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Assured armies on first turn of games

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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby Halmir on Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:19 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:This will not make game play any fairer. The whole idea of the random selection of turn order is that no one has a fairer chance than any others. By allowing people to obtain troops for territories they do not own, then the troops used by the other players who conquered those territories were effectively wasted. Consider a map where each player starts with a large number of territories. The player who goes first may attack a lot of his opponent's territories on the first turn so that the second player has a much more difficult time. By giving the second player the same number of troops, he now has the advantage actually, because he now only has to attack territories with 1 army each on them.


What tosh, of course it's fairer. Probly 1 in 5 (if not more) of the 2 player games I play are decided by a combination of who goes first and the drop; most of the time it's who goes first I think. Those who would oppose this delight in trying to hit their opponent first.
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Re: Fair play Troop allocation at start of game

Postby jrh_cardinal on Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:27 pm

Halmir wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:This will not make game play any fairer. The whole idea of the random selection of turn order is that no one has a fairer chance than any others. By allowing people to obtain troops for territories they do not own, then the troops used by the other players who conquered those territories were effectively wasted. Consider a map where each player starts with a large number of territories. The player who goes first may attack a lot of his opponent's territories on the first turn so that the second player has a much more difficult time. By giving the second player the same number of troops, he now has the advantage actually, because he now only has to attack territories with 1 army each on them.


What tosh, of course it's fairer. Probly 1 in 5 (if not more) of the 2 player games I play are decided by a combination of who goes first and the drop; most of the time it's who goes first I think. Those who would oppose this delight in trying to hit their opponent first.

this would not make it fairer. Your games are obviously on smaller maps, where both people only get 3 troops whether they go first or second, so this wouldn't make a difference (this rule change doesn't cover people dropping continents, so I'm not talking about that either). On bigger maps, if the second person got just as many troops, they would win every time because they could just run right through all of the first persons 1's
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First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby gho on Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:52 am

Concise description:
On the first turn the troops everybody should receive should be calculated when the game is intialised

Specifics/Details:
On larger maps where the bonus is larger than the normal 3, if you go last the troops you receive can be significantly different to what the first player receives, especially when the game settings is manual troop deployment, leaving you chasing the game from behind. I don't think the turn you take should have significance on how you have to play the game. The first player already gets the advantage when it comes to trading cards, they shouldn't also get this advantage.

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
The game results will be fairer for all and will stop people from avoiding manual games.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby drunkmonkey on Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:56 am

Not a bad idea, especially for those maps where players start w/ 12 or 15 territories in 1v1 games.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby edwinissweet on Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:53 pm

This would create problems when a person starts with a bonus and the other person goes first. Even if he breaks it, it would be useless
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby drunkmonkey on Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:03 pm

edwinissweet wrote:This would create problems when a person starts with a bonus and the other person goes first. Even if he breaks it, it would be useless


I knew there was something I was overlooking. I think I posted a suggestion once to eliminate first-turn bonuses, but it was blown off. Oh well.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby Woodruff on Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:36 pm

edwinissweet wrote:This would create problems when a person starts with a bonus and the other person goes first. Even if he breaks it, it would be useless


This seems to me like further justification FOR this idea. First-turn bonuses are an abomination (ok, that's overstating, but you get the idea) to fairness in the game. I think this is a great suggestion and, as someone earlier mentioned, particularly on those maps where starting armies are evenly divisible by three.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby drunkmonkey on Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:15 am

Woodruff wrote:First-turn bonuses are an abomination (ok, that's overstating, but you get the idea) to fairness in the game.


When I suggested a method to eliminate first-turn bonuses, I was told that they were "part of the game", and eliminating them would be equivalent to eliminating the dice. I wish I was making this up.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby TheForgivenOne on Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:53 am

The drop is as random as the dice. So i think that's why eliminating the randomness of the drop is like eliminating the randomness of the dice. Plus some known mapmakers have said that they don't want to rewrite their XML on certain maps. From what I remember, cairns did not want to redo Madness! because of the +1 the Dog house gives. Some people wanted to make the Dog House neutral.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby drunkmonkey on Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:02 pm

One dice roll doesn't have as great an effect on the game as dropping a bonus. You're comparing apples and oranges. Yes, they're both random. So is who goes first in an 8-player game. That doesn't mean they all have the same effect. My suggestion didn't require an XML change to the maps. If someone drops a +1, you can recover. +2 is tougher. +3 and up is near impossible.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:19 pm

It's true that there are significant advantages to starting with a bonus, but that's inherent in the luck-based nature of the game. You take away a significant part of the game if you take away that luck.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby TheForgivenOne on Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:59 pm

drunkmonkey wrote:One dice roll doesn't have as great an effect on the game as dropping a bonus. You're comparing apples and oranges. Yes, they're both random. So is who goes first in an 8-player game. That doesn't mean they all have the same effect. My suggestion didn't require an XML change to the maps. If someone drops a +1, you can recover. +2 is tougher. +3 and up is near impossible.


Really? Dice rolls don't change the game that much? Then i wonder why so many people want to punch a hole in their screen when they see a string of terrible dice.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby Woodruff on Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:16 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:The drop is as random as the dice. So i think that's why eliminating the randomness of the drop is like eliminating the randomness of the dice.


See, I'm ok with leaving the random drop as it is, even as that means some folks will drop a "bonus area". It just seems to me that the player shouldn't actually get that bonus until the 2nd turn, so that the other player has at least had SOME opportunity to break it.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby drunkmonkey on Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:06 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:
drunkmonkey wrote:One dice roll doesn't have as great an effect on the game as dropping a bonus. You're comparing apples and oranges. Yes, they're both random. So is who goes first in an 8-player game. That doesn't mean they all have the same effect. My suggestion didn't require an XML change to the maps. If someone drops a +1, you can recover. +2 is tougher. +3 and up is near impossible.


Really? Dice rolls don't change the game that much? Then i wonder why so many people want to punch a hole in their screen when they see a string of terrible dice.


Yes - dice don't change the game. That's exactly what I said.

Never mind. I give up.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby Queen_Herpes on Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:03 am

I see both sides here. It certainly is frustrating to drop a bonus or drop 15 armies and then end up with fewer troops when your turn begins and come to find my opponent now has a bonus. I could go either way here, but I lean towards giving every player the same number of starting troops...of course, that is what happens in freestyle...but if that timer thing goes through with freestyle where the game doesn't start for 30 seconds or something....
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby gho on Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:56 am

Starting first already gives you the advantage of staking out your territory and being the first to trade cards, why should it also give you the bonus of having more reinforcements at the beginning.

With the continent bonus you could just make continent bonuses not part of the troops calculated on initialisation, though I don't see the big deal about them, this is no different than the person who takes the first turn landing a bonus, because nobody will have time to steal the bonus of them.

This suggestion was provoked when I played a 6 player World 2.1 manual game. Everyone started with 18 territories, meaning 6 reinforcements, but because it was manual, by the time it was my turn I ended up with only 3 reinforcements, which is a significant difference. With 6 men you could place them all on your manual stack, auto attack a neighbouring stack and should win, basically meaning game over for the other player or you could invest in another area, something really not viable with just 3 troops.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby TheForgivenOne on Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:44 am

gho wrote:Starting first already gives you the advantage of staking out your territory and being the first to trade cards, why should it also give you the bonus of having more reinforcements at the beginning.


Not always true about being able to cash first. MANY a time in Flat rate, i've lost, even though i went first, because the opponent got a BGR, while i got RGG.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby gho on Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:46 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:
gho wrote:Starting first already gives you the advantage of staking out your territory and being the first to trade cards, why should it also give you the bonus of having more reinforcements at the beginning.


Not always true about being able to cash first. MANY a time in Flat rate, i've lost, even though i went first, because the opponent got a BGR, while i got RGG.

What cards you get are irrelevant for this suggestion (I'd personally like to see a card rate option with a set amount, but thats also irrelevent to this thread), everybody has the same chance with which cards they get. You could say that who starts first is random and is part of the game, but with cards if the game progresses long enough all players will have bad sets and good sets.

This change would significantly affect the way 1vs1 games are played. Currently 1vs1 games would be the most up to chance, with who starts first having a significant affect on who wins. The most common strategy for 1v1 is to knock off your opponents territories to get them with less than 12 territories while you keep expanding to improve your territory bonus. Due to this I think alot of people avoid 1v1, I know I definitely avoid playing 1v1 because of it.

How do I get this suggestion to progress?
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby Woodruff on Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:02 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:
gho wrote:Starting first already gives you the advantage of staking out your territory and being the first to trade cards, why should it also give you the bonus of having more reinforcements at the beginning.


Not always true about being able to cash first. MANY a time in Flat rate, i've lost, even though i went first, because the opponent got a BGR, while i got RGG.


Or better yet, an RRRRG. <sigh>
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby drunkmonkey on Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:52 am

Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:
gho wrote:Starting first already gives you the advantage of staking out your territory and being the first to trade cards, why should it also give you the bonus of having more reinforcements at the beginning.


Not always true about being able to cash first. MANY a time in Flat rate, i've lost, even though i went first, because the opponent got a BGR, while i got RGG.


Or better yet, an RRRRG. <sigh>


I usually get the BBRRR. They like to tease me.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby Army of GOD on Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:38 pm

I'm currently in a game with 5 reds.

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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby Darwins_Bane on Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:41 pm

gho wrote:How do I get this suggestion to progress?

garner support by having ppl post here with more elaboration or just to support the thread, it will get stickied eventually. You also have to hope that these ppl who are derailing your thread stop before it gets locked.
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Re: First Turn Troops Calculated on Game Initialisation

Postby gho on Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:09 am

Somebody mentioned previously that if this was implemented people who landed continents would receive there bonus even if they were taken away from them before they had there turn. I see this as further justification for this idea. I started a 3 player game on the England map recently and all 3 of us should have started with the +2 troops for having 7 territories in a region, as I started first, however, I managed to remove both their +2 bonus before they had taken a turn (it only required me taking 2 territories), putting me at a great advantage. While I benefited from this, I don't believe it was fair on my opposition.
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All get the same troops to deploy in round 1

Postby nietzsche on Mon May 21, 2012 2:54 am

Same number of troops for deployment in round 1


Specifics/Details:
  • No matter how many of your territories were taken in the first turn, you will get the same amount of armies to deploy
  • If at the start both have 15 territories, both get 5 armies to deploy in the first turn (plus bonuses).

How this will benefit the site and/or other comments:
  • More fair
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Re: All get the same troops to deploy in round 1

Postby betiko on Mon May 21, 2012 6:35 am

very good suggestion! I approve 100%.
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