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Re: We want you!

Postby ender516 on Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:22 pm

On the face of it, the idea of a Feedback Committee is good, but I am not sure how it differs from the current Map Surveyors group, or the earlier Map Incubator concept.
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Re: We want you!

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:47 pm

ender516 wrote:On the face of it, the idea of a Feedback Committee is good, but I am not sure how it differs from the current Map Surveyors group, or the earlier Map Incubator concept.

Of course, Map Surveyors doesn't have a forum for map discussion and the like.

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Re: We want you!

Postby ender516 on Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:10 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:
ender516 wrote:On the face of it, the idea of a Feedback Committee is good, but I am not sure how it differs from the current Map Surveyors group, or the earlier Map Incubator concept.

Of course, Map Surveyors doesn't have a forum for map discussion and the like.

-Sully

The Map Surveyors group may not have a private forum, but why does it need one? The Map Surveyors should be posting in the individual map threads discussing each map, and if they have general issues to discuss, this forum seems like the right place.
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Re: We want you!

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:35 am

ender516 wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:
ender516 wrote:On the face of it, the idea of a Feedback Committee is good, but I am not sure how it differs from the current Map Surveyors group, or the earlier Map Incubator concept.

Of course, Map Surveyors doesn't have a forum for map discussion and the like.

-Sully

The Map Surveyors group may not have a private forum, but why does it need one? The Map Surveyors should be posting in the individual map threads discussing each map, and if they have general issues to discuss, this forum seems like the right place.

Touché.

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Re: We want you!

Postby DiM on Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:22 am

ender516 wrote:On the face of it, the idea of a Feedback Committee is good, but I am not sure how it differs from the current Map Surveyors group, or the earlier Map Incubator concept.


i don't know who belongs to the map surveyors group or what happened to the incubator concept. all i know is that we need more input from the CAs and FAs.
out of curiosity i looked at some of my old map threads. they're filled with posts from the officials. keyogi, despite our numerous differences and disputes, took his time and posted in my thread on every page, sometimes even on a daily basis. andy was present as well. right now the CAs barely have 2-3 posts per week in the whole foundry. don't get me wrong, i understand that people have personal lives and free time is a very valuable commodity. heck, this is the very reason i left CC 3 years ago, i had no time. so keep the current CAs as their experience is invaluable, get more FAs from the "young generation" and form that Committee that gives feedback daily not weekly.


oh, and feedback from this committee should in no way be regarded as 100% official. they simply have to pop in a and comment like i do or like any other foundry user does.
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Re: We want you!

Postby TaCktiX on Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:00 pm

right now the CAs barely have 2-3 posts per week in the whole foundry.


Bulls***. I've posted on every single map that is currently working toward a gameplay stamp, oftentimes once per time the mapmaker has replied or updated. And I know I'm not the only one who maintains that level of activity on their section. While I plan to "branch out" to other parts, I'm trying to test my time to see if I can maintain what I'm officially responsible for. This is a completely part-time job for me, as it is for everyone else.
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Re: We want you!

Postby cairnswk on Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:19 pm

TaCktiX wrote:
right now the CAs barely have 2-3 posts per week in the whole foundry.


Bulls***. I've posted on every single map that is currently working toward a gameplay stamp, oftentimes once per time the mapmaker has replied or updated. And I know I'm not the only one who maintains that level of activity on their section. While I plan to "branch out" to other parts, I'm trying to test my time to see if I can maintain what I'm officially responsible for. This is a completely part-time job for me, as it is for everyone else.


TaCktiX...where is the list that states who is responsible for which section?
I found the CAs list, but it would be nice if we could see who is responsible for what.

Oh, and while i had Spanish Armada in development, after it was Draft stamped on Jul 6 by IH, and moved to vacation on Jul 20 (at my request) by isaiah40, i didn't see a post in there from any of the CAs, and it was working its way towards a gameplay stamp. So i'm kind of feeling a bit of bull**** is going on there.
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Re: We want you!

Postby Nola_Lifer on Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:26 pm

It would be interesting to have the Map Foundry linked with other map making forums on the internet. I did a google search and found some forums and website with some beautiful map makers. They may not be into conquering or CC in general but if they like making maps then get their asses in here :!: :!:
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Re: We want you!

Postby DiM on Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:41 pm

TaCktiX wrote:
right now the CAs barely have 2-3 posts per week in the whole foundry.


Bulls***. I've posted on every single map that is currently working toward a gameplay stamp, oftentimes once per time the mapmaker has replied or updated. And I know I'm not the only one who maintains that level of activity on their section. While I plan to "branch out" to other parts, I'm trying to test my time to see if I can maintain what I'm officially responsible for. This is a completely part-time job for me, as it is for everyone else.


july 19th - no posts
july 20th - 1 post active map
july 21st - 2 posts in active maps
july 22nd - 1 post in a non active map
july 23rd - no posts
july 24th - 1 post active map
july 25th - 1 post active map
july 26th - no posts

that's 6 posts in 8 days for you

redbaron0 has 10 posts in the last 21 days
iancanton has 15 posts in the last 3 months
MarshalNey has 10 posts this whole month

yes some post more some post less and i'm pretty sure that each one looks at the maps even if he doesn't post. as i said i don't want to upset anybody and i appreciate each and everyone's contribution weather it's 2 posts or 2000 posts. but the problem is that right now the foundry is not the perfect place for a new guy to start map making.

imagine this. he comes in posts a map, he has a solid gameplay and a decent draft and some people even showed interest. but it takes a whole week before an official posts in his map and moves it to drafting room. then it takes even more time before he gets to the main foundry and in this whole time he struggles to get feedback from people without getting much input from officials. a new map maker would feel much more confident if a CA would come and encourage him, give him some tips and advice, explain him how the foundry process works etc.
and when he gets to the main foundry he's in for a hell ride. months upon months of waiting and waiting and begging for feedback and more waiting and a CA responding rarely and so on.
anyway i do not want to turn this in to a CA bashing. all i want is to point out that we need more involvement from the current CAs/FAs and perhaps even recruiting more. if a mapmaker gets encouraged early in the process he's more likely to stay. if then he gets constant feedback especially from CAs/FAs he's more likely to work hard on his map. all this, together with a much faster map making process is guaranteed to produce a better retention rate for map makers and feedback givers. then as the word spreads out of how kind and helpful the CAs are, more and more people will flock to the foundry to be a part of the map making process.
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Re: We want you!

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:30 pm

I can at least vouch for MarshalNey - he was only just recently added back to the CAs. He had computer troubles and was gone for like an entire month. Not to pick favorites here, but he's someone I admire a lot for his contributions to the Foundry. You'll find he's consistent and he's always insightful and types friggen dissertations on map gameplay.

That being said, DiM and cairns have some points here.

And cairns, I believe Industrial Helix and the FAs are in charge of the Drafting Room/Melting Pot, TaCktiX, MarshalNey, and iancanton are Gameplay, isaiah40 and RedBaron0 are Graphics, OliverFA is XML, and nobodies is Final Forge. But yes, a task/assignment list would be nice.

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Re: We want you!

Postby cairnswk on Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:42 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:....
And cairns, I believe Industrial Helix and the FAs are in charge of the Drafting Room/Melting Pot, TaCktiX, MarshalNey, and iancanton are Gameplay, isaiah40 and RedBaron0 are Graphics, OliverFA is XML, and nobodies is Final Forge. But yes, a task/assignment list would be nice.

-Sully


Thanks Sully, that's helpful.
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Re: We want you!

Postby DiM on Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:58 pm

Victor Sullivan wrote:I can at least vouch for MarshalNey - he was only just recently added back to the CAs. He had computer troubles and was gone for like an entire month. Not to pick favorites here, but he's someone I admire a lot for his contributions to the Foundry. You'll find he's consistent and he's always insightful and types friggen dissertations on map gameplay.


i'm sure none of them does it on purpose or deliberately chooses not to give feedback because he's evil or something :)
and as i said before i totally understand the time problem and life getting in the way of CC. that happens and when it does there's very little we can do about it. but to an outsider looking for support it might not always look like this. he will probably interpret the lack of feedback from CAs as a lack of interest and promptly leave.

one thing i hate the most is seeing a map with no action for a long time. if the map maker hasn't posted an update in a few days and nobody else posted then an official could pop in the thread and simply ask how's it going. it's a small thing that takes just a minute but to the map maker it might actually mean something. right now an official comes after X weeks and says "if you don't post an update next week we'll recycle you" that's cold and only in extreme cases recycling should happen. of course i'm not in favour of keeping dead topics around but we should do whatever it takes to prevent those threads from dying. there are few people giving feedback and unfortunately if we want the foundry to keep a high level of quality the officials must pitch in a bit more and help. ideally we would have an abundance of feedback givers and the CAs would simply oversee things and pop in from time to time to make sure things are on the right track. sadly this is not the case.
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Re: We want you!

Postby thenobodies80 on Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:25 pm

cairnswk wrote:...where is the list that states who is responsible for which section?
I found the CAs list, but it would be nice if we could see who is responsible for what.


DiM wrote:but the problem is that right now the foundry is not the perfect place for a new guy to start map making.


Luckily we're working to solve those issues. I'd like to have all the necessary informations updated , easy to gather and quick to read. The addition of the Foundry Assistants should also help the new mapmakers and have more eyes on maps, that exactly what you (dim) are you asking for. Another betterment (to have a more userfriendly Foundry) is already planned and it will be ready to go in few days.

DiM wrote:anyway i do not want to turn this in to a CA bashing.


You're free to voice your opinion. Moreover your opinion is welcome. Please remember that my first objective is to give to you the Foundry that YOU want.
Really, I'm very happy that there's a so open discussion about how to make things better. :)

About the amount of CAs posts, I don't think is the right way to see the Foundry process. Even if it's true that we could post a bit more, I have to remind you (like gimil did with me) that CAs are here to facilitate the Foundry process, not to rule it. If I have to be honest and I have to find where the Foundry lacks of something, then I think that there's lack of community partecipation into the developement. Nowdays it's like maps fall from the sky...if you get what I mean. That's a bad thought and it is hard to fix...at least in few time. :P

But don't worry, it's just matter of time. ;)

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Re: We want you!

Postby MrBenn on Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:03 pm

The "daily public-post test" will fail to capture the amount of PMs, IMs and other communications that the CAs make. Yeah, there are some of the CAs with busy lives (RedBaron0, iancanton, MarshalNey, Industrial Helix and TackTix have all been on restricted duties over the past couple of months), and there probably could be more visibility from the blue brigade but - nobodies is right - the community should be responsible for driving maps forward.

With due respect to Coleman (who is DA MAN!), his omnipresence in the foundry back in his heydey may have contributed to his eventual burnout? Certainly, I know from experience that it is impossible to follow 20-30 map threads simultaneously and still retain control of a daily life in the real world. There are a couple of people who seem to be omnipresent in the foundry nowadays, although I would personally question the ability of these people to lead and guide the foundry while retaining the standards to which we have become accustomed. Given a choice between omnipresence and omnipotence, I would genuinely prefer the latter (with the proviso that the omnipotence was built upon the foundations of a community spirit).
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Re: We want you!

Postby ender516 on Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:08 pm

DiM wrote:
ender516 wrote:On the face of it, the idea of a Feedback Committee is good, but I am not sure how it differs from the current Map Surveyors group, or the earlier Map Incubator concept.


i don't know who belongs to the map surveyors group or what happened to the incubator concept. all i know is that we need more input from the CAs and FAs.
out of curiosity i looked at some of my old map threads. they're filled with posts from the officials. keyogi, despite our numerous differences and disputes, took his time and posted in my thread on every page, sometimes even on a daily basis. andy was present as well. right now the CAs barely have 2-3 posts per week in the whole foundry. don't get me wrong, i understand that people have personal lives and free time is a very valuable commodity. heck, this is the very reason i left CC 3 years ago, i had no time. so keep the current CAs as their experience is invaluable, get more FAs from the "young generation" and form that Committee that gives feedback daily not weekly.


oh, and feedback from this committee should in no way be regarded as 100% official. they simply have to pop in a and comment like i do or like any other foundry user does.


The Map Incubator Experiment attempted to increase the amount of useful feedback by assigning a team of eight to follow a map (or a few maps) from inception to the forge. The team did not consist of CAs or FAs, just interested parties with a mix of experience. They were to be part of the driving force behind the map, leaving the Big Blue Team simply to stamp. After four weeks, it was declared a failure.

The [Official] Map Surveyors group is essentially a mailing list of people who wish to be notified when a map is approaching its next stamp, presumably so that they can get their digs in. I don't know whether this actually increases activity in the map threads, but I suspect it does some. The last PM I got this way (I think) was July 6. I don't recall just how often these usually come out, but I suspect the change in Foundry leadership may have disrupted the schedule.

The point I was driving at was that a Feedback Committee may seem good on paper, but I don't see what it will do that isn't being done or hasn't already been tried.

I wonder if declining general interest in the Foundry isn't just a matter of the Foundry being a victim of its own success. With the huge number of maps available, I doubt many people say to themselves, "I'm sick of all these, I need something new!" So perhaps the vast majority of CC users are content with the selection they have now, and don't dive into the Foundry to push for the next killer map. Without that grass roots support, the development of new maps will have to depend on the small diehard group of people who enjoy this process at any speed, perhaps simply for its own sake.
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