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Re: We want you!

Postby TaCktiX on Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:00 pm

right now the CAs barely have 2-3 posts per week in the whole foundry.


Bulls***. I've posted on every single map that is currently working toward a gameplay stamp, oftentimes once per time the mapmaker has replied or updated. And I know I'm not the only one who maintains that level of activity on their section. While I plan to "branch out" to other parts, I'm trying to test my time to see if I can maintain what I'm officially responsible for. This is a completely part-time job for me, as it is for everyone else.
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Re: We want you!

Postby cairnswk on Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:19 pm

TaCktiX wrote:
right now the CAs barely have 2-3 posts per week in the whole foundry.


Bulls***. I've posted on every single map that is currently working toward a gameplay stamp, oftentimes once per time the mapmaker has replied or updated. And I know I'm not the only one who maintains that level of activity on their section. While I plan to "branch out" to other parts, I'm trying to test my time to see if I can maintain what I'm officially responsible for. This is a completely part-time job for me, as it is for everyone else.


TaCktiX...where is the list that states who is responsible for which section?
I found the CAs list, but it would be nice if we could see who is responsible for what.

Oh, and while i had Spanish Armada in development, after it was Draft stamped on Jul 6 by IH, and moved to vacation on Jul 20 (at my request) by isaiah40, i didn't see a post in there from any of the CAs, and it was working its way towards a gameplay stamp. So i'm kind of feeling a bit of bull**** is going on there.
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Re: We want you!

Postby Nola_Lifer on Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:26 pm

It would be interesting to have the Map Foundry linked with other map making forums on the internet. I did a google search and found some forums and website with some beautiful map makers. They may not be into conquering or CC in general but if they like making maps then get their asses in here :!: :!:
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Re: We want you!

Postby DiM on Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:41 pm

TaCktiX wrote:
right now the CAs barely have 2-3 posts per week in the whole foundry.


Bulls***. I've posted on every single map that is currently working toward a gameplay stamp, oftentimes once per time the mapmaker has replied or updated. And I know I'm not the only one who maintains that level of activity on their section. While I plan to "branch out" to other parts, I'm trying to test my time to see if I can maintain what I'm officially responsible for. This is a completely part-time job for me, as it is for everyone else.


july 19th - no posts
july 20th - 1 post active map
july 21st - 2 posts in active maps
july 22nd - 1 post in a non active map
july 23rd - no posts
july 24th - 1 post active map
july 25th - 1 post active map
july 26th - no posts

that's 6 posts in 8 days for you

redbaron0 has 10 posts in the last 21 days
iancanton has 15 posts in the last 3 months
MarshalNey has 10 posts this whole month

yes some post more some post less and i'm pretty sure that each one looks at the maps even if he doesn't post. as i said i don't want to upset anybody and i appreciate each and everyone's contribution weather it's 2 posts or 2000 posts. but the problem is that right now the foundry is not the perfect place for a new guy to start map making.

imagine this. he comes in posts a map, he has a solid gameplay and a decent draft and some people even showed interest. but it takes a whole week before an official posts in his map and moves it to drafting room. then it takes even more time before he gets to the main foundry and in this whole time he struggles to get feedback from people without getting much input from officials. a new map maker would feel much more confident if a CA would come and encourage him, give him some tips and advice, explain him how the foundry process works etc.
and when he gets to the main foundry he's in for a hell ride. months upon months of waiting and waiting and begging for feedback and more waiting and a CA responding rarely and so on.
anyway i do not want to turn this in to a CA bashing. all i want is to point out that we need more involvement from the current CAs/FAs and perhaps even recruiting more. if a mapmaker gets encouraged early in the process he's more likely to stay. if then he gets constant feedback especially from CAs/FAs he's more likely to work hard on his map. all this, together with a much faster map making process is guaranteed to produce a better retention rate for map makers and feedback givers. then as the word spreads out of how kind and helpful the CAs are, more and more people will flock to the foundry to be a part of the map making process.
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Re: We want you!

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:30 pm

I can at least vouch for MarshalNey - he was only just recently added back to the CAs. He had computer troubles and was gone for like an entire month. Not to pick favorites here, but he's someone I admire a lot for his contributions to the Foundry. You'll find he's consistent and he's always insightful and types friggen dissertations on map gameplay.

That being said, DiM and cairns have some points here.

And cairns, I believe Industrial Helix and the FAs are in charge of the Drafting Room/Melting Pot, TaCktiX, MarshalNey, and iancanton are Gameplay, isaiah40 and RedBaron0 are Graphics, OliverFA is XML, and nobodies is Final Forge. But yes, a task/assignment list would be nice.

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Re: We want you!

Postby cairnswk on Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:42 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:....
And cairns, I believe Industrial Helix and the FAs are in charge of the Drafting Room/Melting Pot, TaCktiX, MarshalNey, and iancanton are Gameplay, isaiah40 and RedBaron0 are Graphics, OliverFA is XML, and nobodies is Final Forge. But yes, a task/assignment list would be nice.

-Sully


Thanks Sully, that's helpful.
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Re: We want you!

Postby DiM on Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:58 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:I can at least vouch for MarshalNey - he was only just recently added back to the CAs. He had computer troubles and was gone for like an entire month. Not to pick favorites here, but he's someone I admire a lot for his contributions to the Foundry. You'll find he's consistent and he's always insightful and types friggen dissertations on map gameplay.


i'm sure none of them does it on purpose or deliberately chooses not to give feedback because he's evil or something :)
and as i said before i totally understand the time problem and life getting in the way of CC. that happens and when it does there's very little we can do about it. but to an outsider looking for support it might not always look like this. he will probably interpret the lack of feedback from CAs as a lack of interest and promptly leave.

one thing i hate the most is seeing a map with no action for a long time. if the map maker hasn't posted an update in a few days and nobody else posted then an official could pop in the thread and simply ask how's it going. it's a small thing that takes just a minute but to the map maker it might actually mean something. right now an official comes after X weeks and says "if you don't post an update next week we'll recycle you" that's cold and only in extreme cases recycling should happen. of course i'm not in favour of keeping dead topics around but we should do whatever it takes to prevent those threads from dying. there are few people giving feedback and unfortunately if we want the foundry to keep a high level of quality the officials must pitch in a bit more and help. ideally we would have an abundance of feedback givers and the CAs would simply oversee things and pop in from time to time to make sure things are on the right track. sadly this is not the case.
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Re: We want you!

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:25 pm

cairnswk wrote:...where is the list that states who is responsible for which section?
I found the CAs list, but it would be nice if we could see who is responsible for what.


DiM wrote:but the problem is that right now the foundry is not the perfect place for a new guy to start map making.


Luckily we're working to solve those issues. I'd like to have all the necessary informations updated , easy to gather and quick to read. The addition of the Foundry Assistants should also help the new mapmakers and have more eyes on maps, that exactly what you (dim) are you asking for. Another betterment (to have a more userfriendly Foundry) is already planned and it will be ready to go in few days.

DiM wrote:anyway i do not want to turn this in to a CA bashing.


You're free to voice your opinion. Moreover your opinion is welcome. Please remember that my first objective is to give to you the Foundry that YOU want.
Really, I'm very happy that there's a so open discussion about how to make things better. :)

About the amount of CAs posts, I don't think is the right way to see the Foundry process. Even if it's true that we could post a bit more, I have to remind you (like gimil did with me) that CAs are here to facilitate the Foundry process, not to rule it. If I have to be honest and I have to find where the Foundry lacks of something, then I think that there's lack of community partecipation into the developement. Nowdays it's like maps fall from the sky...if you get what I mean. That's a bad thought and it is hard to fix...at least in few time. :P

But don't worry, it's just matter of time. ;)
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Re: We want you!

Postby MrBenn on Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:03 pm

The "daily public-post test" will fail to capture the amount of PMs, IMs and other communications that the CAs make. Yeah, there are some of the CAs with busy lives (RedBaron0, iancanton, MarshalNey, Industrial Helix and TackTix have all been on restricted duties over the past couple of months), and there probably could be more visibility from the blue brigade but - nobodies is right - the community should be responsible for driving maps forward.

With due respect to Coleman (who is DA MAN!), his omnipresence in the foundry back in his heydey may have contributed to his eventual burnout? Certainly, I know from experience that it is impossible to follow 20-30 map threads simultaneously and still retain control of a daily life in the real world. There are a couple of people who seem to be omnipresent in the foundry nowadays, although I would personally question the ability of these people to lead and guide the foundry while retaining the standards to which we have become accustomed. Given a choice between omnipresence and omnipotence, I would genuinely prefer the latter (with the proviso that the omnipotence was built upon the foundations of a community spirit).
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Re: We want you!

Postby ender516 on Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:08 pm

DiM wrote:
ender516 wrote:On the face of it, the idea of a Feedback Committee is good, but I am not sure how it differs from the current Map Surveyors group, or the earlier Map Incubator concept.


i don't know who belongs to the map surveyors group or what happened to the incubator concept. all i know is that we need more input from the CAs and FAs.
out of curiosity i looked at some of my old map threads. they're filled with posts from the officials. keyogi, despite our numerous differences and disputes, took his time and posted in my thread on every page, sometimes even on a daily basis. andy was present as well. right now the CAs barely have 2-3 posts per week in the whole foundry. don't get me wrong, i understand that people have personal lives and free time is a very valuable commodity. heck, this is the very reason i left CC 3 years ago, i had no time. so keep the current CAs as their experience is invaluable, get more FAs from the "young generation" and form that Committee that gives feedback daily not weekly.


oh, and feedback from this committee should in no way be regarded as 100% official. they simply have to pop in a and comment like i do or like any other foundry user does.


The Map Incubator Experiment attempted to increase the amount of useful feedback by assigning a team of eight to follow a map (or a few maps) from inception to the forge. The team did not consist of CAs or FAs, just interested parties with a mix of experience. They were to be part of the driving force behind the map, leaving the Big Blue Team simply to stamp. After four weeks, it was declared a failure.

The [Official] Map Surveyors group is essentially a mailing list of people who wish to be notified when a map is approaching its next stamp, presumably so that they can get their digs in. I don't know whether this actually increases activity in the map threads, but I suspect it does some. The last PM I got this way (I think) was July 6. I don't recall just how often these usually come out, but I suspect the change in Foundry leadership may have disrupted the schedule.

The point I was driving at was that a Feedback Committee may seem good on paper, but I don't see what it will do that isn't being done or hasn't already been tried.

I wonder if declining general interest in the Foundry isn't just a matter of the Foundry being a victim of its own success. With the huge number of maps available, I doubt many people say to themselves, "I'm sick of all these, I need something new!" So perhaps the vast majority of CC users are content with the selection they have now, and don't dive into the Foundry to push for the next killer map. Without that grass roots support, the development of new maps will have to depend on the small diehard group of people who enjoy this process at any speed, perhaps simply for its own sake.
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Re: We want you!

Postby DiM on Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:17 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:About the amount of CAs posts, I don't think is the right way to see the Foundry process. Even if it's true that we could post a bit more, I have to remind you (like gimil did with me) that CAs are here to facilitate the Foundry process, not to rule it. If I have to be honest and I have to find where the Foundry lacks of something, then I think that there's lack of community partecipation into the developement.


back when gimil was a CA we had something closer to what i said earlier: "ideally we would have an abundance of feedback givers and the CAs would simply oversee things and pop in from time to time to make sure things are on the right track. sadly this is not the case."

and that's how a foundry should work but it never did. it aimed for that ideal situation and at moments it even came close but it was never quite enough. and right now it seems at an all time low regarding the community feedback.

and without feedback maps can't be created and if they are then they'll be of poor quality. that's why i think CAs must step in (at least temporary) and help the map making process. they must do what the community doesn't and that's providing good quality feedback. until people are somehow convinced to come back in the foundry and help this is what must be done if we want to preserve quality and keep around whatever map makers are still left.

i don't want to see any more maps abandoned/vacationed/forgotten.

i was just wondering earlier today what happened to istanbul map. i went to the thread and saw that the mapmaker posted an update on july 1st. since then just 2 people bothered to post in the thread. imho an official should have bothered to check up on the situation. to show the map maker that his work does not go unnoticed and that his map should not be abandoned.
imagine isn2 has had personal reasons not to post in the thread. perhaps he's been sick and didn't have time to work on the map. tomorrow he gets well and anxiously comes back to CC only to realise that no official actually cared for his map. he probably won't even bother saying anything and just leave.
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Re: We want you!

Postby DiM on Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:30 pm

ender516 wrote:I wonder if declining general interest in the Foundry isn't just a matter of the Foundry being a victim of its own success. With the huge number of maps available, I doubt many people say to themselves, "I'm sick of all these, I need something new!" So perhaps the vast majority of CC users are content with the selection they have now, and don't dive into the Foundry to push for the next killer map. Without that grass roots support, the development of new maps will have to depend on the small diehard group of people who enjoy this process at any speed, perhaps simply for its own sake.


you know i was thinking the same thing and i might have a solution. however it might not be something that many people would like.
simply weed out the poor maps. when a map falls under a certain performance standard simply remove it. there are maps who did not get in 2 YEARS as many games as classic does in 2-3 DAYS.
do we really need 190 maps? yes i know even the crappiest map has some fans that will be disappointed. but that's the only way that we could make room for more maps and still keep a high level of quality.
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Re: We want you!

Postby The Bison King on Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:47 pm

I don't think removing pre-existing maps should be considered. Especially as a solution to declining interest in up-coming maps. To me that seems like backwards thinking. If everyone in the world had enough food to eat you wouldn't start starving people so that food manufacturers would have something to do. There will always be room for more maps.

However it may be time (I'm just throwing this out there) to have some sort of method for categorizing maps instead of having them all together on one giant generic page. But that's really a different conversation.
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Re: We want you!

Postby DiM on Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:03 pm

The Bison King wrote:I don't think removing pre-existing maps should be considered. Especially as a solution to declining interest in up-coming maps. To me that seems like backwards thinking. If everyone in the world had enough food to eat you wouldn't start starving people so that food manufacturers would have something to do.


actually your example has nothing to do with the current situation. :shock:
lack has expressed many times that what makes this site stand above other sites like grandstrategy and luxdelux is the fact that we don't have thousands of crappy maps. he used to prize quality over quantity. if lack wishes to keep the same image on the market then removing the maps is what he should do. it's all about maintaining the image of a brand, it's about marketing and targeting certain people, not about starving people and whatever you said there.
however i do admit i haven't talked to lack in a long time. i don't know if he still cares about this or what his plans are for the site. maybe he does want to become a luxdelux clone, who knows?

The Bison King wrote:There will always be room for more maps.


yes of course. there should always be room for more maps but only if they prove to be quality maps.
why do you think that classic is the first map and all the rest are alphabetical? because classic is the best, it's the easiest and most pupular map.
put Crosswords for a week in the first position and move classic somewhere in the alphabetical line at letter C.
then start counting the number of new people that join the site and leave after a few games.
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Re: We want you!

Postby ender516 on Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:05 pm

DiM wrote:
ender516 wrote:I wonder if declining general interest in the Foundry isn't just a matter of the Foundry being a victim of its own success. With the huge number of maps available, I doubt many people say to themselves, "I'm sick of all these, I need something new!" So perhaps the vast majority of CC users are content with the selection they have now, and don't dive into the Foundry to push for the next killer map. Without that grass roots support, the development of new maps will have to depend on the small diehard group of people who enjoy this process at any speed, perhaps simply for its own sake.


you know i was thinking the same thing and i might have a solution. however it might not be something that many people would like.
simply weed out the poor maps. when a map falls under a certain performance standard simply remove it. there are maps who did not get in 2 YEARS as many games as classic does in 2-3 DAYS.
do we really need 190 maps? yes i know even the crappiest map has some fans that will be disappointed. but that's the only way that we could make room for more maps and still keep a high level of quality.

I don't think removing maps will drive more people to the Foundry. The fans of those maps may simply leave the site, while others will never miss those maps and still won't need new ones. Plus, you will have mapmakers concerned that their efforts may be wasted if their maps may be dropped at any time in the future.
There is no need to "make room for more maps", as the virtual space is almost boundless. I agree with The Bison King that organizing the Browse Maps function so that the user is more likely to find a map they enjoy would be a better way to market this product. Consumers enjoy choice, but don't want to be overwhelmed by options.
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Re: We want you!

Postby DiM on Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:12 pm

ender516 wrote: I agree with The Bison King that organizing the Browse Maps function so that the user is more likely to find a map they enjoy would be a better way to market this product. Consumers enjoy choice, but don't want to be overwhelmed by options.


organizing the maps is out of the question. there have been numerous suggestions in 2007 and 2008. people spent a lot of hours trying to figure out the best way to arrange the maps. heck some people even went on and photoshoped some layouts where you could sort maps however you wanted. by size by popularity by complexity, etc.
even a 1-5 star rating was suggested to help the new people chose the best maps when they join the site.

what was done? we got a "random map" button. hooray ... hooray ... the crows chants in joy :lol: :lol:

i was one of the people that wasted time trying to come up with a solution back then and i surely would prefer having the maps arranged somehow. in any other form than an alphabetical plethora of images.

but seeing that it's been 4 years and nothing was done about this i assume that lack simply does not want to sort the maps. so naturally the only option is to remove them if sorting is impossible.

i would honestly like to see the following arrangement:

most popular maps...................newest maps........................beta maps


with this arrangement you always have the most popular maps in column one so that new people will know what's best for them to join.
in the newest maps we have maps that have been quenched in the last 6 months (this gives them more than enough time to be at the top and get noticed and establish a fan base). they are also present in the popularity column on the left.
beta maps is for beta maps (duh). it's important to have them at the top so that they have a big visibility and more people could join, test and give feedback.

this is a very simply and easy to implement method of sorting maps and has a lot of advantages. will it be done? never.
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Re: We want you!

Postby WILLIAMS5232 on Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:15 pm

The Bison King wrote:However it may be time (I'm just throwing this out there) to have some sort of method for categorizing maps instead of having them all together on one giant generic page. But that's really a different conversation.

that would be great to have the maps organized other than alphabetically. not sure how it could be done...genre, size, dificulty.....
but none the less, marketing aside, it would make for a better conquer club. +user friendly
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Re: We want you!

Postby Coleman on Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:05 am

ender516 wrote:The Map Surveyors group may not have a private forum, but why does it need one?


I'll try to avoid going into to much detail here. (also a bit late to the party on responding to this but oh well) ((also I failed))

Back when AADOMM was active we would post a Map and say in effect "this map isn't getting much feedback GO!" and there are advantages to not doing something like that publicly or through PMs. Especially when the full rooster of people included in the operation wasn't completely obvious. Some people can look at a map and go, "oh, only feedback assistants and CAs are in here" which does turn them off, if it looks like many regular folks as well they will be more inclined to comment. I understand that sounds unnecessarily covert, but it was quite useful and for a while the frustration turned from not enough people commenting to map makers not responding often enough which is a better problem to have IMO.

WILLIAMS5232 wrote:that would be great to have the maps organized other than alphabetically. not sure how it could be done...genre, size, dificulty.....


A couple years ago (while there were many less maps and it would have required a lot less effort to implement than it will now) we did come up with some things that would work, but were told that while it makes for a pretty picture coding it was more difficult than one would think, which is true. However, as the number of maps grow the need for this feature grows, and it only becomes harder.
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Re: We want you!

Postby TaCktiX on Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:15 pm

Organizing maps has been on the slate for a long time, but it's not coming soon. However, we'll keep on pushing for it, as the potential to have lists (including user-defined ones, for people's faves) would be awesome. Think Amazon's Lists.

Today, CA's are more active on the sum than they were a few years ago. DiM, you say that back in the day CA's stepped in early and gave feedback to a new map. My first map as I recall didn't have a CA post until page 3 (I just checked, and it was only to give me Advanced Idea, no feedback). Back in the day, it was a source of vindication to see Blue in your topic. Also back in the day we had AT LEAST two dozen active commenters on nearly every map to make up for it. So CA activity is up, and overall commenting is down. I literally do not have any more time than I already dedicate to this site, and I know I am not alone.

As nobodies noted, looking at daily posting rates is a terrible metric. A better one is to look at CA posts since last update per map, which I've got a near-100% on Gameplay-stage maps. There aren't enough updates going on to justify making 5-6 posts a day in map topics.
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Re: We want you!

Postby DiM on Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:23 pm

TaCktiX wrote: A better one is to look at CA posts since last update per map, which I've got a near-100% on Gameplay-stage maps.


i agree with this to a certain extent. if a map maker updates his map, then you come post and nobody else does it for a whole month then you shouldn't just say "i posted after the update so i'm done with this map"

as i pointed earlier the foundry community has shrunk a lot and i think the CAs should step in and fill that gap when it comes to feedback giving.
i respect each and everyone's contribution and i'm sure you guys give to the foundry all you can. that's why i said you should get more FAs and bring them in the main foundry to give feedback on all maps.
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Re: We want you!

Postby thenobodies80 on Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:52 pm

DiM wrote:...that's why i said you should get more FAs and bring them in the main foundry to give feedback on all maps.


mmmm...the same people can't give feedback without being a FA or a CA?
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Re: We want you!

Postby Victor Sullivan on Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:54 pm

thenobodies80 wrote:
DiM wrote:...that's why i said you should get more FAs and bring them in the main foundry to give feedback on all maps.


mmmm...the same people can't give feedback without being a FA or a CA?
"That which we call a rose, by any other word would smell as sweet"

I agree with you nobodies, though there is that sort of obligation if you are, in fact, a Foundry Assistant. So in that sense, I can understand where DiM is coming from.

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Re: We want you!

Postby DiM on Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:58 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:
thenobodies80 wrote:
DiM wrote:...that's why i said you should get more FAs and bring them in the main foundry to give feedback on all maps.


mmmm...the same people can't give feedback without being a FA or a CA?
"That which we call a rose, by any other word would smell as sweet"

I agree with you nobodies, though there is that sort of obligation if you are, in fact, a Foundry Assistant. So in that sense, I can understand where DiM is coming from.

-Sully


exactly.
also i don;t know all the people in the foundry but some of them might be shy. i have absolutely no problem when it comes to going to other maps and giving feedback. i always speak my mind and i'm truthful of what i think about that map. some people might not have the courage to do it. some might see an ugly map and fear saying so. they might be thinking "i don't want to criticise that map because i wouldn't want others to come and criticise mine so i'll just shut up and ignore it". with a blue name, along with some obligation to post your thoughts also come more guts. a shy person might actually come out of his shell and start expressing his opinions. of course i wouldn't want a whole bunch of DiMs running around the foundry bashing each and every map. that would hardly make the foundry a nice place to be :D
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Re: We want you!

Postby isaiah40 on Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:54 pm

DiM wrote:... of course i wouldn't want a whole bunch of DiMs running around the foundry bashing each and every map. that would hardly make the foundry a nice place to be :D


Yea you're right, one DiM running around the foundry is enough! :lol:
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Re: We want you!

Postby TaCktiX on Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:16 am

But as per that suggestion, we'd be taking unproven people with no track record of commenting across a forum as a CA is required to do, and essentially vesting them with power they may have zero desire to wield. What we really need to do is focus less on the number of CA's and more on the number of commenters. The former we've got enough of, the latter we do not.
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