Swastikas on CC maps?

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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby Lindax on Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:58 pm

squishyg wrote:Yes, we all know that. Everyone knows that. This is not what the argument is about.


Good to hear you can speak for everyone (even the 11 year old who doesn't have a clue what we're talking about). Makes things easier. :D

Anyway, I was merely reacting to the first post:

I thought CC policy was that there should be no swastikas or nazi flags on CC maps, even in historical context.


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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby greenoaks on Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:51 pm

Lindax wrote:Pardon me for butting in, but the Nazi flag is one thing, the swastika symbol is a totally different animal.

I assume you all know that the swastika symbol has been used for thousands of years? And usually not with a negative meaning?

Lx

was it a spanish religious group that had been using it ?

i think it is in the opening scene of that movie with Tom Hanks about christ and a catholic church coverup.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby natty dread on Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:33 am

Believe me Lindax, I know all there is to know about Manji, Tetragammata, Swastika, Sauvastika, whatever you wish to call it.

For example, the word "Swastika" itself comes from sanskrit words "su" = "welfare" + "asti" = "he is", translating roughly to "one who is well", and it has been used as a good luck symbol for thousands of years by the hindus and buddhists...

Which is why I'm saddened that such a symbol was corrupted and "dragged through the mud" by the nazis.

And no, this is not "sour grapes". Why would it be? I've never been asked to change any of my maps because of this rule. The real point is that the rule/policy of not allowing the nazi flag on maps makes no sense whatsoever if it's not applied on all maps.

Think about it for a while: the point of the rule is to be considerate, or politically correct, or respect the holocaust survivors, or something like that... either way, any of those points is moot if the rule is not applied to all maps! Why worry about offending people with the nazi flag on one map, if at the same time there's another map that can potentially offend people with that same flag?

Personally, I don't really agree with this rule/policy. I think it's more disrespectful to try to cover up history and pretend things didn't happen. But I do understand the reasons for it... doesn't Germany still have a law that bans the nazi flag altogether? Perhaps CC doesn't want to lose it's German customers? Idk.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby MrBenn on Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:00 am

The foundry way is to respond to comments and criticisms while a map is in development.... While there was some discussion about it with Das Schloss, the first real complaints about the use of the swastika on CC maps occured while sam was working on the Poland map. It was in repsonse to the comments raised at this time that the policy was introduced. We can argue the relative merits (or otherwise) of historical accuracy vs political sensitivity, although I don't beleive that this discussion will be of any benefit to mapmaking, and would be better-placed in one of the existing discussions elsewhere in the forums.

While I am happy to enforce the current policy, I am not going to insist on changing old maps at this time. If somebody wants to catalogue older maps that bear the swastika symbol (I expect they will be in a historical context), then I will gladly approach lack to see if he would like the map images to be amended retrospectively.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby greenoaks on Mon Apr 18, 2011 8:59 am

MrBenn wrote:While I am happy to enforce the current policy, I am not going to insist on changing old maps at this time. If somebody wants to catalogue older maps that bear the swastika symbol (I expect they will be in a historical context), then I will gladly approach lack to see if he would like the map images to be amended retrospectively.

i would be extremely disapponted if you were glad. in my country we have a saying 'lest we forget'.

each year aussies make pilgramages to stand beside our bitter enemies of the time (the turkish) to remember those who fought, and died. they greet us warmly.

the symbols of the past bind us together, long after the participants have passed.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby OliverFA on Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:50 am

I think we have more important things to do than chase all swastikas in done maps. Don't we?

And by the way, "German law forbids swastikas" reason is the only good reason I can think for removing them from CC maps. Paradox had to remove them from their games for this very reason.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby Riskismy on Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:00 pm

natty wrote:The real point is that the rule/policy of not allowing the nazi flag on maps makes no sense whatsoever if it's not applied on all maps.


I know this will be a shock to some, but I quite agree.

Since most seems to agree that the only reason this rule is in place, is to be 'PC' or to accommodate overly sensitive personas, here's a thought:

Swastica:
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/Nongolf/180px-Nazi_Swastika-1.jpg
hm. That's very odd. Perhaps photobucket have fallen to the idiocy of 'PC' as well. 'least I can't get that img link to work. I apologize on behalf of photobucket, they don't know any better.

Not a swastica:
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby natty dread on Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:55 pm

Actually, both versions are commonly known as "swastika" - it's not incorrect to call either version a "swastika", although the proper name for the left-facing (counter-clockwise) symbol is "sauvastika" or "sauwastika".

The nazi insignia used both versions, but only the right-facing (clockwise) swastika was used on flags.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby theBastard on Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:43 pm

why could not be used swastika on any historic map? look at motion pictures about WW II or about neonazist or documental. the all used swastika, so why not on CC maps? if swastika will not be used on any map as propaganda...

... and by the way, the cross as christian symbol is fine? under cross were made much more misdoings as under whatever symbol. (I know, I know swastika is outlawed...)
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby Riskismy on Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:11 pm

Agreed. The easiest and certainly the most sensible solution is to repeal the rule.

As a denizen of Denmark, home of the 'Mohammed Cartoons', I've heard every angle to this debate presented in every which way possible for years now. It's a timid approach to an important issue and plain evidence that neither CC nor the German government has the issue at heart, but would rather take the easy way out. Scared little rabbits hiding in their holes, that's all.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby squishyg on Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:31 pm

Getting to the heart of the matter, it's one thing to agree that going forward we're not going to use the swastika in maps; it's quite another to say that we have to go back and re-do maps that already have them.

CC is an ever-evolving place. It's counter-productive to think that every time a decision is made we should go back and re-do things that were done under old rules. I hear this same argument come up over and over again whenever CC has a new policy. Just move on.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby natty dread on Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:21 pm

squishyg wrote:CC is an ever-evolving place. It's counter-productive to think that every time a decision is made we should go back and re-do things that were done under old rules. I hear this same argument come up over and over again whenever CC has a new policy. Just move on.


Usually that would be the case. But in a case like this, where the very reason for the policy is to avoid offending either individuals or laws of other countries... doesn't it sort of negate the whole point of the policy if it's not applied universally?
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby greenoaks on Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:48 pm

natty_dread wrote:
squishyg wrote:CC is an ever-evolving place. It's counter-productive to think that every time a decision is made we should go back and re-do things that were done under old rules. I hear this same argument come up over and over again whenever CC has a new policy. Just move on.


Usually that would be the case. But in a case like this, where the very reason for the policy is to avoid offending either individuals or laws of other countries... doesn't it sort of negate the whole point of the policy if it's not applied universally?

if you are not offended by it why are you pushing for its removal ?
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby natty dread on Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:50 pm

greenoaks wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
squishyg wrote:CC is an ever-evolving place. It's counter-productive to think that every time a decision is made we should go back and re-do things that were done under old rules. I hear this same argument come up over and over again whenever CC has a new policy. Just move on.


Usually that would be the case. But in a case like this, where the very reason for the policy is to avoid offending either individuals or laws of other countries... doesn't it sort of negate the whole point of the policy if it's not applied universally?

if you are not offended by it why are you pushing for its removal ?


I'm not, per se.
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Re: Swastikas on CC maps?

Postby The Bison King on Mon May 02, 2011 10:32 am

natty_dread wrote:
greenoaks wrote:
natty_dread wrote:
squishyg wrote:CC is an ever-evolving place. It's counter-productive to think that every time a decision is made we should go back and re-do things that were done under old rules. I hear this same argument come up over and over again whenever CC has a new policy. Just move on.


Usually that would be the case. But in a case like this, where the very reason for the policy is to avoid offending either individuals or laws of other countries... doesn't it sort of negate the whole point of the policy if it's not applied universally?

if you are not offended by it why are you pushing for its removal ?


I'm not, per se.

Are you not "not offended"? or not pushing for it's removal?
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