I had a dream.... about beta (MapMaker Killer series: MMK)

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Is that a good idea?

YES
14
64%
YES but not in beta
2
9%
YES but only for beta
4
18%
NO
2
9%
 
Total votes : 22

I had a dream.... about beta (MapMaker Killer series: MMK)

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:36 am

LIST OF BETA MAPS UPDATED

Hi all,

I played beta Middle age and an idea came through. Could we organize a tourney directly when a beta map shows up.


Players will fight in a tourney and for those who reach the finale, they can play directly VS the creator of the map.


If the map creator is ok, he tells me how he wants the finale :
    Number of players in finale
    Format of the finale : 1vs1, 4 players, 6players...
    Settings of the finale : standard, assassin, spoils, reinforcment, fog...
    How the final will work : best of three games, round robin...

He can also give preferences for the whole tournament. If not, I take care to do a tourney wich will match the finale. ;)

Once it's done, I take care of organizing everything :
    Create the tournament
    Found players
    Send games....
Until the finale where the creator will show up to fight other players on his own map. Should be a minimum of three games in finale (maybe 5). Depending the format of the finale.

Play those tournaments on beta maps give the opportunity to players to test it quicker and give a feedback on map foudry forum. We could also add a link to the thread while creating the tourney.
I think Map foundry is too often read only by cartographers...;)


Maps in final forge are for now :
show


So I would like to know if :
    You agree with that
    You have any other ideal about it

Could be a nice idea, let me know.

Sincerely
DJENRE

UPDATE about what have been discussed on thread : KIND OF RESUME
show: MapMaker Killer series main rules


[OFFICIAL] : refused
NEW MEDAL : refused
Special sig for winners : to be confirmed

coul be something like this one :
Click image to enlarge.
image
but I'm sure cartographer can do much better. ;)

this one is much better I think :
Click image to enlarge.
image


ONLY FOR MAPMAKERS

If you want to be included in the MMK with your map, fill the form below and sent it to me by pm or post it on the thread HERE
Please read MMK main rules before you start filling that form.


show
Last edited by DJENRE on Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:30 pm, edited 28 times in total.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:48 am

MESSAGE TO SEND FOR MAPS BECOMING BETA
Click image to enlarge.
image


Hi xxxxxx,

You should know that MMK are tournaments set to help cartographer to have better feedbacks about their maps.
Maybe you'd like MMK IV to be set on your map: xxxxxxx
Many cartographers are already in MMK series. (some are already playing, some are waiting for the Beta test) SEE HERE!
You can read the main rules if you have time. I put a format in the spoiler to fill if you want.
Don't worry if you don't have a lot of time for this, I can take care of everything and you just show in the finale. ;)

Sincerely
DJENRE


MMK : Be a MapMaker Killer
Click image to enlarge.
image

Qualify for the finale on beta maps and fight the cartographer on his own map. This tournament has been done to give players the opportunity to fight MapMakers and cartographer the possibility to get more feedback about their beta maps.
MMK I: Middle Ages
MMK II: Thaïland
MMK III: Antartica

ONLY FOR MAPMAKERS

If you want to be included in the MMK with your map, fill the form below and sent it to me by pm or post it on the thread HERE
Please read MMK main rules before you start filling that form.


show

:arrow:
Last edited by DJENRE on Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby perchorin on Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:01 am

The problem here is, most people play in tournaments for the winner's medal. What happens if the mapmaker wins, he/she gets a medal for winning one game? The other person in the finals comes away with nothing after all their hard work getting there? I think the only way you could do this is if the mapmaker was in the tourney from the very beginning and had to play/win just as many games as anyone else to win it. That's possible now, if said mapmaker is interested.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:08 am

perchorin wrote:The problem here is, most people play in tournaments for the winner's medal. What happens if the mapmaker wins, he/she gets a medal for winning one game? The other person in the finals comes away with nothing after all their hard work getting there? I think the only way you could do this is if the mapmaker was in the tourney from the very beginning and had to play/win just as many games as anyone else to win it. That's possible now, if said mapmaker is interested.


Yes, you're right about the medal and the final. Except if we tell the players that is a special "beta" tournament and that the mapmaker reach the finale directly. But I don't know if it's against cc rules. If it's not, we could do that.
ANd mapmker is not getting a medal after winning 1 game if it's best of 5 in finale for exemple, he will need 3 victories. But problem remain the same for a finale 4 players round robin for exemple.
CC rule tell that nobody can win a tournament without three games
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby mcshanester29 on Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:30 am

I think that it would be a good idea as far as I could see as long as the finale is best of 5 it should be okay according to tourney rules. I do agree about the final but as long as it is stated in the tourney info I see no problem with it.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby natty dread on Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:26 am

Meh. Mapmakers aren't usually that good on their own maps... ;)
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 4:50 am

natty_dread wrote:Meh. Mapmakers aren't usually that good on their own maps... ;)


You're maybe right but it's fun to fight mapmaker on his own map...
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby Blitzaholic on Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:22 am

It is not a bad idea, but, I would not make it mandatory, but, optional.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby Industrial Helix on Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:53 am

natty_dread wrote:Meh. Mapmakers aren't usually that good on their own maps... ;)


That's what I was thinking, so it might not be a grand finale for the tournament... but it would be fun. I'll do it.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby FarangDemon on Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:39 am

Great idea. When Thailand goes Beta, I will participate. If grifftron has enough slots, I'm sure he'd join my team.

I recommend the following settings for Thailand:

Settings

Triples, automatic, sequential, no spoils, chained, sunny

Roster

8, 16 or 32 teams, depending on interest

Format

Make it single elimination format, winner of single game advances until there are 4 teams left.

Finale

These four teams plus the mapmaker team play in a round robin, one game against each team. Team with best record from round robin wins, in case of a tie, the winner is the team that won head-to-head. If multiple teams tie, another round robin commences minus the team that clearly lost until there is just one winner.

Satisfies 3-Win Requirement

This 5-team round robin format ensures that the winner has won at least 3 games. To win the round robin, a team would need record of 4-0 or 3-1. Only way 2-2 can be best record of round robin is if all 5 teams are 2-2, necessitating a redo of the round. Any subsequent winner would then have to have won at least 3 more games from the redo round.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:50 am

Blitzaholic wrote:It is not a bad idea, but, I would not make it mandatory, but, optional.


Of course, of course.

Any player, including mapmakers, can say he doesn't want to join...

This thread is just to see the main feeling about this idea.

Every beta tourney will be checked with mapmaker and only those (mapmakers) who want to participate will do. ;)
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:52 am

Industrial Helix wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Meh. Mapmakers aren't usually that good on their own maps... ;)


That's what I was thinking, so it might not be a grand finale for the tournament... but it would be fun. I'll do it.


Yes but we don't care.
Somebody else told me about medals.
In those tourney, I think the winner will prefer to say "I won a mapmaker on his own map on tourney" than "I won a tourney medal".
That's just to make it funnier.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:03 am

FarangDemon wrote:Great idea. When Thailand goes Beta, I will participate. If griffton has enough slots, I'm sure he'd join my team.
I recommend the following settings for Thailand:
Format
Make it single elimination format, winner of single game advances until there are 4 teams left.
Finale
These four teams plus the mapmaker team play in a round robin, one game against each team. Team with best record from round robin wins, in case of a tie, the winner is the team that won head-to-head. If multiple teams tie, another round robin commences minus the team that clearly lost until there is just one winner.
Satisfies 3-Win Requirement
This 5-team round robin format ensures that the winner has won at least 3 games. To win the round robin, a team would need record of 4-0 or 3-1. Only way 2-2 can be best record of round robin is if all 5 teams are 2-2, necessitating a redo of the round. Any subsequent winner would then have to have won at least 3 more games from the redo round.


Ok, that's cool, we'll determinate details later but that's nice you already want to participate and filled the form entirely.

The only thing is that each team play only one game VS the mapmakerteam in finale.
I can make a format until there are 3 teams left + you = 4 teams in finale. Then :
    a) If u agree a 8 players in double. we could play 5 games in total (with points). Each finalist team will play then 5 games VS MM (Map makers)
    b) If u prefer 4 players in double. we could play twice each other team = 6 team match in total for each team in finale including 2 VS MM.
What do you think about it?

The main thing is : if a player or a team reach finale to play MM, he(it) want(s) to play at least 2 or 3 games...
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby MarshalNey on Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:32 pm

Industrial Helix wrote:
natty_dread wrote:Meh. Mapmakers aren't usually that good on their own maps... ;)


That's what I was thinking, so it might not be a grand finale for the tournament... but it would be fun. I'll do it.


Ahhh natty, you're too humble. Don't you see it isn't the challenge factor that makes it a grand finale, but the celebrity factor? Especially if the mapmaker's name is included on the tourney name, or prominent in the rules, you know, played-up theatrically. I remember the very first time I played a mapmaker on his own map, I was tickled, but I was the only one who knew I think... because not many people read the signatures, much less the map threads.

So, I do think you should publicize the mapmaker's name somewhere in the tourney thread, so players know who the mapmaker is when they reach the final.

Otherwise, I think this is a wonderful idea, and a better integration of the different areas of CC. The Foundry could make some good use of Tourneys as Beta testing grounds, using custom settings and high-quality players. Also, it would be good to know if a map makes a 'good' Tourney map; after all that's the main area of map usage besides Clan challenges.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:48 pm

MarshalNey wrote: Ahhh natty, you're too humble. Don't you see it isn't the challenge factor that makes it a grand finale, but the celebrity factor? Especially if the mapmaker's name is included on the tourney name, or prominent in the rules, you know, played-up theatrically. I remember the very first time I played a mapmaker on his own map, I was tickled, but I was the only one who knew I think... because not many people read the signatures, much less the map threads.

So, I do think you should publicize the mapmaker's name somewhere in the tourney thread, so players know who the mapmaker is when they reach the final.

Otherwise, I think this is a wonderful idea, and a better integration of the different areas of CC. The Foundry could make some good use of Tourneys as Beta testing grounds, using custom settings and high-quality players. Also, it would be good to know if a map makes a 'good' Tourney map; after all that's the main area of map usage besides Clan challenges.



First of all, thank you so much, u exactly understand what Im trying to do.
    1) I want the people entering the tourney know why they're playing, and who will be the mapmaker they'll found in finale.
    2) so name of the mapmaker will be in the first lines of the thread in large letters.
    3) and also a biggest feedback from players while games are still beta
    4) When I did that post, I hoped nobody move it into tournament folder. I wanted that idea confirmed by cartographer first.

As many people feel ok about it, I'm going to create a quick example of what could be the thread for those tournament. I'll make it with vietnam cause I already have settings from mapmakers. See ya!
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:17 pm

This is just a quick example
I'll also tell nightstrike to have a look on that thread first to see if everything is correct.

show: example


I'll also add colors and everything needed to make it nicer and also more rules about the tourney.

What could be beautiful is to have a special medal like a MMK medal only available on those tournaments. But if they do, it will be more rules like minimum number of players to obtain medals, and many more...
But I can't do nothing about that, so if the idea come true about those tournaments, maybe one of you (coloured names) could ask for a special medal. ;)
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby MrBenn on Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:43 pm

I know from experience that some tournament organisers do run tournaments on beta maps - to my surprise I actually won one on my England map when it was first launched!

I'm thinking that this conversation might be more appropriate within the tournaments forum... [moved]
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:56 pm

Nooooooooooooooo

DJENRE wrote:First of all, thank you so much, u exactly understand what Im trying to do.
    1) I want the people entering the tourney know why they're playing, and who will be the mapmaker they'll found in finale.
    2) so name of the mapmaker will be in the first lines of the thread in large letters.
    3) and also a biggest feedback from players while games are still beta
    4) When I did that post, I hoped nobody move it into tournament folder. I wanted that idea confirmed by cartographer first.

As many people feel ok about it, I'm going to create a quick example of what could be the thread for those tournament. I'll make it with vietnam cause I already have settings from mapmakers. See ya!


Please mr benn, I want to confirm many things with cartographers and have a feedback from nightstrike before we show anything in tournament forum.

Could you replace it in Map foudry please?

MarshalNey wrote: Otherwise, I think this is a wonderful idea, and a better integration of the different areas of CC. The Foundry could make some good use of Tourneys as Beta testing grounds, using custom settings and high-quality players. Also, it would be good to know if a map makes a 'good' Tourney map; after all that's the main area of map usage besides Clan challenges.


Please Please Please ;)
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby Night Strike on Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:48 pm

DJENRE wrote:
perchorin wrote:The problem here is, most people play in tournaments for the winner's medal. What happens if the mapmaker wins, he/she gets a medal for winning one game? The other person in the finals comes away with nothing after all their hard work getting there? I think the only way you could do this is if the mapmaker was in the tourney from the very beginning and had to play/win just as many games as anyone else to win it. That's possible now, if said mapmaker is interested.


Yes, you're right about the medal and the final. Except if we tell the players that is a special "beta" tournament and that the mapmaker reach the finale directly. But I don't know if it's against cc rules. If it's not, we could do that.
ANd mapmker is not getting a medal after winning 1 game if it's best of 5 in finale for exemple, he will need 3 victories. But problem remain the same for a finale 4 players round robin for exemple.
CC rule tell that nobody can win a tournament without three games


The mapmakers can play the tournament winners in a separate series of games, but the mapmakers could not win the medal without playing the entire tournament as all players must have an equal (or nearly equal) chance to win the tournament based on the number of games/rounds played.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 2:52 pm

Night Strike wrote:The mapmakers can play the tournament winners in a separate series of games, but the mapmakers could not win the medal without playing the entire tournament as all players must have an equal (or nearly equal) chance to win the tournament based on the number of games/rounds played.


Night Strike,
Thank you for those indications.

While you're here, can u read last two posts (before yours) if you can do something and if you agree. (moved)
I would really like that cartographer can follow that post few more days. And I'm sure they will not if this thread in is the tournament forum.

Thank you

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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby MarshalNey on Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:07 pm

Night Strike wrote:
DJENRE wrote:
perchorin wrote:The problem here is, most people play in tournaments for the winner's medal. What happens if the mapmaker wins, he/she gets a medal for winning one game? The other person in the finals comes away with nothing after all their hard work getting there? I think the only way you could do this is if the mapmaker was in the tourney from the very beginning and had to play/win just as many games as anyone else to win it. That's possible now, if said mapmaker is interested.


Yes, you're right about the medal and the final. Except if we tell the players that is a special "beta" tournament and that the mapmaker reach the finale directly. But I don't know if it's against cc rules. If it's not, we could do that.
ANd mapmker is not getting a medal after winning 1 game if it's best of 5 in finale for exemple, he will need 3 victories. But problem remain the same for a finale 4 players round robin for exemple.
CC rule tell that nobody can win a tournament without three games


The mapmakers can play the tournament winners in a separate series of games, but the mapmakers could not win the medal without playing the entire tournament as all players must have an equal (or nearly equal) chance to win the tournament based on the number of games/rounds played.


I agree that the mapmakers shouldn't have a chance to win a medal, but I think with some creativity this tournament could still feature them.

For instance, what about a Whac-a-Mod type of scorekeeping, where the winner of the tournament is the player/team that eliminated the mapmaker(s) the most times in the finale? Or won the most games in the finale (not counting the mapmaker wins)?

That way, the mapmaker makes a 'guest' appearance as an obstacle/target, but doesn't have a stake in winning the tourney-- just winning the games and not losing points ;) There might be many mapmakers that would be flattered to take part and wouldn't need the enticement of a Tournament Medal to participate.

I've never made a Tourney, but would this idea fit within the guidelines?
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:20 pm

MarshalNey wrote: I agree that the mapmakers shouldn't have a chance to win a medal, but I think with some creativity this tournament could still feature them.

For instance, what about a Whac-a-Mod type of scorekeeping, where the winner of the tournament is the player/team that eliminated the mapmaker(s) the most times in the finale? Or won the most games in the finale (not counting the mapmaker wins)?

That way, the mapmaker makes a 'guest' appearance as an obstacle/target, but doesn't have a stake in winning the tourney-- just winning the games and not losing points ;) There might be many mapmakers that would be flattered to take part and wouldn't need the enticement of a Tournament Medal to participate.

I've never made a Tourney, but would this idea fit within the guidelines?


I agree, the mapmakers, even if they don't get a medal, should be proud to defend their own map in finale. They could be under the spotlights in the thread and during the tourney. Most of the cartographers are unknown by players even if they do a great job.

About the finale, I think we have quiet the same idea but what is a Whac-a-Mod?

For the finale, if any player (/ team) can reach conditions to win the tourney, he becomes a mapmaker killer and get a tourney medal. If nobody can reach the number of victories needed or conditions needed, the Mapmaker stay as the master of his own map. And we could play another tournament in this case.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby FarangDemon on Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:01 pm

DJENRE wrote:
MarshalNey wrote: I agree that the mapmakers shouldn't have a chance to win a medal, but I think with some creativity this tournament could still feature them.


Yes, for the record I agree as well. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.

DJENRE, I like your Whac-a-Mod idea in theory. I would be proud to defend the Thailand map. But it would be too many games for my liking, and I have clan obligations. So I'd prefer to just enter tourney as a regular combatant. Anyway, we can finalize details when the map actually becomes beta....
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby DJENRE on Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:30 pm

FarangDemon wrote: Yes, for the record I agree as well. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.
DJENRE, I like your Whac-a-Mod idea in theory. I would be proud to defend the Thailand map. But it would be too many games for my liking, and I have clan obligations. So I'd prefer to just enter tourney as a regular combatant. Anyway, we can finalize details when the map actually becomes beta....


Yes I understand the problem. We have to check that before running any tourney.
I have to think about 2 things :
1) You (the MM) who have few time or other obligations
2] Players who has went through many games to see you in finale so we need a minimum of game.
I will set finale to fit with everybody's needs. I promess.
But as the mapmaker is the key of the tourney, we will match with him. If MM has only few time available I will send map for the finale one after another.

I think it's a better idea to see the MM only during the finale (if MM doesn't care about the medal of course).

But if many MM want to be in the first round, I could change my mind.
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Re: I had a dream.... about beta

Postby Night Strike on Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:18 pm

There are other options available to include the mapmakers in the tournament, I was just specifically addressing the situation as originally presented.


I can't move the thread back without you getting a Cartographer to say it's fine (and to tell me which forum to put it in).
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