Prevent New Members being farmed for points

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Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby *Snowman* on Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:13 pm

Prevent Newbie Farming:

[*]With New accounts (Question Marks) Give them points if they win a game but do not award points to the ranked player if they win. Or alternatively not award any points to either party untill they are ranked.


This will prevent farming of new recruits and allow players the settings they prefer without the worry of breaking cc rules.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby ad10r3tr0 on Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:47 pm

No way! wants to play the game if you don't get any benefits(points) out of it? What about this... under start new game, you have a ranked or unranked option. Ranked you play for points, unranked you do. When NR first start the website, they can only play unranked, however, they dont have a map restriction and can play any setting...
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby ad10r3tr0 on Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:47 pm

And games would be under unranked all the time, as people are trying to learn maps, etc?
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby TheForgivenOne on Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:56 pm

ad10r3tr0 wrote:No way! wants to play the game if you don't get any benefits(points) out of it? What about this... under start new game, you have a ranked or unranked option. Ranked you play for points, unranked you do. When NR first start the website, they can only play unranked, however, they dont have a map restriction and can play any setting...


How is what you suggested any different? Btw, Unranked games (No point games), has already been rejected countless times. Where's the risk in learning a map if you don't have to risk points to do it.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby ad10r3tr0 on Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:58 pm

My god, it was a quick re-suggestion... calm down
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby ad10r3tr0 on Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:59 pm

I would say most of us learned the game of Risk first on the classic map...what's wrong making the NR only play classic? for 5 or 10 games? i mean i would say almost everyone likes it, and that is what they learned on..
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby demonfork on Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:55 pm

How's about everyone calm down and have a nice tall glass of refreshing water.....

The "no systematic farming of new recruits" rule was created because of the actions of one and only one player...Maxatstuy.....he played new recruits only, his entire game strategy was based on joining in games against new recruits in hopes that they would deadbeat.

The rule was put in place to prevent players from doing what max did...

Playing against new recruits or having new recruits join your games from time to time is not against the rules.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby TheForgivenOne on Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:01 pm

demonfork wrote:Playing against new recruits or having new recruits join your games from time to time is not against the rules.


From time to time, yes. But if the only games you play attract New Recruits and you constantly set these games up over and over, than you will get warned/point reset.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby *Snowman* on Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:08 am

All the above comments are constructive. Thank you. My point though is does it really matter for the ? if they dont receive points until they have had ten games first? This lets them learn how to play and use the site. It would also stop bad ratings from experienced players who may be intolerant to learners. I enjoy certain settings on speed games. I make mistakes if I open too many at once (I am getting old lol) so recently I opened a few on the 24 games setting. Because it is the Classic 5 player sunny I have been bombarded with ? This is boreing, gives a false rank and gives me the fear of a warning from cc. Before this happens I have stopped opening any new games with those settings. I joined cc because I enjoy playing Risk. I feel I now can not play that particular map. To address the problem I feel ? should be able to play any map this would stop the concentration on to the Classic map. If they received zero points until their probation was finished (say ten games) they would then enter the games as an equal.
1. This would prevent Farming because there would be no point.
2. New recruits would not receive bad ratings for making mistakes early on in their first games.
3. All members could play the Maps, settings of their choice without the fear of being called a cheat.

cc at present decides to limit certain maps because of them being too complex for new recruits but will not allow the member to prevent ? from joining a game with a preference tool. Whats the difference, I should have the same right as another member to play my choice of maps.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby *Snowman* on Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:18 am

ad10r3tr0 - This members suggestion could also be a solution so thank you ad1.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby nebsmith on Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:57 pm

I would say no to all the suggestions here, I like the set up for NR's as it is.
I remember being a NR and a big part of the attraction was all the maps available to play on, if I had been confined to the classic map I may not have joined. Like many others, I assume, I had played Risk before joining this site both RL and PC and I find the classic map utterly boring, partly because is has fewer territories that the boardgame I learned on. I have played only one game on it.
As to neither gaining nor losing points for a certain number of games, I am not being funny, but what is the point of playing for nothing. If there is no penalty for losing and no reward for winning, then how much effort will new players put into these " no point " games. It might even lead to more dead beating, if after a minor setback there is no penalty for dropping out of the game.

Of my first 4 games on this site I lost the first 3 and won the fourth. I remember the pleasure of going from ? to private and coincidently opening up all the maps. I had been looking forward to Hive since joining and reading about it in the forums.
I think 4 games is enough to be stuck with the ? and wouldn't want to further limit the maps available to NR's. I believe that the more people we retain on this site the better for all of us and don't think further limitations on NR's will help with this.
If we have to put up with lots of NR's joining the game types we like I think it is worth it to retain the attractiveness of this site to new players.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby OliverFA on Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:33 am

It actually makes a lot of sense that the first few games on a map should be unrated. How many players win the first time they play a new map?
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:47 am

TheForgivenOne wrote:
demonfork wrote:Playing against new recruits or having new recruits join your games from time to time is not against the rules.


From time to time, yes. But if the only games you play attract New Recruits and you constantly set these games up over and over, than you will get warned/point reset.


Which is a really stupid rule, of course.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby TheForgivenOne on Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:51 pm

Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:
demonfork wrote:Playing against new recruits or having new recruits join your games from time to time is not against the rules.


From time to time, yes. But if the only games you play attract New Recruits and you constantly set these games up over and over, than you will get warned/point reset.


Which is a really stupid rule, of course.


Really? How so?
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:04 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:
demonfork wrote:Playing against new recruits or having new recruits join your games from time to time is not against the rules.


From time to time, yes. But if the only games you play attract New Recruits and you constantly set these games up over and over, than you will get warned/point reset.


Which is a really stupid rule, of course.


Really? How so?


The idea that you can be punished FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S ACTIONS is ludicrious. If someone is INVITING newbies to their games, sure then there's a case. But being punished because someone else joins your games of their own free choosing without impetus from you is an idiotic concept that goes against justice in almost every aspect. It's really quite sick, in my opinion.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby TheForgivenOne on Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:09 pm

Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:
demonfork wrote:Playing against new recruits or having new recruits join your games from time to time is not against the rules.


From time to time, yes. But if the only games you play attract New Recruits and you constantly set these games up over and over, than you will get warned/point reset.


Which is a really stupid rule, of course.


Really? How so?


The idea that you can be punished FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S ACTIONS is ludicrious. If someone is INVITING newbies to their games, sure then there's a case. But being punished because someone else joins your games of their own free choosing without impetus from you is an idiotic concept that goes against justice in almost every aspect. It's really quite sick, in my opinion.


So we should let people abuse this? People have already shot up the scoreboard because all they did was create settings, where 9/10 games had NR's join. And the few times actual opponents joined the games, said user dropped that game. You don't think that's gross abuse? Purposely TRYING to play NR's? Or why else would he have dropped games against opponents of actual calibur?
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:32 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:From time to time, yes. But if the only games you play attract New Recruits and you constantly set these games up over and over, than you will get warned/point reset.


Which is a really stupid rule, of course.


Really? How so?


The idea that you can be punished FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S ACTIONS is ludicrious. If someone is INVITING newbies to their games, sure then there's a case. But being punished because someone else joins your games of their own free choosing without impetus from you is an idiotic concept that goes against justice in almost every aspect. It's really quite sick, in my opinion.


So we should let people abuse this?


Abuse what? The rule should be that you can't JOIN GAMES with newbies...THAT is something you can control. As well, as I mentioned above, you should not be able to send invitations to newbies...again, THAT is something you can control. Who joins your games? You can't control that.

TheForgivenOne wrote:People have already shot up the scoreboard because all they did was create settings, where 9/10 games had NR's join.


So what? No, I mean seriously...why do we care? Since the site is 100% against any sort of rank restriction on games (something that has been requested many, many times by many, many users and found great support by users), then the site is effectively saying that they're ok with NRs joining whatever games they can. I, as a user who happens to like a particular game and setting, should not be punished simply because NRs happen to join my games (again, something which I cannot control).

TheForgivenOne wrote:And the few times actual opponents joined the games, said user dropped that game.


Ah, but you see, THAT is very much a different issue. THAT, once again, is something that the user is in control of. That "dropping of games" is absolutely grounds for punishment. Yet, you'll notice upon close inspection, that isn't what I was talking about at all.

TheForgivenOne wrote:Purposely TRYING to play NR's?


PURPOSELY trying to play NRs would mean they joined games with NRs, they invited NRs, or they dropped games once other users join them...absolutely, those should be punishable. But those are outside of the scope of my very clear point.

TheForgivenOne wrote:Or why else would he have dropped games against opponents of actual calibur?


Is it your contention that everyone who has been sanctioned (which includes warnings) under this rule have taken such an action? I would strongly suggest to you that's not the case at all. Thus, my point.

If the site wants to be serious about people not playing NRs all the time, then they should BE serious and implement some sort of real rank restriction. By placing the onus on the player to monitor themselves, they are effectively SETTING UP USERS TO BE PUNISHED. It's akin to entrapment. The site needs to make it impossible or quit bitching about it.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby TheForgivenOne on Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:33 pm

Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Which is a really stupid rule, of course.


Really? How so?


The idea that you can be punished FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S ACTIONS is ludicrious. If someone is INVITING newbies to their games, sure then there's a case. But being punished because someone else joins your games of their own free choosing without impetus from you is an idiotic concept that goes against justice in almost every aspect. It's really quite sick, in my opinion.


So we should let people abuse this?


Abuse what? The rule should be that you can't JOIN GAMES with newbies...THAT is something you can control. As well, as I mentioned above, you should not be able to send invitations to newbies...again, THAT is something you can control. Who joins your games? You can't control that.


lackattack wrote:"Newbie Farming" is the technique of setting up as many games as possible (either by starting or joining them) with New Recruits


According to that, STARTING GAMES WITH NEW RECRUITS is apart of the Farming rule. That players score is not representing there skill if they shoot up the scoreboard all because a ton on NR's deadbeat against him and he gets free points. You can't claim ignorance all because "WELL OTHER PEOPLE COULD EASILY JOIN", it's pretty obvious people aren't.

And you can easily just up the amount of players to 6, VIOLA! You won't get New Recruits.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby tkr4lf on Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:53 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:And you can easily just up the amount of players to 6, VIOLA! You won't get New Recruits.

I agree with this, you can easily change the amount of players. And this would be fine if only 5 player games were subject to this.

Unfortunately, some maps are better suited to say, 4 players, then they are to 6. Take Pelo War, for instance. With 4 players each player starts with 2 starting points. If you increase the number up to 6, then each player gets 1 starting point, and there are 2 empty starting points. This gives an unfair advantage to whoever gets lucky enough to drop next to one of these empty starting points. It shouldn't be the player's fault that NR's join the game that that player prefers to play.

This whole situation is basically false advertisement. People pay $25 to be able to play whatever games they wish to with whatever settings they wish to. That is the fundamental draw of this website. But, after joining up and paying that money, then they find out that they can't play a certain map with certain settings because NR's are drawn to that particular mix of map/settings. This is something that needs to be addressed.

The majority of users are in favor of some sort of rank segregation when it comes to NR's. Now the question is whether lack is going to do what his customers (which are always right, if I heard correctly) want, or what he thinks is best, even though a majority of customers disagree.

It's not right to punish people for playing the game they want to just because a majority of the people who come to this site for the first time are expecting a quick game of risk and find out that that is not what this site is at all, and thus never come back. That is not our fault.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:01 pm

TheForgivenOne wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
TheForgivenOne wrote:
Woodruff wrote:The idea that you can be punished FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S ACTIONS is ludicrious. If someone is INVITING newbies to their games, sure then there's a case. But being punished because someone else joins your games of their own free choosing without impetus from you is an idiotic concept that goes against justice in almost every aspect. It's really quite sick, in my opinion.


So we should let people abuse this?


Abuse what? The rule should be that you can't JOIN GAMES with newbies...THAT is something you can control. As well, as I mentioned above, you should not be able to send invitations to newbies...again, THAT is something you can control. Who joins your games? You can't control that.


lackattack wrote:"Newbie Farming" is the technique of setting up as many games as possible (either by starting or joining them) with New Recruits


According to that, STARTING GAMES WITH NEW RECRUITS is apart of the Farming rule.


First of all, it's IMPOSSIBLE to "start a game with new recruits". Aside from that, you've precisely hit upon my point. It's ridiculous that someone can be punished because of an action taken BY SOMEONE ELSE (in this case, the newbie joining the game). I'm not saying it's not the rule...I'm saying that the rule is insipid and ridiculous.

TheForgivenOne wrote:That players score is not representing there skill if they shoot up the scoreboard all because a ton on NR's deadbeat against him and he gets free points.


This is really no argument at all, given that it is a well-known situation that nobody's skill is accurately represented by their score ANYWAY. It just isn't, and everyone who is paying attention knows it.

TheForgivenOne wrote:You can't claim ignorance all because "WELL OTHER PEOPLE COULD EASILY JOIN", it's pretty obvious people aren't.


That isn't the game creators fault. Why is he punished for it?

TheForgivenOne wrote:And you can easily just up the amount of players to 6, VIOLA! You won't get New Recruits.


And the site can easily just implement some sort of rank restriction capability and VIOLA, you won't get new recruits and it would be IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to be wrongly accused of farming (because it would be obvious otherwise).
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Woodruff on Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:03 pm

tkr4lf wrote:This whole situation is basically false advertisement. People pay $25 to be able to play whatever games they wish to with whatever settings they wish to. That is the fundamental draw of this website. But, after joining up and paying that money, then they find out that they can't play a certain map with certain settings because NR's are drawn to that particular mix of map/settings. This is something that needs to be addressed.


Correct, this is an outstanding supplemental point.

tkr4lf wrote:The majority of users are in favor of some sort of rank segregation when it comes to NR's. Now the question is whether lack is going to do what his customers (which are always right, if I heard correctly) want, or what he thinks is best, even though a majority of customers disagree.


You would think that overwhelming support would catch his eye. However, that would require him to stop by his website from time to time and actually interact with his customers...and he doesn't seem to have much interest in that, either.

tkr4lf wrote:It's not right to punish people for playing the game they want to just because a majority of the people who come to this site for the first time are expecting a quick game of risk and find out that that is not what this site is at all, and thus never come back. That is not our fault.


Exactly.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Martin Ronne on Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:51 am

I too have to agree with Woodruff, as I also have a type of game I like to play. Though I'm afraid I can't argue too much as I am only freemium.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Dibbun on Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:59 am

This is such a stupid debate.

Just don't fucking farm

Not that damn hard. If all your games are being filled by ?'s then pick some different settings. No idea how people have 30+ games with all NR's and then are like "durrrrrr accident!"
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby tkr4lf on Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:56 am

Dibbun wrote:This is such a stupid debate.

Just don't fucking farm

Not that damn hard. If all your games are being filled by ?'s then pick some different settings. No idea how people have 30+ games with all NR's and then are like "durrrrrr accident!"

Noone here is saying that it's ok to farm.

The problem is when people are falsly accused of farming when in actuality, they are just playing the games that they like to play.

Did you even bother to read my or Woodruf's posts?

CC should eliminate this by making it to where NR's can only play other NR's, or maybe up to Corporal or so. That would pretty much eliminate farming of NR's and let people play whatever game they want with whatever settings. Both sides would win.

The way it is now, nobody wins. Farming still happens, and players can't play certain maps with certain settings for fear of being accused of farming. It's not a good situation and it needs to be rectified.
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Re: Prevent New Members being farmed for points

Postby Dibbun on Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:10 am

How hard is it to play a diverse group of players? Create 5 games with your favorite settings, join 5 other games...

though honestly farming is not really strictly enforced here (not criticizing mods, just saying) and really the only punishment that comes down is if you invite NR's.
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