics in the first place? If people will have to earn their manual medals fairly in the future, why should those who used questionable means to get theirs get to keep them?
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby army of nobunaga on Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:54 pm

natty_dread wrote:I say take away the medals. Why should they get to keep the medals they earned by shady tactics in the first place? If people will have to earn their manual medals fairly in the future, why should those who used questionable means to get theirs get to keep them?



to be fair playing 1vs1 makes crossmap and single medal kinda shady in my mind too.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Dako on Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:32 am

Am I the only one thinking, that manual should be distribute only along your own troops, and not on teammates?
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby AndyDufresne on Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:51 pm

Dako wrote:Am I the only one thinking, that manual should be distribute only along your own troops, and not on teammates?


Hm, if we were playing Risk, that does make sense. But since we are playing Conquer Club World Domination, it could be a unique variant for our use. :D


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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby onbekende on Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:51 pm

Age of Realms (1, 2, 3)
City Mogul
New World
Feudal Epic
Feudal War
St Patricksday - not playable
(Das Schloss)
(Peloponnesian War)

that should be an accurate list of maps that are clearly not maps for the manual troop placement medal. (if I missed one, it means I didn't pkay that one yet, which is not many maps), 2 last maps are in Beta.

there are also some that are borderline cause of either the objectives (aka if you don't read carefully, you corner yourself with a manual deploy)or cause of amount of territories (who would even start a manual drop on those?)
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Culs De Sac on Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:06 pm

onbekende wrote:Age of Realms (1, 2, 3)
City Mogul
New World
Feudal Epic
Feudal War
St Patricksday - not playable
(Das Schloss)
(Peloponnesian War)

that should be an accurate list of maps that are clearly not maps for the manual troop placement medal. (if I missed one, it means I didn't pkay that one yet, which is not many maps), 2 last maps are in Beta.

there are also some that are borderline cause of either the objectives (aka if you don't read carefully, you corner yourself with a manual deploy)or cause of amount of territories (who would even start a manual drop on those?)


Age of Realm Maps have two places to deploy.. And manual does make sense on these maps depending on drops... So to remove the manual from this map would def. change game play..

For instance.. If you get dropped Mua and Borun in AOR 3.. Then deploying all of your troops on one castle would make attaining a bonus region much easier.. especially Mua since you have to hit a 3 and a 6 just to take your first rune...

The same goes for both Feudals and New World....

The best solution to this dilemma would be to remove the Manual Medal from 1v1 settings.. and grant it for team games only.

As for Dako... I disagree with you.. I enjoy the science behind being able to place on either my teammates or myself. So I would still allow for manual deployment on ANY player.. In a team game... Forting or feeding one particular player becomes an essential strategy at some point and time.. This happens to create it a bit sooner.

My vote is to remove the medal all together...or to make it a team based medal to avoid some of these 1v1 medal "farming" examples individuals have shown concerns about.

p.s. Jamaica and City Mogul are def an exception since its been stated that manual makes NO difference.
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