Drafts / Design Briefs [Discussion]

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Re: Drafts / Design Briefs [Discussion]

Postby lostatlimbo on Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:19 pm

DiM wrote:how can a mapmaker keep his focus and dedication on a project if that project takes 1 year or more?

if i could start 20 maps at the same time i probably wouldn't be bothered by this because i'd constantly have a map on my hands to update or fiddle with. but i can't. i'm the kind of person that gets 100% into a project and does his best to finish it as fast and as good as possible before moving on to the next. plus i understand there's a 3 map limit per user...


Word.
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Re: Drafts / Design Briefs [Discussion]

Postby lostatlimbo on Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:46 pm

I see both sides of this. Mapmakers sometimes just need some feedback from the community to turn crap into gold. Other times, the process is hopeless and wasting everyone's time.

But once a draft is submitted, perhaps it is worth trying to address the weaknesses before dismissing it outright?

If a map has a very nice style/look, but poor gameplay concept - give it a trial in the gameplay workshop to see if that can be fixed by input.

If a map has a great concept, but looks terrible, give it a trial run in the graphics workshop to see if the community can help or if another designer wishes to help.

If, after the trial period, the primary issue has not shown progress, then it can be recycled.

That seems like a good way to keep crummy maps from spending too much time in the Drafting Room, but will keep open for the possibility that the proposed map is solid, but just needs a little direction. I think the people who have the best minds for Gameplay or Graphics probably spend the bulk of their "map-time" in those respective sub-forums and maybe pay little mind to those maps in the infant stages of the Draft room. But giving maps with some potential (but serious flaws) a quick look-over by those folks would be just what is needed?

I've had a couple maps get stalled in the Draft stages. They were well received (well Human Body anyway), but in that sub-forum, the suggestions for addressing issues was... limited. I wonder if the same people that
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Re: Drafts / Design Briefs [Discussion]

Postby DiM on Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:53 pm

DiM wrote:i think we should have 3 subforums:
1. map ideas/drafts - where people come and make a suggestion and propose a draft. this will have to be a rather hard place to get out of just as you pointed above.
2. maps in progress - where everything from graphics to gameplay or theme gets tackled and solved. no more mapmakers not wanting to implement graphics because they're in gameplay subforum or not wanting to change gameplay just because they moved on to graphics. it's a map maker's duty to channel his and his followers' focus onto what needs to be solved.
3. final forge/finished maps - final tweaks


now that the above suggestion was implemented i have a little beef with the sticky topics in main foundry workshop.
i think that maps which are close to final forge should be stickied there. right now we have sticky maps that haven;t even starte work on graphics. so leave all maps non-sticky as they can be easily differentiated from the coloured markers and sticky those that are really close to final forge.
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Re: Drafts / Design Briefs [Discussion]

Postby natty dread on Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:57 pm

DiM wrote:
DiM wrote:i think we should have 3 subforums:
1. map ideas/drafts - where people come and make a suggestion and propose a draft. this will have to be a rather hard place to get out of just as you pointed above.
2. maps in progress - where everything from graphics to gameplay or theme gets tackled and solved. no more mapmakers not wanting to implement graphics because they're in gameplay subforum or not wanting to change gameplay just because they moved on to graphics. it's a map maker's duty to channel his and his followers' focus onto what needs to be solved.
3. final forge/finished maps - final tweaks


now that the above suggestion was implemented i have a little beef with the sticky topics in main foundry workshop.
i think that maps which are close to final forge should be stickied there. right now we have sticky maps that haven;t even starte work on graphics. so leave all maps non-sticky as they can be easily differentiated from the coloured markers and sticky those that are really close to final forge.


Agreed
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Re: Drafts / Design Briefs [Discussion]

Postby MrBenn on Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:43 pm

The point of the stickies is to focus maps which are on the brink of stamping, whether that be for gameplay or graphics. There's no reason to really complain about the graphics of a map with only a red stamp
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Re: Drafts / Design Briefs [Discussion]

Postby DiM on Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:10 pm

MrBenn wrote:The point of the stickies is to focus maps which are on the brink of stamping, whether that be for gameplay or graphics. There's no reason to really complain about the graphics of a map with only a red stamp



no offence but if that's the purpose then i can clearly say it's not working as it should.

let's look at some of the maps.

portland is sticky so apparently it's on the brink of stamping for graphics.
but, 6 weeks ago it was last updated. then for 2 weeks nobody bothered to give feedback and all of a sudden it was stickied despite a severe lack of interest. then 1 month later. it got only 7 more posts and it was recycled. now it's sticky again as if it's just a matter of minutes before it's final forged.
clearly the map is not so close to final forge as the sticky would indicate. it's more likely that the map belongs to the main area with other non-sticky threads.

divine meteorological map is another weird sticky.
it started in nov 2009 and didn't even get a full page of feedback before it was abandoned. resurrected in march 2010 it got a few more posts and went to sleep again waiting for xml changes. resurrected 1 year later in march 2011 the map is barely in the gameplay discussion and it's stickied. in the last 3 months it had just 1 update and less than 15 post. so again clearly not a map with huge interest and an imminent stamp on it's way.

i mean no disrespect to lostatlimbo and evil dimwit and i have nothing against their maps. i just used them as examples to portray my concern about the current sticky system.
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Re: Drafts / Design Briefs [Discussion]

Postby natty dread on Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:46 pm

Dim, the thing is, we don't get that much feedback in the foundry these days. People just don't care, or maybe it's because lots of people seem to have a view of the foundry as an "elitist" place that is hard to approach.

Maps usually only get feedback in the draft stage and again when they're in beta. Other than that, mapmakers have to go by feedback of other mapmakers and foundry mods.

It's not ideal, and every now and then efforts are made to bring more people in the foundry... but so far the efforts have proven to be pretty ineffective.
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Re: Drafts / Design Briefs [Discussion]

Postby DiM on Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:09 pm

natty_dread wrote:Dim, the thing is, we don't get that much feedback in the foundry these days. People just don't care, or maybe it's because lots of people seem to have a view of the foundry as an "elitist" place that is hard to approach.

Maps usually only get feedback in the draft stage and again when they're in beta. Other than that, mapmakers have to go by feedback of other mapmakers and foundry mods.

It's not ideal, and every now and then efforts are made to bring more people in the foundry... but so far the efforts have proven to be pretty ineffective.



sadly i am aware of the lack of feedback in the foundry but still you can't tell me that 5-7 posts per month is a normal average. indeed it's not like a few years ago where one would get a page per day but i can still see several maps that get much more than 5-7 posts per month so it is possible.

also a big cause of that lack of feedback is because of the map makers. if you give people lots of updates then you keep the interest high and people keep coming and giving you feedback.

i'm gonna use portland as an example again. on june 19th i gave a bunch of feedback. 3 days later the map maker said it will be done. 3 weeks have passed and still nothing. now, even if i might have more feedback i'd like to give, i honestly won't bother to do it until i see something is actually done otherwise i'm just wasting my time.
i've had an update on almost every page of my map. and after each update people came and commented. it's not just about giving people something to talk about but also making them feel appreciated. if i give feedback on a map and the very next day or even the same day i see that the map makers implements my request even if it's just to prove me wrong or see what it might look like, i will feel that the map maker appreciates my input, respects it and wants me to come back for more.
and i'm not the only one that does this. look at cairnswk's maps he often has more updates than the number of pages in his threads. that means people get often updates and the map maker really cares.

of course some people just don't have the time to post such regular updates and honestly it's not a big issue. it just means their map will develop slower. but if other people can update often and get lots of feedback it means the foundry is not so dead as some might think. there's still hope.
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Re: Drafts / Design Briefs [Discussion]

Postby natty dread on Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:21 pm

DiM wrote:also a big cause of that lack of feedback is because of the map makers. if you give people lots of updates then you keep the interest high and people keep coming and giving you feedback.


Well, I've seen maps that have been updated pretty regularly, to the point where there's more of the mapmaker's posts than comments... there's just not enough interest from the public to comment on maps in development - the foundry is more and more becoming a closed community, where the same people comment on all the threads...
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Re: Drafts / Design Briefs [Discussion]

Postby DiM on Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:48 pm

back in the old days it was also a semi-closed community with few new people coming in. it's just that it was a bigger community back then.
one way to get new people to come would be to host monthly contests with prizes. most people would like to make a map but they're either incapable of doing the graphics or are afraid of the cut-throat world the foundry represents. or even both. what if each month we would have a gameplay contest where anybody that can't do graphics comes up with a paint sketch that has great gameplay. the winner is selected through a vote gets X months of premium as a prize and then somebody makes the graphics for that map. of course a team of map makers would have to be standing by to take over the graphics for such maps. perhaps in a rotation system or something like that.
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Re: Drafts / Design Briefs [Discussion]

Postby natty dread on Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:37 pm

DiM wrote:back in the old days it was also a semi-closed community with few new people coming in. it's just that it was a bigger community back then.
one way to get new people to come would be to host monthly contests with prizes. most people would like to make a map but they're either incapable of doing the graphics or are afraid of the cut-throat world the foundry represents. or even both. what if each month we would have a gameplay contest where anybody that can't do graphics comes up with a paint sketch that has great gameplay. the winner is selected through a vote gets X months of premium as a prize and then somebody makes the graphics for that map. of course a team of map makers would have to be standing by to take over the graphics for such maps. perhaps in a rotation system or something like that.


I don't know... not to shoot down your idea, but we already have gameplay contests, and I'm not sure that having more of them is the solution here. The biggest flaw in a gameplay contest is that it totally bypasses the foundry process - most maps have to spend at least a month or two for gameplay development, but a contest winner gets a free pass. If we start having these contests every month, I'm afraid the quality of new maps would drop...
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Re: Drafts / Design Briefs [Discussion]

Postby MrBenn on Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:03 pm

DiM wrote:back in the old days it was also a semi-closed community with few new people coming in. it's just that it was a bigger community back then.

That's debatable. There are probably more people returning to make more maps than there used to be...
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Re: Drafts / Design Briefs [Discussion]

Postby DiM on Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:08 pm

natty_dread wrote:I don't know... not to shoot down your idea, but we already have gameplay contests, and I'm not sure that having more of them is the solution here. The biggest flaw in a gameplay contest is that it totally bypasses the foundry process - most maps have to spend at least a month or two for gameplay development, but a contest winner gets a free pass. If we start having these contests every month, I'm afraid the quality of new maps would drop...


i never said that it should bypass the foundry process. it would still need to be analysed and approved before moving forward.
also i had no idea gameplay contests are already happening. i'll search to see what they are like.
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Re: Drafts / Design Briefs [Discussion]

Postby cairnswk on Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:10 pm

natty_dread wrote:... If we start having these contests every month, I'm afraid the quality of new maps would drop...

Not necessarily natty...look at what is happening to Istanbul. Admittedly it was good graphic to start with, but that doens't mean it's an autoimatic pass to Quench.
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Re: Drafts / Design Briefs [Discussion]

Postby DiM on Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:11 pm

MrBenn wrote:
DiM wrote:back in the old days it was also a semi-closed community with few new people coming in. it's just that it was a bigger community back then.

That's debatable. There are probably more people returning to make more maps than there used to be...


could be. i obviously don't have clear numbers and i'm talking just from what i remember. my memories could very well be distorted by the passing of time.

anyway my point still stands. current stickies should be changed and only map close to final forge should have this status. more explanations here:

DiM wrote:
MrBenn wrote:The point of the stickies is to focus maps which are on the brink of stamping, whether that be for gameplay or graphics. There's no reason to really complain about the graphics of a map with only a red stamp



no offence but if that's the purpose then i can clearly say it's not working as it should.

let's look at some of the maps.

portland is sticky so apparently it's on the brink of stamping for graphics.
but, 6 weeks ago it was last updated. then for 2 weeks nobody bothered to give feedback and all of a sudden it was stickied despite a severe lack of interest. then 1 month later. it got only 7 more posts and it was recycled. now it's sticky again as if it's just a matter of minutes before it's final forged.
clearly the map is not so close to final forge as the sticky would indicate. it's more likely that the map belongs to the main area with other non-sticky threads.

divine meteorological map is another weird sticky.
it started in nov 2009 and didn't even get a full page of feedback before it was abandoned. resurrected in march 2010 it got a few more posts and went to sleep again waiting for xml changes. resurrected 1 year later in march 2011 the map is barely in the gameplay discussion and it's stickied. in the last 3 months it had just 1 update and less than 15 post. so again clearly not a map with huge interest and an imminent stamp on it's way.

i mean no disrespect to lostatlimbo and evil dimwit and i have nothing against their maps. i just used them as examples to portray my concern about the current sticky system.
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