Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 ::REVAMP::

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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:35 pm

The Bison King wrote:
The Bison King wrote:Here's my solution (a variation on Benn's)

Group #1) Arleus; Caspiar; Illania; Dunmar; Narula; Dalmu; Cryagnotica
Group #2 Chancella; Jenua; Garrea; Tyross; Sarabell; Theraland; Cancallus Desert
Group #3) Solaria; Azuran; Rowamar; Cratica; Talus; Northern Frontier; Sarle

I'm pretty sure that will prevent any of the small bonuses from being dropped. I'd like it if someone could check it though, since I'm not an expert and I didn't use a probability calculator.

MrBenn wrote:Can we get an update, or a firm decision please. This has been sitting around for too long without any progress now...


I was hoping to get some feedback on this. If this works then make then Ender can make the changes and we can update.

Why is Cryagnotica part of Group #1 and not Itheria? If you swapped these two, then Itherania would be evenly split in 3 player games, and you don't give the recipient of group #1 a leg up in Solonabirsk.

Also, perhaps more importantly, I am still concerned that using only 3 starting position groups is not sufficient. You still have a 25.45% chance of someone dropping a 3-region zone, and a 9.09% chance of someone dropping a 4-region zone. With my 5-group scheme, we greatly reduce those percentages to 6.77% and 1.17% respectively.
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby The Bison King on Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:44 pm

Why is Cryagnotica part of Group #1 and not Itheria? If you swapped these two, then Itherania would be evenly split in 3 player games, and you don't give the recipient of group #1 a leg up in Solonabirsk.

My thinking is that by already having 2 groups start on the Itherania bonus it was already blocked. Putting dudes on Cryagnotica blocks the Denmarn-Norhern Frontier bonus.

Also, perhaps more importantly, I am still concerned that using only 3 starting position groups is not sufficient. You still have a 25.45% chance of someone dropping a 3-region zone, and a 9.09% chance of someone dropping a 4-region zone. With my 5-group scheme, we greatly reduce those percentages to 6.77% and 1.17% respectively.

If you truly believe that the 5 group scheme is the best then create it and implement it. Or (just throwing it out there) we could just quench as is. There was a small wave of people with faulty starts but I haven't heard anything since then. To me this suggests that I was right with my first diagnosis of those merely being flukes. Either way I agree with Benn, It's time to move on.
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:17 am

The Bison King wrote:
Why is Cryagnotica part of Group #1 and not Itheria? If you swapped these two, then Itherania would be evenly split in 3 player games, and you don't give the recipient of group #1 a leg up in Solonabirsk.

My thinking is that by already having 2 groups start on the Itherania bonus it was already blocked. Putting dudes on Cryagnotica blocks the Denmarn-Norhern Frontier bonus.
Yes, but with Itheria freely distributed, two times out of three, someone will have two of the three regions in Itherania.
The Bison King wrote:
Also, perhaps more importantly, I am still concerned that using only 3 starting position groups is not sufficient. You still have a 25.45% chance of someone dropping a 3-region zone, and a 9.09% chance of someone dropping a 4-region zone. With my 5-group scheme, we greatly reduce those percentages to 6.77% and 1.17% respectively.

If you truly believe that the 5 group scheme is the best then create it and implement it. Or (just throwing it out there) we could just quench as is. There was a small wave of people with faulty starts but I haven't heard anything since then. To me this suggests that I was right with my first diagnosis of those merely being flukes. Either way I agree with Benn, It's time to move on.

The spreadsheets (once they were updated) support the frequency of drops that were complained about, and the number of complaints is bound to drop off, as those who complained (and others) may avoid the map until it is fixed, and others may note that the problem has been reported here and not bother reporting the problem again.

If you want to try my 5-group starting position scheme, here is the XML:
Thyseneal.1.6.xml
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby The Bison King on Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:04 pm

Great!

I say lets load this up:

Thyseneal.1.6.xml
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:14 pm

The Bison King wrote:Great!

I say lets load this up:

Thyseneal.1.6.xml

It passes the validation check, and I've forwarded it to lackattack for upload.

--MrBenn
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:15 pm

MrBenn wrote:
The Bison King wrote:Great!

I say lets load this up:

Thyseneal.1.6.xml

It passes the validation check, and I've forwarded it to lackattack for upload.

--MrBenn

And it's gone live ;-)
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby The Bison King on Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:46 pm

MrBenn wrote:
MrBenn wrote:
The Bison King wrote:Great!

I say lets load this up:

Thyseneal.1.6.xml

It passes the validation check, and I've forwarded it to lackattack for upload.

--MrBenn

And it's gone live ;-)

Word! I'll be starting up a few new games then, let me know if anyone wants an invite.
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby The Bison King on Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:28 am

So do you think this is ready for quench?
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby Victor Sullivan on Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:48 pm

I do.
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Mon Dec 27, 2010 5:59 pm

Yep - we're good to go...
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby MrBenn on Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:04 pm

              Quenching

---The Beta period has concluded for the Thyseneal Map. All objections have had their time. The Foundry and I hereby brand this map with the Foundry Brand. Let it be known that this map is now ready to be released into live play.

Congratulations The Bison King and ender516, your shiny new medals are well-earned =D>


Conquer Club, enjoy!
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby The Bison King on Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:50 pm

Thank you I am honored again.

It really feels good to contribute.
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:36 am

There is some satisfaction in reaching this point. I hope everyone who plays this map, enjoys it.
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby Rodion on Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:35 pm

The Bison King wrote:Here's my solution (a variation on Benn's)

Group #1) Arleus; Caspiar; Illania; Dunmar; Narula; Dalmu; Cryagnotica
Group #2 Chancella; Jenua; Garrea; Tyross; Sarabell; Theraland; Cancallus Desert
Group #3) Solaria; Azuran; Rowamar; Cratica; Talus; Northern Frontier; Sarle

I'm pretty sure that will prevent any of the small bonuses from being dropped. I'd like it if someone could check it though, since I'm not an expert and I didn't use a probability calculator.


Did this (or anything similar) pass or not? How is it coded?

The OP does not give information as to how drops are conditioned.
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby natty dread on Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:21 pm

You can always take a look at the xml file.

http://www.conquerclub.com/maps/Thyseneal.xml

Code: Select all
<positions>

<position>
<territory>Dalmus</territory>
<!-- position A-1 -->
<territory>Arleus</territory>
<!-- position A-2 -->
<territory>Illania</territory>
<!-- position A-3 -->
<territory>Tuskaroja</territory>
<!-- position A-4 -->
</position>

<position>
<territory>Caspiar</territory>
<!-- position B-1 -->
<territory>Chunjaris</territory>
<!-- position B-2 -->
<territory>Azuran</territory>
<!-- position B-3 -->
<territory>Alus</territory>
<!-- position B-4 -->
</position>

<position>
<territory>Tyross</territory>
<!-- position C-1 -->
<territory>Theraland</territory>
<!-- position C-2 -->
<territory>Chancella</territory>
<!-- position C-3 -->
<territory>Cancallus Desert</territory>
<!-- position C-4 -->
</position>

<position>
<territory>Cratica</territory>
<!-- position D-1 -->
<territory>Sarle</territory>
<!-- position D-2 -->
<territory>Jenua</territory>
<!-- position D-3 -->
<territory>Iskul</territory>
<!-- position D-4 -->
</position>

<position>
<territory>Solaria</territory>
<!-- position E-1 -->
<territory>Itheria</territory>
<!-- position E-2 -->
<territory>Morovia</territory>
<!-- position E-3 -->
<territory>Narula</territory>
<!-- position E-4 -->
</position>
</positions>


seems to be 5 starting positions with 4 territories each.
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby Rodion on Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:18 am

How would that apply in a 6-player game?

I don't know how to read XML.
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:21 am

It doesn't. There's only 5 starting positions so they are ignored in 6-8 player games.
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby Rodion on Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:24 am

So, that's why I see people being dropped bonuses all the time when I play Thyseneal triples?
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby natty dread on Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:30 pm

I don't know. Maybe?
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby Rodion on Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:32 pm

I guess.

Well, thanks for the answer!
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Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby GeneralAnestetic on Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:04 am

this map is terrible for duels because someone always starts with a 3 point 3 island bonus, because there are 5 & one player is dropped in either 3, 4, or 5, by necessity. and half the time the player with that 3 bonus is going first. you need to fix it so that two or more of the islands start neutral or change the bonus.
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby ender516 on Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:31 pm

The starting positions ensure that in a 1v1 game, the islands are distributed 2 to one player and 2 to the other. Then the fifth island goes in the pot and one third of the time would be given to the "neutral player". So in two starts out of three, someone initially has the 3 point bonus, but that player would get first turn only half the time. When the bonus goes to the second player, the first player can break and take that bonus.
Setting all the islands as starting neutrals would ensure that the fifth island always went to the neutral player, and would ensure exactly one island each in 3-, 4-, and 5-player games. However, it would affect the starting distribution of territories in all sizes of games in other ways I can't check just now.
Does anyone else think this is a big problem, or is it just the sort of thing one expects in 1v1 games, which tend to favour the first player a bit regardless?
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby Leehar on Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:53 pm

nah I think this is a big enough effect to be worth changing. I've also played a recent game on this where it was finished by my first turn because I couldn't break that bonus.
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby Rodion on Wed Jun 01, 2011 12:58 pm

ender516 wrote:Does anyone else think this is a big problem, or is it just the sort of thing one expects in 1v1 games, which tend to favour the first player a bit regardless?


I enjoy this map a lot for triples, but I ocasionally get irritated with 3 islands bonuses being dropped (Arleus and Itherania also, albeit not as frequently).

I would LOVE if you designed starting points that would make 3v3s fairer.
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Re: Re: Thyseneal: V 3.6 with XML v1.3 [Gp][Gr][Xml] [Beta]

Postby Rodion on Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:00 pm

Let me just add that the quantity of territories already force unfair 1v1s and 2v2s (going first means you can force your opponent to get less armies than you did), so salvaging the 3v3s is the best thing you can do imho.
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Brigadier Rodion
 
Posts: 1338
Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
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Assassin Achievement (1) Manual Troops Achievement (1) Freestyle Achievement (2) Nuclear Spoils Achievement (1) Fog of War Achievement (3)
Speed Achievement (2) Teammate Achievement (1) Random Map Achievement (1) Cross-Map Achievement (3) Battle Royale Achievement (1)
Ratings Achievement (3) Tournament Achievement (27) General Achievement (9) Clan Achievement (14) Tournament Contribution (3)
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