Swastikas on CC maps?

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Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby natty dread on Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:46 am

I thought CC policy was that there should be no swastikas or nazi flags on CC maps, even in historical context. Cairns had to edit it out of his Stalingrad & Das Schloss maps...

So why is this on the Ardennes offensive map?

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If it's banned, it should be edited out of this map too. I don't think a "grandfather clause" is a valid argument in a case like this.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby Riskismy on Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:02 am

That's a moronic rule anyways. Can't hush evil to death.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby natty dread on Sun Apr 17, 2011 6:43 am

Way to miss the point completely.

Regardless of the merits of having such a rule, the rule is in place, so if some maps have to follow it, all maps should have to. When taking in account the reasoning for a rule like this, I don't think a "grandfather clause" can apply in this case.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby greenoaks on Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:00 am

if that was the flag of the time then it should stay
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby natty dread on Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:25 am

greenoaks wrote:if that was the flag of the time then it should stay


You're also missing the point.

For the record, I agree that the usage of the flag should be allowed in historical context, for historical maps. But since CC has made the ruling that a nazi flag is not allowed on maps, then it should be removed from all maps.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby MrBenn on Sun Apr 17, 2011 3:00 pm

The real reason is that it hadn't been raised a an issue until cairns was working on das schloss; I asked lack for his opinion at the time, and he asked for the alternative german eagle to be used in favour of the swastika, and we have enforced this policy since then. I would have to double check with lack whether he would like the policy enforced retrospectively - if so, then I believe there may be one or two others that would need amending as well...
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby natty dread on Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:56 pm

MrBenn wrote:The real reason is that it hadn't been raised a an issue until cairns was working on das schloss; I asked lack for his opinion at the time, and he asked for the alternative german eagle to be used in favour of the swastika, and we have enforced this policy since then. I would have to double check with lack whether he would like the policy enforced retrospectively - if so, then I believe there may be one or two others that would need amending as well...


Well, I just think it would be odd if it isn't enforced retrospectively. I mean, if the purpose of the policy is to be considerate/sensitive/politically correct, whatever, then why only ban showing the flag in new maps? Wouldn't the image of the flag be just as offensive in the old maps?

In fact I dare say that if it's not enforced retroactively, it sort of defeats the whole point of the policy...
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby grifftron on Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:08 pm

lol... gl having qwert edit that, remember pelo war?
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby natty dread on Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:14 pm

grifftron wrote:lol... gl having qwert edit that, remember pelo war?


Well, qwert didn't edit his pelo war map, but it got edited anyway... changing a flag is not a big retouch, it can be done pretty smoothly. I suppose the same will apply for other maps that have swastikas, if their makers are no longer active or otherwise unable to change them.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby grifftron on Sun Apr 17, 2011 5:41 pm

natty_dread wrote:
grifftron wrote:lol... gl having qwert edit that, remember pelo war?


Well, qwert didn't edit his pelo war map, but it got edited anyway... changing a flag is not a big retouch, it can be done pretty smoothly. I suppose the same will apply for other maps that have swastikas, if their makers are no longer active or otherwise unable to change them.


I know he didn't change it, MB changed it I thought, but either way, he wouldn't change it, mods would have too.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby greenoaks on Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:27 pm

natty_dread wrote:
greenoaks wrote:if that was the flag of the time then it should stay


You're also missing the point.

For the record, I agree that the usage of the flag should be allowed in historical context, for historical maps. But since CC has made the ruling that a nazi flag is not allowed on maps, then it should be removed from all maps.

i got the point

i was just making mine that historical context is important, artist fluff is not
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby squishyg on Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:37 pm

Exceptions are made to rules all the time. Are you complaining because you find it offensive or is this just sour grapes, or something of that nature?
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby Serbia on Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:41 pm

squishyg wrote:Exceptions are made to rules all the time. Are you complaining because you find it offensive or is this just sour grapes, or something of that nature?


The whole argument sounds like sour grapes to me.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby Lindax on Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:48 pm

Pardon me for butting in, but the Nazi flag is one thing, the swastika symbol is a totally different animal.

I assume you all know that the swastika symbol has been used for thousands of years? And usually not with a negative meaning?

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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby squishyg on Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:51 pm

Yes, we all know that. Everyone knows that. This is not what the argument is about.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby Lindax on Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:58 pm

squishyg wrote:Yes, we all know that. Everyone knows that. This is not what the argument is about.


Good to hear you can speak for everyone (even the 11 year old who doesn't have a clue what we're talking about). Makes things easier. :D

Anyway, I was merely reacting to the first post:

I thought CC policy was that there should be no swastikas or nazi flags on CC maps, even in historical context.


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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby greenoaks on Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:51 pm

Lindax wrote:Pardon me for butting in, but the Nazi flag is one thing, the swastika symbol is a totally different animal.

I assume you all know that the swastika symbol has been used for thousands of years? And usually not with a negative meaning?

Lx

was it a spanish religious group that had been using it ?

i think it is in the opening scene of that movie with Tom Hanks about christ and a catholic church coverup.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby natty dread on Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:33 am

Believe me Lindax, I know all there is to know about Manji, Tetragammata, Swastika, Sauvastika, whatever you wish to call it.

For example, the word "Swastika" itself comes from sanskrit words "su" = "welfare" + "asti" = "he is", translating roughly to "one who is well", and it has been used as a good luck symbol for thousands of years by the hindus and buddhists...

Which is why I'm saddened that such a symbol was corrupted and "dragged through the mud" by the nazis.

And no, this is not "sour grapes". Why would it be? I've never been asked to change any of my maps because of this rule. The real point is that the rule/policy of not allowing the nazi flag on maps makes no sense whatsoever if it's not applied on all maps.

Think about it for a while: the point of the rule is to be considerate, or politically correct, or respect the holocaust survivors, or something like that... either way, any of those points is moot if the rule is not applied to all maps! Why worry about offending people with the nazi flag on one map, if at the same time there's another map that can potentially offend people with that same flag?

Personally, I don't really agree with this rule/policy. I think it's more disrespectful to try to cover up history and pretend things didn't happen. But I do understand the reasons for it... doesn't Germany still have a law that bans the nazi flag altogether? Perhaps CC doesn't want to lose it's German customers? Idk.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby MrBenn on Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:00 am

The foundry way is to respond to comments and criticisms while a map is in development.... While there was some discussion about it with Das Schloss, the first real complaints about the use of the swastika on CC maps occured while sam was working on the Poland map. It was in repsonse to the comments raised at this time that the policy was introduced. We can argue the relative merits (or otherwise) of historical accuracy vs political sensitivity, although I don't beleive that this discussion will be of any benefit to mapmaking, and would be better-placed in one of the existing discussions elsewhere in the forums.

While I am happy to enforce the current policy, I am not going to insist on changing old maps at this time. If somebody wants to catalogue older maps that bear the swastika symbol (I expect they will be in a historical context), then I will gladly approach lack to see if he would like the map images to be amended retrospectively.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby greenoaks on Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:59 am

MrBenn wrote:While I am happy to enforce the current policy, I am not going to insist on changing old maps at this time. If somebody wants to catalogue older maps that bear the swastika symbol (I expect they will be in a historical context), then I will gladly approach lack to see if he would like the map images to be amended retrospectively.

i would be extremely disapponted if you were glad. in my country we have a saying 'lest we forget'.

each year aussies make pilgramages to stand beside our bitter enemies of the time (the turkish) to remember those who fought, and died. they greet us warmly.

the symbols of the past bind us together, long after the participants have passed.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby OliverFA on Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:50 am

I think we have more important things to do than chase all swastikas in done maps. Don't we?

And by the way, "German law forbids swastikas" reason is the only good reason I can think for removing them from CC maps. Paradox had to remove them from their games for this very reason.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby Riskismy on Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:00 pm

natty wrote:The real point is that the rule/policy of not allowing the nazi flag on maps makes no sense whatsoever if it's not applied on all maps.


I know this will be a shock to some, but I quite agree.

Since most seems to agree that the only reason this rule is in place, is to be 'PC' or to accommodate overly sensitive personas, here's a thought:

Swastica:
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/Nongolf/180px-Nazi_Swastika-1.jpg
hm. That's very odd. Perhaps photobucket have fallen to the idiocy of 'PC' as well. 'least I can't get that img link to work. I apologize on behalf of photobucket, they don't know any better.

Not a swastica:
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby natty dread on Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:55 pm

Actually, both versions are commonly known as "swastika" - it's not incorrect to call either version a "swastika", although the proper name for the left-facing (counter-clockwise) symbol is "sauvastika" or "sauwastika".

The nazi insignia used both versions, but only the right-facing (clockwise) swastika was used on flags.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby theBastard on Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:43 pm

why could not be used swastika on any historic map? look at motion pictures about WW II or about neonazist or documental. the all used swastika, so why not on CC maps? if swastika will not be used on any map as propaganda...

... and by the way, the cross as christian symbol is fine? under cross were made much more misdoings as under whatever symbol. (I know, I know swastika is outlawed...)
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby Riskismy on Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:11 pm

Agreed. The easiest and certainly the most sensible solution is to repeal the rule.

As a denizen of Denmark, home of the 'Mohammed Cartoons', I've heard every angle to this debate presented in every which way possible for years now. It's a timid approach to an important issue and plain evidence that neither CC nor the German government has the issue at heart, but would rather take the easy way out. Scared little rabbits hiding in their holes, that's all.
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