Manual troops not on maps with starting positions

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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby psychobkrazy on Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:31 pm

I think the manual deployment should stay the way it is. Who cares if you start with neutrals surrounding you or not. There is still a certain strategy to placing your troops. If you do not think so then I invite you to play me on WWII Poland. :lol:
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby AAFitz on Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:54 pm

onbekende wrote:Age of Realms (1, 2, 3)
City Mogul
New World
Feudal Epic
Feudal War
St Patricksday - not playable
(Das Schloss)
(Peloponnesian War)

that should be an accurate list of maps that are clearly not maps for the manual troop placement medal. (if I missed one, it means I didn't pkay that one yet, which is not many maps), 2 last maps are in Beta.

there are also some that are borderline cause of either the objectives (aka if you don't read carefully, you corner yourself with a manual deploy)or cause of amount of territories (who would even start a manual drop on those?)


lol, you might as well delete the map das schloss if you delete manual from it. Personally, I think manual on it is the only way to play it. I honestly like that setting so much im pretty sure Id just quit CC if it was removed.

and unless i misread map rank, you have never even tried manual on das schloss, so you essentially have no idea what you are talking about.
Last edited by AAFitz on Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Falkomagno on Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:56 pm

In jamaica it should be not available the manual deployment
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby natty dread on Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:06 am

Sigh... I guess I have to reiterate this. Whether a map is suitable for manual or not should be game type dependent. For example some maps might not be suitable for 5 player singles manual, but could be suitable for 4 player doubles. The system I proposed would take this in account, and should be simple to code:

to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.

In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby AndyDufresne on Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:55 am

That suggestion is a little more difficult than you think, Natty_dread. But I know lackattack is looking into somethings, and we'll see what happens for his Medals Update Part 2. :)


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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby The Voice on Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:27 pm

Unlike two-player assassin/terminator games, deciding what maps don't matter whether or not manual deployment is set might be very subjectively based. It concerns me because, while manual troop deployment may not look like much on some of the maps, it makes quite a big difference, because getting the right start plays a huge factor.

If I'm the only one who thinks this, then I will gladly step down from my position, but you may want to ask around more (i.e. reach to players outside this forum listing) and see how they feel. I might be biased because I play pelo war with manual deployment, but I can honestly say it has nothing to do with a medal (I couldn't care less about getting another medal, and if I were stripped from all my medals, I wouldn't complain). It has everything to do with controlling how I start.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby onbekende on Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:49 am

AAFitz wrote:lol, you might as well delete the map das schloss if you delete manual from it. Personally, I think manual on it is the only way to play it. I honestly like that setting so much im pretty sure Id just quit CC if it was removed.

and unless i misread map rank, you have never even tried manual on das schloss, so you essentially have no idea what you are talking about.

I was merely listing mps that I felt had no meaning of being considerd for the manual troop placement medal, must say I haven't played Das Schloss alot but thats halfly cause of my playing style and me being a freeby ;D
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby qwertylpc on Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:32 pm

using manual freestyle on maps allows me to go first most of the games in public games which i enjoy

also on maps such as the aors there is a huge difference from having 2 3's or a 1 and a 5 especially on aor2 where there is a +3 aoutodeploy on a castle

another map ww2 poland has a major effect of manual 1v1

there are too many situations and the only real problems are on city mogul 1v1 manual so either just do that or get rid of the medal, it is used for strategy and not for a stupid medal most people dont care unless your blitz and need to have the most medals on cc
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby AAFitz on Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:48 am

onbekende wrote:
AAFitz wrote:lol, you might as well delete the map das schloss if you delete manual from it. Personally, I think manual on it is the only way to play it. I honestly like that setting so much im pretty sure Id just quit CC if it was removed.

and unless i misread map rank, you have never even tried manual on das schloss, so you essentially have no idea what you are talking about.

I was merely listing mps that I felt had no meaning of being considerd for the manual troop placement medal, must say I haven't played Das Schloss alot but thats halfly cause of my playing style and me being a freeby ;D


Im not complaining about you not playing it...only commenting that you have no idea if manual should be considered for it because you have no idea how much it is relevant to the map and that's fully because you've never even tried it.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby AAFitz on Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:51 am

The Voice wrote:Unlike two-player assassin/terminator games, deciding what maps don't matter whether or not manual deployment is set might be very subjectively based. It concerns me because, while manual troop deployment may not look like much on some of the maps, it makes quite a big difference, because getting the right start plays a huge factor.

If I'm the only one who thinks this, then I will gladly step down from my position, but you may want to ask around more (i.e. reach to players outside this forum listing) and see how they feel. I might be biased because I play pelo war with manual deployment, but I can honestly say it has nothing to do with a medal (I couldn't care less about getting another medal, and if I were stripped from all my medals, I wouldn't complain). It has everything to do with controlling how I start.


You are not hardly the only one that feels that way. Myself I dont care what maps are counted on the medals...that is hardly as relevant as actually deleting options from games for the sake of medals, which seems ridiculous. If however, the manual drop does not matter in any way, than I suppose deleting it from those games makes sense, but again, the cure seems far worse than the disease, and having manual on games that is unnecessary has nearly no impact whatsoever in most cases.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby natty dread on Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:30 am

Again, if my suggestion is followed, then the only settings/maps blocked will be those where you will have no chance to deploy manually or you can only choose 1 territory to deploy on. This won't affect your favorite maps so stop complaining ;)
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby alstergren on Tue Jun 22, 2010 12:46 pm

natty_dread wrote:Again, if my suggestion is followed, then the only settings/maps blocked will be those where you will have no chance to deploy manually or you can only choose 1 territory to deploy on. This won't affect your favorite maps so stop complaining


Agree - manual deployment has a strategic element on maps like New World and WWII Poland (which has been discussed) but not Citi Mogul where you don't deploy troops.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby SirSebstar on Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:43 am

i do not want my medals revoked
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby Arama86n on Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:51 am

Don't like mogul, but have gotten an invite or two, and accepted. first thing that came up in game chat was somone ridiculing game-creater for making it manual to get medal, so obviously it happens.

Is this a big deal? I suppose not, but I don't see the big deal in closing the loop-hole that makes makes the medal worthless. They shut down termiantor 1v1 abuse and revoked (a fair call imo) I don't see why not here.

If somone argues they want to play Pelo manual, then perhaps it can be coded so you can play manual on Pelo, Mogul etc -but it jsut doesn't count towards medal.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby wisemanpsemc on Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:08 pm

onbekende wrote:Age of Realms (1, 2, 3)
City Mogul
New World
Feudal Epic
Feudal War
St Patricksday - not playable
(Das Schloss)
(Peloponnesian War)

that should be an accurate list of maps that are clearly not maps for the manual troop placement medal. (if I missed one, it means I didn't pkay that one yet, which is not many maps), 2 last maps are in Beta.

there are also some that are borderline cause of either the objectives (aka if you don't read carefully, you corner yourself with a manual deploy)or cause of amount of territories (who would even start a manual drop on those?)


AOR 1,2,3 - for 3 players or less and teams gives you 2 starting positions. Getting rid of manual would change the game play. 4 or more players manual is useless.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby rdsrds2120 on Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:55 am

Yeah, I do a lot of 1v1 AoR2 manual, and it's nice to put them on one spot to start. Let's the game progress quicker I think. Otherwise, I'm in complete support for this.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby eddie2 on Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:24 pm

Master Fenrir wrote:City Mogul is a definite yes, the others I can see, too. Also, I believe that Jamaica is the same as City Mogul, where you have no troops to deploy. I haven't played Jamaica with manual, but one of my friends said this is the case.

One thing I would like to say, though, is that WWII Poland, although a conquest map, is greatly affected by the manual/automatic setting because there aren't as many neutrals between the bases as there are in Pelop & Feudals.

Those who know this map well will tell you there is a difference in gameplay when playing this map on each setting. I would request that you don't eliminate manual deployment as an option for WWII Poland.


this being said why can't jamaica map be changed to when you manual deploy you can put all on one region it would make it more fun
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby greenoaks on Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:39 pm

natty_dread wrote:Sigh... I guess I have to reiterate this. Whether a map is suitable for manual or not should be game type dependent. For example some maps might not be suitable for 5 player singles manual, but could be suitable for 4 player doubles. The system I proposed would take this in account, and should be simple to code:

to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.

In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.

i do not understand the bolded bit

would 1v1 on Pelo, the Feudals & AoR2 allow manual under your rules or not ?
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby PLAYER57832 on Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:23 pm

rdsrds2120 wrote:Yeah, I do a lot of 1v1 AoR2 manual, and it's nice to put them on one spot to start. Let's the game progress quicker I think. Otherwise, I'm in complete support for this.

Fuedal 1-3 player have the same issue.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby rdsrds2120 on Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:02 pm

So this question remains:

"For what games do medals get stripped for?"

Also, do we have the ability to just ban certain maps from being manual, or can we do it per settings as well? If so, what are all the combinations of maps and settings that we don't want manual troops to be allocated?

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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby natty dread on Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:24 am

rdsrds2120 wrote:So this question remains:

"For what games do medals get stripped for?"

Also, do we have the ability to just ban certain maps from being manual, or can we do it per settings as well? If so, what are all the combinations of maps and settings that we don't want manual troops to be allocated?

-rd


I'm going to say it again:

  • to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.
  • In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.

Per map+gametype combination, each player starts with a certain number of droppable (non-neutral) territories. Of those territories, a certain number of territories are coded as "starting positions" in the XML, and those starting point territories will not be available for manual deploy - they will always start with the amount of troops specified in the XML, manual or not. Thus follows the 2 rules I have specified:

In a singles game, you must have at least 2 territories in the start - otherwise you only have a choice of 1 territory to drop, and manual deploy is a moot point. Also at least one of those territories must be a non-starting-position territory, because if they are all coded as starting positions, the troops will not become available for manual deployment. Got it so far? Good.

Now, in a team game, the rules should be a bit different, because you can also opt to drop on your teammates. Thus, the 2 territory minimum doesn't apply, because the team will always have a total number of territories of at least 2. But nonetheless each team member must have at least one non-starting-position territory, just like in singles games.

---

Therefore, each map should be considered separately for singles/team games and taking the number of players in account, because the amount of starting territories also varies according to the number of players.

I think the easiest way would be to write a script that analyzes the XML, gets the starting territory amounts for each gametype/player amount/map combination, and then decides whether the map is viable for manual deployment or not. ChipV, I'm looking at you ;)
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby alex951 on Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:08 pm

This seems like a suggestion with good intentions, but why ban certain maps? why not just avoid specific maps with specific settings?
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby 40kguy on Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:54 pm

i think you should be able to play manual just not have it count towards the medal.


my reasons
1.there is actually different strategy in the manual when there 1v1. for examble, i cant win aor2 when i play manual but when i play automatic i win.
2.on city mougal it gives people 5 minuets/24 hours to make the turn so someone dosent get a cheap shot at you when your not in the game.
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby greenoaks on Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:32 am

natty_dread wrote:
rdsrds2120 wrote:So this question remains:

"For what games do medals get stripped for?"

Also, do we have the ability to just ban certain maps from being manual, or can we do it per settings as well? If so, what are all the combinations of maps and settings that we don't want manual troops to be allocated?

-rd


I'm going to say it again:

  • to allow for manual deployment, for singles games a map must have for each player at least 2 territories that do not start neutral, of which at least 1 territory must not be coded as a starting position.
  • In the case of team games, the 2 territories minimum doesn't apply, but each player must still start with at least 1 territory that is not coded as starting position.

Per map+gametype combination, each player starts with a certain number of droppable (non-neutral) territories. Of those territories, a certain number of territories are coded as "starting positions" in the XML, and those starting point territories will not be available for manual deploy - they will always start with the amount of troops specified in the XML, manual or not. Thus follows the 2 rules I have specified:

In a singles game, you must have at least 2 territories in the start - otherwise you only have a choice of 1 territory to drop, and manual deploy is a moot point. Also at least one of those territories must be a non-starting-position territory, because if they are all coded as starting positions, the troops will not become available for manual deployment. Got it so far? Good.

Now, in a team game, the rules should be a bit different, because you can also opt to drop on your teammates. Thus, the 2 territory minimum doesn't apply, because the team will always have a total number of territories of at least 2. But nonetheless each team member must have at least one non-starting-position territory, just like in singles games.

---

Therefore, each map should be considered separately for singles/team games and taking the number of players in account, because the amount of starting territories also varies according to the number of players.

I think the easiest way would be to write a script that analyzes the XML, gets the starting territory amounts for each gametype/player amount/map combination, and then decides whether the map is viable for manual deployment or not. ChipV, I'm looking at you ;)

we do not know which maps get coded as starting positions so it doesn't matter how many times you say this

if you provide us with a list, we can see if your proposal is reasonable (and in my case understand your proposal better)
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Re: Manual troops, not all maps [suggestion]

Postby natty dread on Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:48 pm

greenoaks wrote:we do not know which maps get coded as starting positions so it doesn't matter how many times you say this

if you provide us with a list, we can see if your proposal is reasonable (and in my case understand your proposal better)


The XML:s for all maps are public information. Unfortunately I do not really have the time to parse them into a list for your convenience... if you really can't tell when starting positions are used, here's a few tips:

- when you start a manual game, do you see territories that still drop automatically, ie. not as 1:s, but with a set number, in the same way as in automatic? Those territories are starting positions.
- if a non-neutral territory at the start of the game (manual or auto) has any other amount of troops than 3, it is a starting position.
- umm... that's it actually. ;)
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