Tournament recruitment etiquette

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Tournament recruitment etiquette

Postby Kiko13 on Tue Apr 19, 2011 1:38 pm

I am currently accepting players for playing in my first tournament which quickly made it to 13/16 players, but then has been stuck at 13 players for the last 4-5 days. I'm sure this will eventually fill, but am also asking the following for future reference assuming I run more tournaments.

I am wondering what the proper ways of recruiting on the site are. For example, I'm assuming it's a no-no to "advertise" in other tournament threads (I would think that would be annoying and disrespectful to the organizer of those tournaments). What about in game chat? For me, I don't know that I want to constantly see posts in the chat about this tournament or that tournament so I could see that as being annoying or not allowed. I've seen others suggest PM'ing players, but I haven't really built any online "relationships" with other players yet. So who do I target?

I really don't want to annoy people with trying to be overly pro-active in recruiting and don't want to step on any toes, so I'm curious what the best ways are to recruit in a proper manner.

Thanks.
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Re: Tournament recruitment etiquette

Postby Lindax on Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:45 pm

Kiko13 wrote:I am currently accepting players for playing in my first tournament which quickly made it to 13/16 players, but then has been stuck at 13 players for the last 4-5 days. I'm sure this will eventually fill, but am also asking the following for future reference assuming I run more tournaments.

I am wondering what the proper ways of recruiting on the site are. For example, I'm assuming it's a no-no to "advertise" in other tournament threads (I would think that would be annoying and disrespectful to the organizer of those tournaments). What about in game chat? For me, I don't know that I want to constantly see posts in the chat about this tournament or that tournament so I could see that as being annoying or not allowed. I've seen others suggest PM'ing players, but I haven't really built any online "relationships" with other players yet. So who do I target?

I really don't want to annoy people with trying to be overly pro-active in recruiting and don't want to step on any toes, so I'm curious what the best ways are to recruit in a proper manner.

Thanks.


One thing to keep in mind Kilo13, is that if your tournament does not fill, it may not be a format that players want to participate in (no, I haven't looked at it yet).

You are correct It would be annoying and disrespectful to recruit players in other tournament threads (or other forums), as well as in the game chat.

Tournament Organizers that have completed some successful tournaments typically build up a "mailing list" of participants, which you could use to get your tournament filled. It is an option often used, but here you also need to be careful not to be annoying and/or disrespectful and avoid abuse.

Indiscriminate mass-pms are a no-no.

Maybe, in your case, you could use your signature to find some more players. Or simply be more patient, your tournament has a month to fill. ;)

Lx

Posting this question here may just get you the few players you're missing. :D
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Re: Tournament recruitment etiquette

Postby barterer2002 on Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:50 pm

There are a couple of other ideas you can use.

1). If you've got a specific map or format you're using, even if its an unpopular one, you might do a quick search to see which players are currently playing on that format and invite some of them (respectfully). So for instance if you were using a manual, nuclear, foggy, freestyle type of format you might search to see if anyone was playing games with those settings and invite a few of them along to play in your tournament.
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Re: Tournament recruitment etiquette

Postby Kiko13 on Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:12 pm

I appreciate the feedback. Annoying people is the last thing I want to do so your comments were very helpful. I did add a signature, good idea.

And I can certainly understand people may just not like the format of my tournament. I did get a 14th player today so I'm not worried about filling it. Like I said, this was more for future reference than my current tournament.

Thanks again.
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Re: Tournament recruitment etiquette

Postby greenoaks on Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:51 pm

Kiko13 wrote:I appreciate the feedback. Annoying people is the last thing I want to do so your comments were very helpful. I did add a signature, good idea.

And I can certainly understand people may just not like the format of my tournament. I did get a 14th player today so I'm not worried about filling it. Like I said, this was more for future reference than my current tournament.

Thanks again.

i tend not to join those tournaments because they drag on for a long time which increases the chances of deadbeats, grinding the tournament to a halt. i love how you have recently addressed that so i have posted in the thread that i'll join.


as for your query:-

i have run a tourney on AOR3 and one on AOR3. they are popular maps so that speeds things up. plus i used the Scoreboard Server to get a list of people really good at the map to pm. & as i play those maps a lot i had a 'list' of people i play with and against that i could let know via game chat or message.

my most recent one is a Random map tourney and knowing most of my clan is chasing that medal i pm'd all of them with a link to the thread (only to be knocked out in the 1st round by a pair of them :shock: ).

so i guess what i am saying is it gets easier to fill them as your connection with the other players here grows.
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Re: Tournament recruitment etiquette

Postby Kiko13 on Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:34 pm

Cool, thanks for joining and thanks for the comments. These are helpful as well.
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Re: Tournament recruitment etiquette

Postby Lindax on Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:45 pm

greenoaks wrote:my most recent one is a Random map tourney and knowing most of my clan is chasing that medal i pm'd all of them with a link to the thread.


As a general observation for everybody: Be careful with things like this because you could be found to violate the "50% open to the public rule". In this particular example: If more than half of the spaces are filled up by your clan mates, that rule could come into play.

I say could because as long as the organizer waits long enough (several days, a week or so) before specifically PMing his clan mates, that should allow enough time for them to either sign up naturally or get enough public players to not have to worry about the 50% rule.

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Re: Tournament recruitment etiquette

Postby greenoaks on Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:49 pm

Lindax wrote:
greenoaks wrote:my most recent one is a Random map tourney and knowing most of my clan is chasing that medal i pm'd all of them with a link to the thread.


As a general observation for everybody: Be careful with things like this because you could be found to violate the "50% open to the public rule". In this particular example: If more than half of the spaces are filled up by your clan mates, that rule could come into play.

Lx

it was just a pm to let them know of a great new tournament from an awesome TO :D & they would have to be quick.

as none of them were reserved a spot and they signed up for approx. 40% of the slots, its all good.
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Re: Tournament recruitment etiquette

Postby Lindax on Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:53 pm

greenoaks wrote:
Lindax wrote:
greenoaks wrote:my most recent one is a Random map tourney and knowing most of my clan is chasing that medal i pm'd all of them with a link to the thread.


As a general observation for everybody: Be careful with things like this because you could be found to violate the "50% open to the public rule". In this particular example: If more than half of the spaces are filled up by your clan mates, that rule could come into play.

Lx

it was just a pm to let them know of a great new tournament from an awesome TO :D & they would have to be quick.

as none of them were reserved a spot and they signed up for approx. 40% of the slots, its all good.


I know. I wasn't accusing you. I was merely pointing out a potential issue for everybody to keep in mind. :D

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Re: Tournament recruitment etiquette

Postby barterer2002 on Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:01 pm

I understand what you're saying here Lindax but have to disagree in general. There are a couple of comments you've made here that I want to disagree with for discussion.

1).
Obviously mass-pms are a no-no.
Tell me why? Do you think that HA got his 2000 in the 200th tournament without using some mass PMs? I've used them in filling 500+ tournaments in the past. I personally have two parts to mass PMs. The first is previous player lists which you seem to indicate are OK within limits, the second are the unsoliticiated ones that you indicate are not. I would guess that many TOs who have used larger tournament formats have used them in the past and would contend that in some cases they've been instrumental in building the tournament section of CC by bringing new players into the fold. Part of the responsibility of a good TO is to get the tournament to begin in a timely fashion and sometimes, especially for larger formats. Now, I haven't done it for a few years as I tend to have enough players who have participated in previous tournaments that if needed, I can send a PM to those players and fill almost any sized tournament. That doesn't mean that I agree that its a No-no. Especially for a new organizer I'd support the idea of building the tournament area by bringing in new players and sometimes that's with a mass PM.

2.
As a general observation for everybody: Be careful with things like this because you could be found to violate the "50% open to the public rule". In this particular example: If more than half of the spaces are filled up by your clan mates, that rule could come into play.

I say could because as long as the organizer waits long enough (several days, a week or so) before specifically PMing his clan mates, that should allow enough time for them to either sign up naturally or get enough public players to not have to worry about the 50% rule.


I disagree again. Our clan forum specifically has a thread where we can post new tournaments so our clan mates can see what we're doing. Now, being G1, we tend to have a lot of tournaments running at any one time of course so not everyone joins everything but its there for all clan mates to see. I've also in the past, filled tournaments in less than an hour by sending to my previous players list. Now, I stopped sending to them because I didn't want to fill quite that quickly but I'm not sure how that's different in theory.

Yes I understand that it could be abused and that you're not saying that it has been here but I worry about the idea that there are limits being placed on the abilities of TOs to market their tournaments. One of the things a good marketer will do is put their product out there in front of as many people as possible, particularly those who are more pre qualified. In some ways it seems like what's happening is that TOs are being somewhat limited to having their tournament posted and having to sit back and wait for people to find it and I do have an issue with that idea. If a TO wants to sit back and take the Retail approach where they just wait for players to come into their door and buy the product that's OK but if the TO wants to get out there and market they should be able to, within reason, and the things being discouraged here seem to me to be within reason.
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Re: Tournament recruitment etiquette

Postby Lindax on Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:21 pm

barterer2002 wrote:I understand what you're saying here Lindax but have to disagree in general. There are a couple of comments you've made here that I want to disagree with for discussion.

1).
Obviously mass-pms are a no-no.
Tell me why? Do you think that HA got his 2000 in the 200th tournament without using some mass PMs? I've used them in filling 500+ tournaments in the past. I personally have two parts to mass PMs. The first is previous player lists which you seem to indicate are OK within limits, the second are the unsoliticiated ones that you indicate are not. I would guess that many TOs who have used larger tournament formats have used them in the past and would contend that in some cases they've been instrumental in building the tournament section of CC by bringing new players into the fold. Part of the responsibility of a good TO is to get the tournament to begin in a timely fashion and sometimes, especially for larger formats. Now, I haven't done it for a few years as I tend to have enough players who have participated in previous tournaments that if needed, I can send a PM to those players and fill almost any sized tournament. That doesn't mean that I agree that its a No-no. Especially for a new organizer I'd support the idea of building the tournament area by bringing in new players and sometimes that's with a mass PM.


I was responding to the question of a new TO who doesn't have a mailing list (yet). I did not want to encourage him to send mass PMs to whomever he can think of.

I could have worded it better: Indiscriminate mass PMs are a no-no (or something like that). I'll actually edit that first post.

Good that you bring HAs 200th tournament up. There were several issues related to that tournament and mass PMs. Several people abused mass PMing and were warned. Besides that, you are implying that one can do whatever one can to fill a tournament as long as it's big enough. That is something I definitely would not want to encourage in public.

barterer2002 wrote:2.
As a general observation for everybody: Be careful with things like this because you could be found to violate the "50% open to the public rule". In this particular example: If more than half of the spaces are filled up by your clan mates, that rule could come into play.

I say could because as long as the organizer waits long enough (several days, a week or so) before specifically PMing his clan mates, that should allow enough time for them to either sign up naturally or get enough public players to not have to worry about the 50% rule.


I disagree again. Our clan forum specifically has a thread where we can post new tournaments so our clan mates can see what we're doing. Now, being G1, we tend to have a lot of tournaments running at any one time of course so not everyone joins everything but its there for all clan mates to see. I've also in the past, filled tournaments in less than an hour by sending to my previous players list. Now, I stopped sending to them because I didn't want to fill quite that quickly but I'm not sure how that's different in theory.

Yes I understand that it could be abused and that you're not saying that it has been here but I worry about the idea that there are limits being placed on the abilities of TOs to market their tournaments. One of the things a good marketer will do is put their product out there in front of as many people as possible, particularly those who are more pre qualified. In some ways it seems like what's happening is that TOs are being somewhat limited to having their tournament posted and having to sit back and wait for people to find it and I do have an issue with that idea. If a TO wants to sit back and take the Retail approach where they just wait for players to come into their door and buy the product that's OK but if the TO wants to get out there and market they should be able to, within reason, and the things being discouraged here seem to me to be within reason.


I worded my statement very carefully and I stand by it.

I know most clans have some "join tournaments" thread and I can assure you that if we notice that a tournament fills up quick, with all members of the same clan, we will certainly have a look into that.

Same with a tournament filling up within an hour with players that were all PM'd by the TO.

Those 2 examples you give could mean a violation of the 50% rule. Now, in most cases that will be hard to prove and it also doesn't mean that the TO systematically abuses the system. So, those 2 examples are practices that I would not encourage and I feel it's not incorrect to warn a new TO about the potential consequences.

Why not have your tournament open for sign-up for a few days and then send PMs to your mailing list and/or post in the clan forum? Then you make sure that the public has ample chance to sign up as well.

You know as well as I do that we're in a kind of gray area here and sometimes TOs walk a very fine line. I'm simply trying to keep them on the right side of that line.

Finally, I agree totally with this:

....if the TO wants to get out there and market they should be able to, within reason.


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Re: Tournament recruitment etiquette

Postby barterer2002 on Wed Apr 20, 2011 3:37 pm

In general I think we're on the same side here. I understand that the TDs need to have the flexability to disallow certain types of things and I certainly encourage all TOs to leave a tournament open for 24-48 hours before sending out PMs (in fact its required for a longer period in TPA sanctioned events).

I'm not saying that one can do whatever one wants as long as a tournament is big enough and didn't mean to imply that, I apologize for doing so. I do think that recruiting from among players that don't currently participate in tournaments can be a good thing though (and larger format tournaments simply lend themselves to this type of recruiting more easily than smaller tournaments simply because there will still be space available).

There are certainly a few things that one should follow when mass PMing but from where I sit that's more of an etiquette thing than a hard and fast rule. These would include use of BCC rather than To, it would include not sending the same invites to the same people over and over, it would include not solely targeting certain types of players (unless its a tournament that is designed simply for a certain segment)

So with that in mind, I'd have to question what would constitute "mass pm abuse?"
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Re: Tournament recruitment etiquette

Postby Lindax on Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:00 pm

barterer2002 wrote:In general I think we're on the same side here. I understand that the TDs need to have the flexability to disallow certain types of things and I certainly encourage all TOs to leave a tournament open for 24-48 hours before sending out PMs (in fact its required for a longer period in TPA sanctioned events).

I'm not saying that one can do whatever one wants as long as a tournament is big enough and didn't mean to imply that, I apologize for doing so. I do think that recruiting from among players that don't currently participate in tournaments can be a good thing though (and larger format tournaments simply lend themselves to this type of recruiting more easily than smaller tournaments simply because there will still be space available).

There are certainly a few things that one should follow when mass PMing but from where I sit that's more of an etiquette thing than a hard and fast rule. These would include use of BCC rather than To, it would include not sending the same invites to the same people over and over, it would include not solely targeting certain types of players (unless its a tournament that is designed simply for a certain segment)

So with that in mind, I'd have to question what would constitute "mass pm abuse?"


I agree that you and and I and other TDs and experienced TOs are mostly on the same side and the same page. More often than not it all comes down to the wording I guess. None of us want abuse to take place, nor a whole books of strict rules for every detail.

As I said about the mass PMing: It's a bit of a gray area, because there are hardly any written rules about it. It is indeed more etiquette and what's considered fair or not.

Some mass PM practices, in relation with tournaments, that should be avoided IMHO (although they don't necessarily constitute abuse in all cases):

    The 3 examples you give.

    Using your mailing list the moment your tournament is created.

    Using somebody elses mailing list or give yours to other TOs.

    Copy and paste the "currently online" players on the bottom of the main forum.

    Send mass PMs for somebody elses tournament.

There are probably more examples, but this is what I can think of quickly.

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Re: Tournament recruitment etiquette

Postby Night Strike on Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:50 pm

I think a PM/recruiting etiquette post would be a great thing for someone to write up and include in the Tournament Handbook.
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