[Site] Scoreboard-MVP of the Month

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Its these a good idea?

Yes
78
72%
No
30
28%
 
Total votes : 108

Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-medal)

Postby Qwert on Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:21 pm

well these is third idea for mvp calculation.
Third Possible opcion for MVP points
Every body have same start 0,and counting only number of defeating opponents(ofcourse you must win a game).
Example:
2 player games-get 1 point for win
3 player games-get 2 point for win
4 player games-get 3 point for win
5 player games-get 4 point for win
6 player games-get 5 point for win
7 player games-get 6 point for win
8 player games-get 7 point for win
-----------------------------------
2 Doubles games-every team member get 1 point for win
3 Doubles games-every team member get 2 point for win
4 Doubles games-every team member get 3 point for win
-----------------------------------------------------
Triples games-every team member get 1 point for win
-----------------------------------------------------
Quads games-every team member get 1 point for win
------------------------------------------------------
Rating calculation:Example-number of points/number of games
------------------------------------------------------------------
Need to have at least minimum 10 finished games to be candidate for MVP.
----------------------------------------------------------------
New recruit will not be calculated in win or MVP score.
----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Qwert on Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:02 pm

wow,im almost forget on these sugestion, its lost in forum.
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Qwert on Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:07 pm

now im thinking on third possible formula for give point for mvp. These will be like quality point -high ranked opponent-more points-low ranked opponent less point.
Also for MVP will need to count only unique opponents for one month, because someone can abuse ,playing with same players for these avhivement. Now i need to figure how will formula work.
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Qwert on Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:21 pm

Posible formula no4.
rank value:
fieldmarshal--------------------16 point
Brigadier=General---------------14 point
Major=Colonel-------------------12 point
Lieutenant=Captain--------------10 point
Sergeant=Sergeant 1st Class------8 point
Corporal=Corporal 1st Class------6 point
Cadet-Private-Private 1st Class--4 point
New Recruit-Cook-----------------2 point
---------------------------------------------
For mvp points are calculate when you defeate unique opponent only once. Like you get,you also can lost points in mvp montly scoreboard.

distribution points betwen ranks.
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Re: Two SCoreboards

Postby Commander62890 on Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:42 pm

I only read page 1, Qwert, but this was my impression as soon as I read your suggestion:

BENJIKAT IS DEAD wrote:If I start the month on 3000 pts and you on 1500, then if we just play against 1500 pt players, then you need to win half as many games as me in order to have the same net gain. Therefore is I was serious about gaining the monthly prize, then the lower my starting score the better - hence my comment about points dumping.


I don't really understand your recent posts, Qwert - does it alleviate the problem that Benjikat discussed?

... The problem being that it will be beneficial to point dump at the end of the month in order to start at a low rank at the start of the next month.
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Qwert on Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:56 pm

yes,i try to fix that,with new mvp formulas-these new will prevent point dumping,because will calculate diferent, and only unique opponents will calculate for mvp. These mean if you play with me,and you win, you will get 10 points for win, but our next game ,in situation that you win again,will not be calculate,because in that way prevent another problem,point farming.
And to not forget everybody start with 1000 points,because like you can get,you can lost points.
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Commander62890 on Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:09 pm

qwert wrote:yes,i try to fix that,with new mvp formulas-these new will prevent point dumping,because will calculate diferent, and only unique opponents will calculate for mvp. These mean if you play with me,and you win, you will get 10 points for win, but our next game ,in situation that you win again,will not be calculate,because in that way prevent another problem,point farming.

This will decrease point farming in a very small way, sure. But point farming does not usually happen because one great player is targeting one poor player - it happens when one great player is targeting a whole mass of poor players. The unique opponent portion is interesting, but it will not have a huge effect on point farming.

As for point dumping? No, it has absolutely nothing to do with that. It has nothing to do with the fact that you get less points the higher you are, so it is beneficial to start each month at as low a rank as possible.


qwert wrote:And to not forget everybody start with 1000 points,because like you can get,you can lost points.

I'm sorry, but what's your point?

Yes, everyone starts with 1,000 points. Some people have the ability to get much higher than others.

If a high ranking player wants to make MVP, they will dump all their points by the end of a given month.

Then, at the start of the next month, they will be a skilled player at a low rank.
They will gain points as rapidly as possible in an effort to make MVP.

In the next month, they will have a lot of points. They will dump their points and lose their MVP status (it's impossible to hold it two months in a row), because it will prepare them for the next month...

In the next month, they will once again start as a skilled low rank.
They will rapidly gain points in an attempt to make MVP.

The best way to reach MVP as a high ranker is to dump your points every other month.

This will give them the best chance possible of making MVP, which they will try for in the other 6 months of the year.

Do you understand what I am saying, Qwert?
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Re: Two Scoreboards-MVP of the Month(description page 1-post

Postby Commander62890 on Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:19 pm

Mr Changsha wrote:I think it is a great idea!

It might be better to consider this idea in the sense of a scoreboard that is actually much more for the lower/middle rank players. It is quite true that a brigadier has got zero (near enough) chance of winning MVP, but it would be something the 1,000-2,000 players could really get into.

Also, it would be a handy feature to see which players are storming through the middle ranks.

So your average players have got something to aim at while those at the peak of CC can treat it with the disdain they in general treat most things that aren't about them.

Therefore making everybody happy ;)

This is an interesting post. He understands that high ranks have absolutely no chance of ever winning this medal...

And yet, he still supports it because it he thinks it could be fun for low ranks.

Interesting... ;)

I'm still reading this thread; only on page 3 right now

My big problem with this so far is that Qwert seems to think that this will be a level playing field, because everyone starts at 0. The fact is that everyone does not start at 0, because the number of points you win in a given game depends on your actual score.

I'll probably be back with more later on.
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Commander62890 on Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:38 pm

Okay, so it looks like the formula was changed around pages 4 and 5.

I should not have posted until I read the whole thread ;)

So, "Option 2..." it will be even for every rank, huh? I can get on board with that.

I read something in there that said if you beat someone with the same rank as you, you get no points. That has been changed, right?

And what if you beat the Conqueror? Does he count as Field Marshal (16 points), or more?

Oh, and one last important question: Do you lose points for losing? And, if so, how much?
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Qwert on Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:12 am

Commander62890 -first and importan- i give sugestion who can be interesting to be implemented(mine thinking), now second what its more importan its that people like these.
Third also importan,its that i together with all other find right formula, who will decrease all possible abuse in these category, that why i give more and more diferent formulas. And its good that you are give your thinking abouth these.
In first page i present all diferent option for calculate mvp. With last option i present possible solution to decrease point farming,because playing with low ranked players will give you low number of points- and these mean if you play with cook ( new recruit not compete for mvp) like field marshal for win you can get 2 points,but if you lost against cook you will lost 16 points. That why i call these quality ranking.
MVP Scoreboard are separate scoreboard from Main Scoreboard, and i though that every player start with 1000 points(or maybe can start with 500 points,these can be change) and in every next mont these can be reset to 1000 again,because you start mvp for next month.
Also in these formula, you can play with one player 5-10-15 time,but only first win are count for mvp scoreboard(unique opponents), so i think that these will be prevent any possible abuse .
If you have some ideas please you welcome to present,so we can explore more sugestions.
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Qwert on Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:18 am

"This will decrease point farming in a very small way, sure. But point farming does not usually happen because one great player is targeting one poor player - it happens when one great player is targeting a whole mass of poor players. The unique opponent portion is interesting, but it will not have a huge effect on point farming."
well with new possible formula , its better to play with high ranked players instead with low ranked players. Actualy for everybody its better to play with high ranked players.

And what if you beat the Conqueror? Does he count as Field Marshal (16 points), or more?"
yes i forget conqueror-well he its in same rank with fieldmarshal.
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Commander62890 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:21 pm

Do you lose points for losing? If so, how many?
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Qwert on Sat Dec 18, 2010 2:32 pm

"Do you lose points for losing? If so, how many?"
hmm,i think that point table give you answer. Ofcourse you losing points.
Like i say if you are fieldmarshal and you play against cook(i assume that fieldmarshal are experience player, who are above cook and know great strategy) you will get 2 mvp point, and cook will lost 2 mvp point. But if you in any way lost against cook,then you will lost 16 mvp point and cook will get 16 mvp point. In that way if you realy want to be mvp, you need to play with high ranked players,instead to play with low ranked players, because MVP can not be someone who are great in defeating big number of cooks and other low ranked players. I belive that in these way (quality ranking points) will prevent that someone can abuse these system, and that these achivement get some value.
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Commander62890 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:09 pm

qwert wrote:"Do you lose points for losing? If so, how many?"
hmm,i think that point table give you answer. Ofcourse you losing points.
Like i say if you are fieldmarshal and you win against cook, you will get 2 mvp point, and cook will lost 2 mvp point. But if you in any way lost against cook,then you will lost 16 mvp point and cook will get 16 mvp point.

Ah, now I see. I was right all along.

It does benefit you to be a low rank. The lower rank you are at the start of the month, the better chance you have to be MVP.

This will cause some people to dump points in order to get a better chance of being MVP.

But the real problem is that it is unfair for high rankers; they will have very little chance of being MVP.

Thank you for your time, Qwert... I'll probably be voting "No," unless we can come up with something different.

Of course, the flip side is, if we make everyone equal, it will lead to point farming... we cannot make it so that you win 20 points no matter who you play.

It may be that there is no right answer, Qwert.

But the right answer cannot be the one you have put forth, because you will end up with a winner who probably started at Sergeant or lower at the start of each month.

Which, of course, is extremely flawed... high ranks should at least have a chance of being MVP
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Qwert on Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:15 pm

Ah, now I see. I was right all along.

It does benefit you to be a low rank. The lower rank you are at the start of the month, the better chance you have to be MVP.

This will cause some people to dump points in order to get a better chance of being MVP.

But the real problem is that it is unfair for high rankers; they will have very little chance of being MVP.

Thank you for your time, Qwert... I'll probably be voting "No," unless we can come up with something different.

Of course, the flip side is, if we make everyone equal, it will lead to point farming... we cannot make it so that you win 20 points no matter who you play.

It may be that there is no right answer, Qwert.

But the right answer cannot be the one you have put forth, because you will end up with a winner who probably started at Sergeant or lower at the start of each month.

Which, of course, is extremely flawed... high ranks should at least have a chance of being MVP

Huh,i dont know what words to use to understand each other.
First-in page 1 you have several diferent option for calculate mvp points-one of these its to calculate same like main scoreboard,only get points for one month.
Second have hes own calculation, like 3rd sugestion,and also 4th sugestion (last) have totaly diferent calculation for mvp points,and its look that you put all sugestion in on box,because now we get confused.
Just go in page 1 and look each sugestion separate,and not together, because they are not same.
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Qwert on Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:20 pm

im arange first post to be more understand
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Commander62890 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:40 pm

qwert wrote:Huh,i dont know what words to use to understand each other.
First-in page 1 you have several diferent option for calculate mvp points-one of these its to calculate same like main scoreboard,only get points for one month.
Second have hes own calculation, like 3rd sugestion,and also 4th sugestion (last) have totaly diferent calculation for mvp points,and its look that you put all sugestion in on box,because now we get confused.
Just go in page 1 and look each sugestion separate,and not together, because they are not same.

Okay, I looked at page 1.

Option 1, I'm assuming, is to use the normal CC scoreboard

Options 2+3 are almost exactly the same; in Option 2, you get 1 point per defeat, and in Option 3, you get 5. It makes no difference; they're the same. The big problem with Options 2+3 is that they encourage point farming, which you know.

Option 4 is what we have been discussing, because you know what is wrong with Options 2+3.

You do not seem to understand what is wrong with Option 4, even though I have been saying it over and over and over.

Option 4 is very much like the current scoreboard.

It makes it hard to farm because you get less points from low ranks than you do from high ranks. The same is true of our current scoreboard.

However, just like on our current scoreboard, it is harder for high ranks to gain points. That is fine for a scoreboard, but when you're talking about the winner getting a medal, it is not okay.

Here, try thinking about it from a high rank's perspective:

Here I am, up around 4500. I am incredibly skilled, and maintain my score despite winning 5-10 points per win and losing 30-40 for a loss. I usually stay around 4500, but sometimes dip to as low as 4000 and go up as high as 4700.

In a given month, I can gain only about 700 points at best; I can't seem to get higher than 4700.

Now, I find out that I could get a medal by gaining the most points possible in a given month. I want the medal, but also want to keep my score. I decide never to drop my score in order to get it, and never have a chance to even come close... despite being a far better player than many of the MVP winners.

That is what will happen to most high ranks.

But, for argument's sake, let's say I do decide to go for it.

I play hundreds of speed assassin doodles and drop my score all the way down to 1200.

Now, I am ready to go for it. I gain 3,000 (regular scoreboard) points in the next month and am the MVP.

But now, I'm at 4,200 and have no chance of being MVP again. I can't gain 3,000 points in the next month, obviously.

So, in the next month, I drop my score down to Sergeant again in order to prepare for my MVP run.

And in the next month, with a score of 1200...
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Commander62890 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:50 pm

Do you really not see what is wrong with Option 4, Qwert?

It the same problem that we'll come upon if we use the regular scoreboard.



It is unfair to high ranks because it is harder for them to gain points.

Should not the MVP, if we have one, be the player who is the best at gaining points?

Sure, a few high ranks will point dump in order to go for the medal.

But why should we force them to do that? And what about the other high ranks, who will never even come close to getting this medal?
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Commander62890 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:53 pm

If we had to implement this, I would rather see Options 2 or 3 be chosen rather than 1 or 4.

I would rather have point farming be encouraged than have an unequal playing field.

Although, in the end, it's probably best if none of the 4 were chosen.

All of them have cons that outweigh the pros.
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Commander62890 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:55 pm

Let me know if you still think that we have has a miscommunication, Qwert.


Or if you still think that Option 4 would not make it harder for high ranks to get this medal.
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby TheForgivenOne on Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:14 pm

Okay guys, enough of the double/triple/quad posting.

If you want to add more to what you said, edit your first post
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Commander62890 on Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:30 pm

qwert wrote:Look-You are high ranked player,right, and option 4 give you chance to be mvp, just need to defeat high ranked players.
Yes, but a lower rank has a better chance of being MVP when they play high ranked players. The lower rank will lose less points when they lose.

qwert wrote:option for have nothing with point dumping, because if you drop to be sergeant and you play with colonel, then you will get same points like colonel vs colonel.
If a Colonel point dumps and becomes a sergeant, and then loses to a Colonel, he only loses 8 points. If he were still a Colonel, he would lose 12 points.

qwert wrote:If you want to be mvp,you need to play with high ranked, not with low ranked player.

Yes, I understand.

I understand that.

But if you are a General playing a cook, you stand to win 2 points and risk 16. If you're a cook playing a cook, you stand to win 2 points and risk 2. This is not fair to the General; everyone should be on a level playing field.

qwert wrote:I give you examle-major vs major vs colonel-and colonel win get 24 mvp points.
Assume that colonel belive if he drop points in regular board,and belive that he will get more mvp point if he become sergeant-totaly wrong
major vs major vs sergeant-sergeant win get 24 point.

AND WHAT IF HE LOSES?

If A COLONEL LOSES, HE LOSES 12 POINTS.

IF A SERGEANT LOSES, HE LOSES ONLY 8.

THEREFORE, IT IS BENEFICIAL TO BE A LOWER RANK WHEN THE MONTH STARTS. WHAT DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT?


qwert wrote:Now these prevent point dumping,because you dont need to be sergeant to get these number of points.

Ah, but since you are risking less points as a low rank, it is beneficial for a high rank to point dump every other month to become a low rank.

qwert wrote:That why i call quality ranking- If you are good and play with best,you will have big chance to be mvp,but if you try in easy way(playing with low ranked) then your chances to be mvp its low,even if you beat almsot all low ranked players,you will get less points. These second prevent farming.

Right, formula 4 prevents farming.

I FUCKING UNDERSTAND THAT.

I'VE SAID IT BEFORE. We must stop discussing that.

What we need to discuss is the fact that you don't seem to understand that because a low rank LOSES LESS POINTS, he has an advantage over the high rank.

qwert wrote:With Formula 4-playing big number with high ranked player give you bect chance to be mvp.

Yes, playing against high ranks is good because you gain more points.

I understand that.

But YOU must understand that BEING a high rank SUCKS

Because you LOSE MORE POINTS IF YOU LOSE than you would as a low rank.

Therefore, HIGH RANKS MUST POINT DUMP

and BECOME LOW RANKS

In order to have ANY CHANCE at MVP





Please tell me that you finally understand... because this is killing me


I have a feeling you'll understand after reading this...


Then we can finally discuss whether or not this should be implemented DESPITE THE FACT THAT IT IS MUCH HARDER, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE, FOR HIGH RANKS TO BE MVP.

It is the issue that Mr Changsha brought up on page 3 or 4, and that I reposted on Page 9 or so.

We cannot discuss that until you understand that high ranks have a serious and crippling disadvantage.
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Qwert on Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:15 am

i must say,that i first time heard that high ranked players are in big disatvantage.

"Then we can finally discuss whether or not this should be implemented DESPITE THE FACT THAT IT IS MUCH HARDER, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE, FOR HIGH RANKS TO BE MVP."
These is suggestion,its not any kind of order to be implemented.
I realy want to eliminate point dumping,and also i want to prevent point farming, because if i put to all be equal,then high ranked player,will play as much he can with low ranked,because win its secured,and i want to prevent that low ranked players be pigeons in plate.
Also if you start like sergeant, these not meant that you will end month like sergeant, because in half month you can become colonel,and situation its change, then you will not lost 8,you will lost more points.
Now we can disscuse over and over again,but if you have some ideas,please present, so that we can explore more.
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby Commander62890 on Sun Dec 19, 2010 2:59 pm

qwert wrote:i must say,that i first time heard that high ranked players are in big disatvantage.

No it isn't. Have you seen page 1 of this thread?

Granted, Formula 4 is different from the regular scoreboard in that high ranking players do not gain fewer points for a win than low ranking players. In that way, it does make it a bit fairer for high ranks.

However, there is the other half of the equation - high ranks lose more points than low ranks, which still puts them at a disadvantage.

You were right in thinking that this disadvantage is smaller than it would be in Formula 1.


qwert wrote:These is suggestion,its not any kind of order to be implemented.
I realy want to eliminate point dumping,and also i want to prevent point farming, because if i put to all be equal,then high ranked player,will play as much he can with low ranked,because win its secured,and i want to prevent that low ranked players be pigeons in plate.

I'm just not sure you can have both.

As it stands, Formulas 1+4 result in point dumping (and high rank disadvantage), and Formulas 2+3 result in point farming.


qwert wrote:Also if you start like sergeant, these not meant that you will end month like sergeant, because in half month you can become colonel,and situation its change, then you will not lost 8,you will lost more points.

Right, that's exactly what will happen.

But the point is that going from Sergeant to Colonel, a gain of 1,200 points, is far, far easier than going from General to Field Marshal, a gain of 1,000 points.


qwert wrote:Now we can disscuse over and over again,but if you have some ideas,please present, so that we can explore more.

I don't have any ideas. As I've said before, I don't believe there is a way to make this work.

I'm sure someone else will come in and offer up a new idea.
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Re: (poll)SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(description page 1-med

Postby chipv on Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:08 pm

If there was a way to search games by date I would do this in a script.
Otherwise site has to do it, it is a great idea.

For clarification there is no issue about high ranks being at a disadvantage because everybody has a separate monthly
score starting at zero and points gained/loss are calculated using the monthly rank only.
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