Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby natty dread on Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:44 am

Sorry, this is a little hard to follow: you like the decay being cancelled by holding Norway and Denmark or don't? It seems to be somewhat essential in terms of gameplay at the moment anyway.


This is impossible. A decay is a negative autodeploy, and autodeploys cannot be conditional, currently. So you cannot cancel a decay by holding other territories.
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:06 am

I was gonna say the same thing as Natty. And I think its best that the conditional decay goes as well cause it made the Scandinavian territories too strong.
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby theBastard on Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:46 am

Industrial Helix wrote:I was gonna say the same thing as Natty. And I think its best that the conditional decay goes as well cause it made the Scandinavian territories too strong.


you are right, but Vikings were strong. only as historic notice :)
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby Balsiefen on Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:16 pm

theBastard wrote:
Balsiefen wrote:no, You get +1 for every two regions you hold which are in the same realm (effectively a continant) so holding Ui Niell and Ulidia gives +1, holding Scone and Dal Riada gives +1 but holding Ui Niell and Dal Riada gives no bonus as they are in different realms.


so each background flag represents realm. what about Kernow - it is one region - to which realm it belongs?

Balsiefen wrote: I may add a soft background to the sea at some point but I haven't so far as I'm afraid that combined with the flags it may make the map look too busy.


maybe any waves?


Kernow is it's own realm and does not give a bonus, it is mostly there as a stop-off point between ships. As for a sea background, I'll add something next update.
Industrial Helix wrote:I was gonna say the same thing as Natty. And I think its best that the conditional decay goes as well cause it made the Scandinavian territories too strong.


I was told that city mogul has conditional autodeploy: it will only autodeploy if you hold it's house. Looking at the map this certainly seems to be the case and as far as I can tell xml that could handle that should be able to handle the fleets.

Whether this makes the Vikings overpowered or not is another matter. There was complaint before this addition that the Vikings were underpowered as they can only hold 2 territs before they have to cross the sea. The cancelling effect was designed to rectify this.
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby theBastard on Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:35 pm

I´m afraid that set up conditions for "decay" as you can is impossible. if I good understand natty.

maybe add +1 for 2 or 3 ships if player hold Bergen or Viberg?

btw, it could be better for Denmark to have Ribe...
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby natty dread on Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:41 pm

City mogul doesn't have any conditional autodeploys, because those are impossible to do currently. Trust me on this one.

The only territories that get autodeploy on it seem to be "house" and "shop" and the legend says nothing about conditions there. I think the "any other shop" on the legend refers to shops that are in the neutral areas.

Autodeploys and decays on the XML are defined by adding a "bonus" element on the territory element, unlike normal bonuses which are defined by "continent" elements. Thus you cannot specify any conditions for the autodeploy/decay, it is simply given on the territory it is on, if you own that territory.
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby Balsiefen on Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:37 am

Maybe you're right then. So what has to be decided is whether to use some other method-I like the idea of getting a bonus for ships if Viking lands are held-or whether I should try to get conditional autodeploy added to the xml, I can see it being useful in a lot of other maps aside from this one.

And I think I may change the Danish city to Ribe on the next update, there are no references to attacks being launched from near there but it was the most important city in Scandinavia and it's a lot more convenient graphically.
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby theBastard on Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:09 am

I think the best could be to add any bonus for ships if you held Viberg or Bergen...

I´m not sure if is possible to set up that if player not hold Viberg or Bergen and he hold ships each gives any penalty.
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby theBastard on Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:57 am

I thought about this map a little and here are some my ideas:

1, Ireland could be also (as rest of Britania) divided to two/three Kingdoms. Mumhain, Ui Neill, maybe Leinster or Connacht.
2, it is Viking Invasion - did you think about Vikings colonies in Ireland (Dublin. Cork, Wexford, Waterford)? later Vikings established Kingdom of Dublin here...
3, what about Danelaw in England?
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby 00iCon on Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:46 am

I looked at this a while back and thought it was a great idea. Now I look and the graphics are great!
One word comes to mind:
QUENCH!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby tokle on Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:12 pm

A suggestion;
Bergen wouldn't have been founded yet at the time of the viking invasions. The region should be called Gulen or Gulaþing, where the law assembly of western norway took place.
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby theBastard on Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:39 pm

tokle wrote:A suggestion;
Bergen wouldn't have been founded yet at the time of the viking invasions. The region should be called Gulen or Gulaþing, where the law assembly of western norway took place.


Bergen was meant as town, I think. if it was not founded in these times, maybe Stavanger or Eikundarsund would be better...?

to Balsiefen, about ships for me is the best to make them deacay (also if player holds Bergen or Viberg - sea was dangerous so also Vikings lost any men), but if player holds Bergen or Viberg (or both?) he gain bonus +1 for any nu,ber of ships which he holds. this should be any trade bonus for Vikings...
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby TaCktiX on Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:52 pm

I've got a few things you could think about turning this map into, based on one major critique: Either the map is too small for conquest, or there are too many players. Note that when I say too small I am referring to number of territories.

Option A: Make the map bigger to better suit 8 players. Right now, it'll either be a balancing nightmare or not enough to make it true conquest.
Option B: Ditch conquest entirely. This map, with some rejiggering of the fleets to be a bonus and maybe some conditionals if you hold Danmark or Berghen, could easily be a standard gameplay map.
Option C: Split out the nordic powers to be 4 players a la New World. This would be easier to balance, but would require a decent amount of graphical changes.
Option D: Lobby for it to be 6 players, 4 defenders, 2 invaders. You'd be able to keep the same map size and do more with it than your present situation.
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby Balsiefen on Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:52 am

Okay folks.

theBastard wrote:I think the best could be to add any bonus for ships if you held Viberg or Bergen...

I´m not sure if is possible to set up that if player not hold Viberg or Bergen and he hold ships each gives any penalty.

to Balsiefen, about ships for me is the best to make them deacay (also if player holds Bergen or Viberg - sea was dangerous so also Vikings lost any men), but if player holds Bergen or Viberg (or both?) he gain bonus +1 for any nu,ber of ships which he holds. this should be any trade bonus for Vikings...

How about a +1 bonus for every two ships if you hold Viborg or Berghen. (Or whatever they end up being called) With any luck this should even things out. Actually, I really wish it was possible to set up quick test games, With a map as different as this one It's often hard to tell what the gameplay is going to do.

theBastard wrote:I thought about this map a little and here are some my ideas:

1, Ireland could be also (as rest of Britania) divided to two/three Kingdoms. Mumhain, Ui Neill, maybe Leinster or Connacht.
2, it is Viking Invasion - did you think about Vikings colonies in Ireland (Dublin. Cork, Wexford, Waterford)? later Vikings established Kingdom of Dublin here...
3, what about Danelaw in England?

Dividing ireland up in to more kingdoms may be awkward (Unless I am adding more territories in general) as there hasn't been a time where Ireland was divided up between two or three kings and most kingdoms are the size of territories rather than continents. I'm also a little cautious of giving the Irish player too large an empire to build before he has to go and attack one of the other players-in this game land is power and if Ireland had a large number of territs and only one player then it would become unbalanced.

The game itself is set before the Viking Invasion, Danelaw does not exist yet-the Anglic kingdoms of Mercia, Northumbria and East Engle still preside-but the Danish player is encouraged to create it by given an easy route into East Engle, the first Danish conquest. Likewise with Ireland, the Norwegians are encouraged to take Orcades, Inse Gall before landing somewhere around the Irish Sea-though they have other options as well.


tokle wrote:A suggestion;
Bergen wouldn't have been founded yet at the time of the viking invasions. The region should be called Gulen or Gulaþing, where the law assembly of western norway took place.

theBastard wrote:Bergen was meant as town, I think. if it was not founded in these times, maybe Stavanger or Eikundarsund would be better...?

I'll put some research into this when I get time, both of the Scandinavian towns will probably be changing their names.

TaCktiX wrote:I've got a few things you could think about turning this map into, based on one major critique: Either the map is too small for conquest, or there are too many players. Note that when I say too small I am referring to number of territories.

Option A: Make the map bigger to better suit 8 players. Right now, it'll either be a balancing nightmare or not enough to make it true conquest.
Option B: Ditch conquest entirely. This map, with some rejiggering of the fleets to be a bonus and maybe some conditionals if you hold Danmark or Berghen, could easily be a standard gameplay map.
Option C: Split out the nordic powers to be 4 players a la New World. This would be easier to balance, but would require a decent amount of graphical changes.
Option D: Lobby for it to be 6 players, 4 defenders, 2 invaders. You'd be able to keep the same map size and do more with it than your present situation.


Right, this is interesting. Myself, I'm not entirely sure If it is too small. It's defiantly smaller than anything that has been tried before which is a disadvantage in that it is impossible to tell how a game will work out on it. This does not necessarily mean that it has bad gameplay, but it will certainly be more intense than your average conquest map. Really there isn't anything to compare it to in saying small conquest maps do or do not work.

If it is necessary however, the best thing would be to add more territories to add space between the kingdoms, though that would be a complete graphical nightmare. I can't really see how adding more Nordic players would help with balancing to be honest, it could easily make it a lot worse. Also I really don't want to ditch conquest lest this become just another GB map.
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby theBastard on Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:53 am

Balsiefen wrote:How about a +1 bonus for every two ships if you hold Viborg or Berghen. (Or whatever they end up being called) With any luck this should even things out. Actually, I really wish it was possible to set up quick test games, With a map as different as this one It's often hard to tell what the gameplay is going to do.


this sounds good. but still have ships as decay, I think....

Balsiefen wrote:Dividing ireland up in to more kingdoms may be awkward (Unless I am adding more territories in general) as there hasn't been a time where Ireland was divided up between two or three kings and most kingdoms are the size of territories rather than continents.


Ireland was all time divided between small kingdoms. the title High King (crowned in Tara) was given to powerfull King of these small kingdoms. but it was often that if High King was from Ui Neill clan that Kings of Leinster or Mumhain did not accept him, and vice versa...

Balsiefen wrote:I'm also a little cautious of giving the Irish player too large an empire to build before he has to go and attack one of the other players-in this game land is power and if Ireland had a large number of territs and only one player then it would become unbalanced.


I do not know if you will folow TaCktiX advice to add more territories to map, but now Ireland has 6 territories. so now player could have +3 for all Ireland. if you divided it to two kingdoms there will be only +2 for them...

Balsiefen wrote:The game itself is set before the Viking Invasion


this chages things...

Balsiefen wrote:The game itself is set before the Viking Invasion, Danelaw does not exist yet-the Anglic kingdoms of Mercia, Northumbria and East Engle still preside-but the Danish player is encouraged to create it by given an easy route into East Engle, the first Danish conquest. Likewise with Ireland, the Norwegians are encouraged to take Orcades, Inse Gall before landing somewhere around the Irish Sea-though they have other options as well.


...but than Strathclyde is aliasign in this time. the Kingdom of Strathclyde was founded later. maybe Ystrad Clud could be better? also Kingdom of Alba was not founded before Vikings come to Scotland. there were several Pictish kingdoms and Gaelic kingdom Dal Riata... and also after foundation of Kingdom of Alba the Kings of Alba did not control northern highlands, Mormaerdom of Moray...

Orsades were settled by Vikings in the late 8th century.

o.k., I do not know how accurate (by history) you want be :D

Balsiefen wrote:If it is necessary however, the best thing would be to add more territories to add space between the kingdoms, though that would be a complete graphical nightmare. I can't really see how adding more Nordic players would help with balancing to be honest, it could easily make it a lot worse. Also I really don't want to ditch conquest lest this become just another GB map.


I think that add little more territories could help. maybe it is not necessary to have 8 forts as capitals (and starting positions). there could be more of them...?
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby Industrial Helix on Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:43 am

Well, why don't you see about making this map a 6 player map then? I believe Tacktix got approval for Research and Conquer to be 6 players.

The other thing we need from you is a new map showing different rules for the ships, as what is proposed on the map simply isn't possible.

And finally, can you decrease the opacity on the flags some and but some sort of white/tan/black glow around the territory names?
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby tokle on Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:20 pm

theBastard wrote:
tokle wrote:A suggestion;
Bergen wouldn't have been founded yet at the time of the viking invasions. The region should be called Gulen or Gulaþing, where the law assembly of western norway took place.


Bergen was meant as town, I think. if it was not founded in these times, maybe Stavanger or Eikundarsund would be better...?

to Balsiefen, about ships for me is the best to make them deacay (also if player holds Bergen or Viberg - sea was dangerous so also Vikings lost any men), but if player holds Bergen or Viberg (or both?) he gain bonus +1 for any nu,ber of ships which he holds. this should be any trade bonus for Vikings...


Stavanger would probably be the better choice in my view. It would haven been called Stafangr, if you are using contemproary names.
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby Balsiefen on Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:24 am

New map is coming up folks, time is a little short at the moment though so I may work on getting the medieval denmark update finished first.

Ystrad Clud and Strathclyde appear to be different names for the same entity, the first I think is Brythonic and the second is Gaelic which has since come into common usage. As I'm aiming for the names to be as contemporary as possible I will switch to Ystrad Clud.

As for Alba as a whole, I fear you are right but I think it would be beneficial as a whole to keep it as one territory.
(Actually a thought just came to me- if we used Dal Riata and some grouping of the pictish kingdoms, it might solve the Irish thing as well. On the other hand it may create more gameplay disturbance than it is worth)
Click image to enlarge.
image


As for losing two kingdoms, it is possible but I'm still not convinced it's absolutely necessary. Mercia would probably have to be one if we did, though it was by far the most powerful for much of its history-I'm not sure about which other.

The graphical and legend changes I will also make in the next update.
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby theBastard on Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:50 pm

Balsiefen wrote:New map is coming up folks, time is a little short at the moment though so I may work on getting the medieval denmark update finished first.


I´m looking forward on it...

Balsiefen wrote:Ystrad Clud and Strathclyde appear to be different names for the same entity, the first I think is Brythonic and the second is Gaelic which has since come into common usage. As I'm aiming for the names to be as contemporary as possible I will switch to Ystrad Clud.


basicaly it is right. Strathclyde (kingdom with this name) was founded later as Viking invasions started. but kingdom of Ystrad Clud was during this time...

Balsiefen wrote:As for Alba as a whole, I fear you are right but I think it would be beneficial as a whole to keep it as one territory.
(Actually a thought just came to me- if we used Dal Riata and some grouping of the pictish kingdoms, it might solve the Irish thing as well. On the other hand it may create more gameplay disturbance than it is worth)


it is on you. just it is not historic accuracy...
about Ireland, I can not see how it could works with Dal Riata... the Ireland will be not divided. btw, I´m afraid that map posted by you is not from time when Viking invasion started, it looks a little earlier.

Balsiefen wrote:As for losing two kingdoms, it is possible but I'm still not convinced it's absolutely necessary. Mercia would probably have to be one if we did, though it was by far the most powerful for much of its history-I'm not sure about which other.


why losing two kingdoms? you can have more kingdoms, more "capitals" as eight. the rest could start as neutral, I think...
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby shocked439 on Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:03 am

natty_dread wrote:
Sorry, this is a little hard to follow: you like the decay being cancelled by holding Norway and Denmark or don't? It seems to be somewhat essential in terms of gameplay at the moment anyway.


This is impossible. A decay is a negative autodeploy, and autodeploys cannot be conditional, currently. So you cannot cancel a decay by holding other territories.

What if it's not cancelled but neutralized by an additional bonus, like conquer man. +2 if you hold a ship and port city -1 fir each ship as two seperate bonuses having the effect of a conditional auto deploy.
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby natty dread on Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:23 am

shocked439 wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
Sorry, this is a little hard to follow: you like the decay being cancelled by holding Norway and Denmark or don't? It seems to be somewhat essential in terms of gameplay at the moment anyway.


This is impossible. A decay is a negative autodeploy, and autodeploys cannot be conditional, currently. So you cannot cancel a decay by holding other territories.

What if it's not cancelled but neutralized by an additional bonus, like conquer man. +2 if you hold a ship and port city -1 fir each ship as two seperate bonuses having the effect of a conditional auto deploy.


Not a good idea IMO. Decay doesn't currently decay below 1, so players could "cheat" the system by just leaving 1:s on the decay territories so they wouldn't lose any troops but would still gain the troops given by the bonus.
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby TaCktiX on Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:21 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:Well, why don't you see about making this map a 6 player map then? I believe Tacktix got approval for Research and Conquer to be 6 players.


For the record, OliverFA and t-o-m secured that approval, not myself. I came onto the scene with that already in place. Ironically, I'm the only one still developing the map (though development will be delayed until the middle of July. Blame my PCS.

Anyways, the map at hand. I certainly see where you're coming from Balsiefen, but I disagree with the assessment that "we don't know whether or not a small conquest map will work." One of the major reasons the present conquest maps are fine and not just a diceluck dinner is that there are numerous options to pursue, with a good buffer between you and your nearest enemy (unless you got Aoria in AoR 1; sucks to be you). Thus, strategy tends to play up higher than luck. With a much smaller neutral buffer and fewer "places to go" before running into other players, balancing it so it isn't "ZOMG I LOST NONE AGAINST THAT NEUTRAL 5!" most of the time for victory will be very hard. Referencing back to Helix's idea, you could lobby for 6 players, keep your general conquest theme, and add that lovely buffer to make things more do-able.
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Re: Viking Invasion-Map II: The Other Resurrection

Postby Evil DIMwit on Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:07 pm

We certainly have small conquest maps. WWII Poland, Poker Club, now Woodboro. The problem isn't just size; all the kings in Britain are very close together. This might be slightly improved by adding some impassables: Off the top of my head, Hwicce-Tamworth, Tamworth-Mercia, Wincastre-Wessex, Wreocan Saete-Deira, Scone-Strathclyde. I don't know if this is quite a replacement for just adding a bunch more territories between everything, though.
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