Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 ::REVAMP::

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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby The Bison King on Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:32 pm

ender516 wrote:
MrBenn wrote:
MrBenn wrote:I've updated my Bonus Probabilities Spreadsheet to account for starting positions, but am having trouble uploading it anywhere :-k

Got it.... http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/9/2259283//BonusProbability2.xls

Play around with the bonus spreadsheet a bitand see if there is some combination of neutral starts, or larger starting position groups that help. It might be that by ADDING terrs to the starting group, you can increase the number of dropped territories to 19 or 20 for 1v1 games (which is better than 18)

Thanks for the upgrade. This sheet is more powerful than the last, and I like the red highlight on bad numbers of dropped territories like 18. Someday, I hope to create a tool that goes a step beyond this, which analyzes an XML file, firstly, to extract the numbers you need for this sheet, and secondly, to recognize the actual interactions between the regions in the starting positions and the zones which provide bonuses. That way, there would be no need to panic about the probability of dropping a 3-region zone on a given map if all such zones were split by starting positions.

So does this mean that will re-arrange the starting positions rather than add neutrals? because I was thinking that the neutrals wouldn't be the best solution after all any way. Especially since it didn't do anything to prevent people from dropping the Island bonus.
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:23 am

The Bison King wrote:
ender516 wrote:
MrBenn wrote:
MrBenn wrote:I've updated my Bonus Probabilities Spreadsheet to account for starting positions, but am having trouble uploading it anywhere :-k

Got it.... http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/9/2259283//BonusProbability2.xls

Play around with the bonus spreadsheet a bitand see if there is some combination of neutral starts, or larger starting position groups that help. It might be that by ADDING terrs to the starting group, you can increase the number of dropped territories to 19 or 20 for 1v1 games (which is better than 18)

Thanks for the upgrade. This sheet is more powerful than the last, and I like the red highlight on bad numbers of dropped territories like 18. Someday, I hope to create a tool that goes a step beyond this, which analyzes an XML file, firstly, to extract the numbers you need for this sheet, and secondly, to recognize the actual interactions between the regions in the starting positions and the zones which provide bonuses. That way, there would be no need to panic about the probability of dropping a 3-region zone on a given map if all such zones were split by starting positions.

So does this mean that will re-arrange the starting positions rather than add neutrals? because I was thinking that the neutrals wouldn't be the best solution after all any way. Especially since it didn't do anything to prevent people from dropping the Island bonus.

Fooling with MrBenn's new calculator tells me that if we make the starting positions 3 groups of 5, 6, or 7 regions each, then in 2-player games, each player starts with 19 regions, which is a better number. We would have to go to 8, 9 or 10 regions to get to 20 regions per player in a 2-player game. That seems unnecessarily restrictive. We would be well advised to use those extra regions to break up the Islands bonus and possibly the 4-region bonuses.

MrBenn, I am a little bothered by the fact that the probabilities of dropping various bonuses in games of 4 or more players changes with changes to the number of regions per starting position when we are only defining 3 starting positions. Also, the probability of ANY player receiving a bonus is only calculated for those game sizes where the starting positions are used, and I don't understand the calculation being used.
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:26 pm

ender516 wrote:
MrBenn wrote:I've updated my Bonus Probabilities Spreadsheet to account for starting positions, but am having trouble uploading it anywhere :-k

Got it.... http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/9/2259283//BonusProbability2.xls.

Fooling with MrBenn's new calculator tells me that if we make the starting positions 3 groups of 5, 6, or 7 regions each, then in 2-player games, each player starts with 19 regions, which is a better number. We would have to go to 8, 9 or 10 regions to get to 20 regions per player in a 2-player game. That seems unnecessarily restrictive. We would be well advised to use those extra regions to break up the Islands bonus and possibly the 4-region bonuses.

MrBenn, I am a little bothered by the fact that the probabilities of dropping various bonuses in games of 4 or more players changes with changes to the number of regions per starting position when we are only defining 3 starting positions. Also, the probability of ANY player receiving a bonus is only calculated for those game sizes where the starting positions are used, and I don't understand the calculation being used.[/quote]
I've updated the spreadsheet (same url link as above) - I'd obviously moved cells around while I was updating it, which effected the calculations in question. The percentage that A specific player drops a bonus is the one which has been calculated to a fine degree of accuracy; this is the probability that the first player starts with a bonus, or if you play a game it it the probability YOU will start with a bonus. The cruder ANY player percentage is a simple multiplier, which slightly over-calculates the probability that somebody will drop the specific bonus (which is why there are certain combinations that give you a percentage greater than 100%).
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby RobbieDub on Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:06 pm

Hi,
I'm playing this map in game 7809557. Until one minute ago I was holding the road Ifnal - South Lylia but was not receiving the bonus. I don't know how to prove it now but I thought it was maybe I bug that should be looked into. Wish I had noticed it sooner.
Cheers, rob
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby The Bison King on Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:15 pm

RobbieDub wrote:Hi,
I'm playing this map in game 7809557. Until one minute ago I was holding the road Ifnal - South Lylia but was not receiving the bonus. I don't know how to prove it now but I thought it was maybe I bug that should be looked into. Wish I had noticed it sooner.
Cheers, rob

Were you holding just the cities or the cities with all the territories in between? because you need both.
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby RobbieDub on Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:37 am

Ah my mistake I misread thinks. I didn't have the territories in between. Sorry just grasping at straws I guess. I am enjoying the game play on the map though.
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby 6_roller on Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:48 pm

Bonus turn 1, +3 to one player!


Please see this bug reported

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=506&t=130245

[Game]http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=7912579[/Game]
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby mattattam on Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:10 pm

So what you thinking of doing Bison?
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:00 am

ender516 wrote:
The Bison King wrote:
ender516 wrote:
MrBenn wrote:
MrBenn wrote:I've updated my Bonus Probabilities Spreadsheet to account for starting positions, but am having trouble uploading it anywhere :-k

Got it.... http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/9/2259283//BonusProbability2.xls

Play around with the bonus spreadsheet a bitand see if there is some combination of neutral starts, or larger starting position groups that help. It might be that by ADDING terrs to the starting group, you can increase the number of dropped territories to 19 or 20 for 1v1 games (which is better than 18)

Thanks for the upgrade. This sheet is more powerful than the last, and I like the red highlight on bad numbers of dropped territories like 18. Someday, I hope to create a tool that goes a step beyond this, which analyzes an XML file, firstly, to extract the numbers you need for this sheet, and secondly, to recognize the actual interactions between the regions in the starting positions and the zones which provide bonuses. That way, there would be no need to panic about the probability of dropping a 3-region zone on a given map if all such zones were split by starting positions.

So does this mean that will re-arrange the starting positions rather than add neutrals? because I was thinking that the neutrals wouldn't be the best solution after all any way. Especially since it didn't do anything to prevent people from dropping the Island bonus.

Fooling with MrBenn's new calculator tells me that if we make the starting positions 3 groups of 5, 6, or 7 regions each, then in 2-player games, each player starts with 19 regions, which is a better number. We would have to go to 8, 9 or 10 regions to get to 20 regions per player in a 2-player game. That seems unnecessarily restrictive. We would be well advised to use those extra regions to break up the Islands bonus and possibly the 4-region bonuses.


Currently there are 3 terrs in each starting position:
Code: Select all
- <positions>
- <position>
  <territory>Sarle</territory>
  <territory>Arleus</territory>
  <territory>Dalmus</territory>
  </position>
- <position>
  <territory>Itheria</territory>
  <territory>Azuran</territory>
  <territory>Chunjaris</territory>
  </position>
- <position>
  <territory>Scaralact</territory>
  <territory>Chancella</territory>
  <territory>Theraland</territory>
  </position>
  </positions>


I'd suggest something like this solution, which breaks up each of the 2/3 bonus areas:

Gp 1: Sarle; Offmar; Azuran; Hellnar; Cancallus Desert; Sarabell; Jenua

Gp 2: Itheria; Rowamar; Chancella; Tryanar; Iskul; Servasius; Morovia

Gp 3: Theraland; Dunmar; Arleus; Ifnal; Tuskaroja; Scaralact; Alus
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:09 am

MrBenn wrote:Currently there are 3 terrs in each starting position:
Code: Select all
- <positions>
- <position>
  <territory>Sarle</territory>
  <territory>Arleus</territory>
  <territory>Dalmus</territory>
  </position>
- <position>
  <territory>Itheria</territory>
  <territory>Azuran</territory>
  <territory>Chunjaris</territory>
  </position>
- <position>
  <territory>Scaralact</territory>
  <territory>Chancella</territory>
  <territory>Theraland</territory>
  </position>
  </positions>


I'd suggest something like this solution, which breaks up each of the 2/3 bonus areas:

Gp 1: Sarle; Offmar; Azuran; Hellnar; Cancallus Desert; Sarabell; Jenua

Gp 2: Itheria; Rowamar; Chancella; Tryanar; Iskul; Servasius; Morovia

Gp 3: Theraland; Dunmar; Arleus; Ifnal; Tuskaroja; Scaralact; Alus


Well, I was waiting for TBK to make a suggestion, since up to this point, with regard to XML, I have been more of a secretary than a designer. However, I did come up with my own solution, using 5 starting positions consisting of 4 regions each, which I present below.

Code: Select all
<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>Dalmus</territory> <!-- position A-1 -->
      <territory>Arleus</territory> <!-- position A-2 -->
      <territory>Illania</territory> <!-- position A-3 -->
      <territory>Tuskaroja</territory> <!-- position A-4 -->
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Caspiar</territory> <!-- position B-1 -->
      <territory>Chunjaris</territory> <!-- position B-2 -->
      <territory>Azuran</territory> <!-- position B-3 -->
      <territory>Alus</territory> <!-- position B-4 -->
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Tyross</territory> <!-- position C-1 -->
      <territory>Theraland</territory> <!-- position C-2 -->
      <territory>Chancella</territory> <!-- position C-3 -->
      <territory>Cancallus Desert</territory> <!-- position C-4 -->
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Cratica</territory> <!-- position D-1 -->
      <territory>Sarle</territory> <!-- position D-2 -->
      <territory>Jenua</territory> <!-- position D-3 -->
      <territory>Iskul</territory> <!-- position D-4 -->
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Solaria</territory> <!-- position E-1 -->
      <territory>Itheria</territory> <!-- position E-2 -->
      <territory>Morovia</territory> <!-- position E-3 -->
      <territory>Narula</territory> <!-- position E-4 -->
   </position>
</positions>


A flaw in MrBenn's plan that I feel I must point out is that it greatly favours whoever gets the third starting position with several regions in the road zones: 1 of 3 in the Chunjaris-Theraland road, 2 of 4 in the Hellengar-Theraland road, and 2 of 5 in the Ifnal-South Lyalia road. I believe I have achieved a better balance across the road zones.

To help evaluate these alternatives, I thought it would be a good idea to show everyone MrBenn's bonus probability spreadsheet for each setup: what we have now, what MrBenn suggests, and what I propose.

What we have now (3 starting positions with 3 regions in each):
Click image to enlarge.
image


What MrBenn suggests (3 starting positions with 7 regions in each):
Click image to enlarge.
image


What I propose (5 starting positions with 4 regions in each):
Click image to enlarge.
image
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby The Bison King on Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:52 pm

ender516 wrote:
MrBenn wrote:Currently there are 3 terrs in each starting position:
Code: Select all
- <positions>
- <position>
  <territory>Sarle</territory>
  <territory>Arleus</territory>
  <territory>Dalmus</territory>
  </position>
- <position>
  <territory>Itheria</territory>
  <territory>Azuran</territory>
  <territory>Chunjaris</territory>
  </position>
- <position>
  <territory>Scaralact</territory>
  <territory>Chancella</territory>
  <territory>Theraland</territory>
  </position>
  </positions>


I'd suggest something like this solution, which breaks up each of the 2/3 bonus areas:

Gp 1: Sarle; Offmar; Azuran; Hellnar; Cancallus Desert; Sarabell; Jenua

Gp 2: Itheria; Rowamar; Chancella; Tryanar; Iskul; Servasius; Morovia

Gp 3: Theraland; Dunmar; Arleus; Ifnal; Tuskaroja; Scaralact; Alus


Well, I was waiting for TBK to make a suggestion, since up to this point, with regard to XML, I have been more of a secretary than a designer. However, I did come up with my own solution, using 5 starting positions consisting of 4 regions each, which I present below.

Code: Select all
<positions>
   <position>
      <territory>Dalmus</territory> <!-- position A-1 -->
      <territory>Arleus</territory> <!-- position A-2 -->
      <territory>Illania</territory> <!-- position A-3 -->
      <territory>Tuskaroja</territory> <!-- position A-4 -->
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Caspiar</territory> <!-- position B-1 -->
      <territory>Chunjaris</territory> <!-- position B-2 -->
      <territory>Azuran</territory> <!-- position B-3 -->
      <territory>Alus</territory> <!-- position B-4 -->
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Tyross</territory> <!-- position C-1 -->
      <territory>Theraland</territory> <!-- position C-2 -->
      <territory>Chancella</territory> <!-- position C-3 -->
      <territory>Cancallus Desert</territory> <!-- position C-4 -->
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Cratica</territory> <!-- position D-1 -->
      <territory>Sarle</territory> <!-- position D-2 -->
      <territory>Jenua</territory> <!-- position D-3 -->
      <territory>Iskul</territory> <!-- position D-4 -->
   </position>
   <position>
      <territory>Solaria</territory> <!-- position E-1 -->
      <territory>Itheria</territory> <!-- position E-2 -->
      <territory>Morovia</territory> <!-- position E-3 -->
      <territory>Narula</territory> <!-- position E-4 -->
   </position>
</positions>


A flaw in MrBenn's plan that I feel I must point out is that it greatly favours whoever gets the third starting position with several regions in the road zones: 1 of 3 in the Chunjaris-Theraland road, 2 of 4 in the Hellengar-Theraland road, and 2 of 5 in the Ifnal-South Lyalia road. I believe I have achieved a better balance across the road zones.

To help evaluate these alternatives, I thought it would be a good idea to show everyone MrBenn's bonus probability spreadsheet for each setup: what we have now, what MrBenn suggests, and what I propose.

What we have now (3 starting positions with 3 regions in each):
Click image to enlarge.
image


What MrBenn suggests (3 starting positions with 7 regions in each):
Click image to enlarge.
image


What I propose (5 starting positions with 4 regions in each):
Click image to enlarge.
image


I'm not going to lie... I barely understand this...

Gp 1: Sarle; Offmar; Azuran; Hellnar; Cancallus Desert; Sarabell; Jenua

Gp 2: Itheria; Rowamar; Chancella; Tryanar; Iskul; Servasius; Morovia

Gp 3: Theraland; Dunmar; Arleus; Ifnal; Tuskaroja; Scaralact; Alus


The problem I have this is that this doesn't block the Islands from being dropped
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby The Bison King on Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:02 pm

Here's my solution (a variation on Benn's)

Group #1) Arleus; Caspiar; Illania; Dunmar; Narula; Dalmu; Cryagnotica
Group #2 Chancella; Jenua; Garrea; Tyross; Sarabell; Theraland; Cancallus Desert
Group #3) Solaria; Azuran; Rowamar; Cratica; Talus; Northern Frontier; Sarle

I'm pretty sure that will prevent any of the small bonuses from being dropped. I'd like it if someone could check it though, since I'm not an expert and I didn't use a probability calculator.
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby Halmir on Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:28 am

I like the map - just a quick note that it's shown as Aliskar on the map but Aliskar Plains in the dropdowns (sorry if this has already been pointed out, I'm not going to wade through 35 pages to check though :) )
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:44 pm

Can we get an update, or a firm decision please. This has been sitting around for too long without any progress now...
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby The Bison King on Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:50 pm

The Bison King wrote:Here's my solution (a variation on Benn's)

Group #1) Arleus; Caspiar; Illania; Dunmar; Narula; Dalmu; Cryagnotica
Group #2 Chancella; Jenua; Garrea; Tyross; Sarabell; Theraland; Cancallus Desert
Group #3) Solaria; Azuran; Rowamar; Cratica; Talus; Northern Frontier; Sarle

I'm pretty sure that will prevent any of the small bonuses from being dropped. I'd like it if someone could check it though, since I'm not an expert and I didn't use a probability calculator.

MrBenn wrote:Can we get an update, or a firm decision please. This has been sitting around for too long without any progress now...


I was hoping to get some feedback on this. If this works then make then Ender can make the changes and we can update.
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Hi, my name is the Bison King, and I am COMPLETELY aware of DaFont!
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