Clan League 3:THE FINAL! AOC vs IA [9-10] IA WINS ! Final !

Finished challenges between two competitive clans.

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Who will win?

Agents of Chaos
27
56%
Immortal Assassins
21
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Total votes : 48

Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [1-2]

Postby Namor on Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:32 am

Lubawski wrote:
mkcummins wrote:what is at question here is whether or not intentionally timing out to avoid carding is a cheap tactic and not one that a top clan should employ, loophole or not. If public opinion or an authoritative ruling should dictate that it is indeed fair and allowed, then so be it. But, until then, that is the topic.

Deflecting to missed turns in defense of such a tactic is a little pathetic. and trying to offset this discussion with attacks on people's inability to show up for a turn, when we have players TAKING their turns, but not finishing them is equally pathetic...

it's a sad day for this site and cc clandom when this kind of junk infects a challenge.


Agreed. Deliberate use of cheap tactics in a clan game, especially in the league final, is disgraceful. IA played the whole season and play-offs wonderfully or they wouldn't be in this position. Now to use a site glitch to gain tactical advantage is sad. Loki did well to stand up for the right in the beginning, but certainly turned tail quickly to back her clan's actions. That too is sad. Leadership means making the tough decisions and standing for what is right even if it hurts you in the process.

I echo Namor's thoughts on quitting CC. I've been in the long drawn out process of retirement now for a few months. What I've seen from top clans recently with regards to cheap tactics makes my decision that much easier. These kinds of discussions shouldn't even have to take place. Clans without honor should be stripped of their clan and those players using cheap tactics banned from participating in a clan.


How can any honourable clan hope to plan a campaign in a competition that allows this sort of cheating. It doesn't matter if this particular loophole is fixed or covered by the rules, for future competitions, because there is always going to be another loophole to be found. The only hope we have, is to expect every clan to stick to a code of conduct and the unwritten rules.

Let's not kid ourselves that any of us are far superior players to everyone else. At the end of the day, when 2 top-tier clans meet, they have pretty much a 50/50 chance of victory. We hope to increase our odds by choosing a map that we feel our strategy will give us an edge, over the oppositions lack of XP, on said map. But once they have done the same, it really just comes down to the luck of the dice, drop and first turn. But those odds can swing well beyond the 50/50 mark, if one clan are prepared to use cheap tactics. AoC are under no illusions that we are a better clan than our earlier opponents Empire & KoRT, we consider ourselves to be their equal and just happened to get a little more luck than they did, on the day... we beat them because they played an honest game.

What makes this really sad and depressing, is that most of IA played a blinder and would likely have won this without the cheating. In the end though, they have made any victory they may gain, a hollow one... poor show.
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL

Postby ljex on Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:33 pm

Eyestone wrote:
FarangDemon wrote:
Eyestone wrote:
Master Fenrir wrote:I'm rooting for IA, but I fear the legendary AoC dice...


Yup. It's even stronger now that it has been changed to women's footballs. We are huge on female soccer :!: Just like how Norway demolished the dreaded Equatorial Guinea by 1-0 last night. They toyed with them up until the 87th minute before scoring the decisive goal. That's how we will toy with The Assissans in this challenge 8-)


While you are toying with the Assissans, four shiv-wielding figures congeal out of the blackness to assassinate you... and then meld back into the shadows


How inapropriate! I'm only armed with my dice...


if a man with no arms has a gun, is he armed?
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [1-2]

Postby ljex on Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:42 pm

Seulessliathan wrote:
Eyestone wrote:Details of the incidence are as follows:
show: Incident



You missed to mention that your mate regan missed/skipped his turn in 3rd Crusade. I am always a fan of telling the whole story. I don´t say this would legitimate running out of time, i just believe it´s always better not to hide such details which might be important too. Skipped turns can be considered cheap tactics too, and since you guys already discuss this subject, it doesn´t seem to be very likely that nobody was able to sit for regan (i don´t say you skipped it on purpose, but it looks like in this situation, of course it can still be a normal missed turn)

To the topic:
I have heard this discussion more then once before, and usually more people tend to agree with Eyestone/AOC about this, but others say , if the system still allows it, it must be a feature.
IMO CC mechanics should be changed in that way that you get a card after you conquered/bombed ter in your turn, no matter if you end your turn or not. Would be a suprise if that has never been suggested in Suggestion Forum, perhaps someone who has seen it there can tell us what was the reason to decide against it, or tell us that they plan it soon.

I think this should be discussed, and if CC doesn´t change the mechanics, then clans should consider to make a gentleman rule about this. All Clans would have to agree to this rule if playing League or CC Cup, in clan wars both clans can discuss it.
In case majority considers this a feature, then we should let every clan know that it´s fine to run out of time.



idk if anyone has answered this yet as most clan players dont play freestyle, but a change to that rule would effect freestyle for the worse which is probably why the mechanics have not changed and wont unless there is a way to divide them between different game types. Clans...especially top clans should be better than this though.
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [1-2]

Postby Master Fenrir on Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:07 am

Namor wrote:...this has just about ended my enjoyment of this fucking shitty site. There is way to much bickering and cheating, i don't really enjoy it any more. I'm fairly certain that I will quit, after these games.

Amazing. It seems like every week there's another OG who shares this sentiment.
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [1-2]

Postby Pirlo on Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:35 pm

goooooooooooooooo Zizooooooooooooooooooooooo
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [1-2]

Postby Commander9 on Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:10 pm

Master Fenrir wrote:Amazing. It seems like every week there's another OG who shares this sentiment.


Perhaps due to the fact that there's some validity to it?
But... It was so artistically done.
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [1-2]

Postby Denise on Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:14 pm

andy_is_awesome wrote:Does IA have a stance on the "loop hole"?
We don't expect you to agree as a whole, every clan is going to have a mixed camp on the issue.
But there should be a prevailing consensus from your group that you as a clan play by. Right?
...maybe that's where we're wrong.

For the record AoC does not intentionally miss turns. Any sort of tactics would be dealt with internally by us.
We have our code of conduct.


I am also interested in IA's stand on taking advantage of this loop hole. From this post in the CLA, it would appear that the leadership, at least, is against it in theory. I think the right thing for IA to do is to admit that this was the wrong way to play the game, and offer to make it right by redoing the game(s) in question. How refreshing would that be? No C&A report, no locked thread, just clans working out a disagreement like adults. It might even convince a few great players who are on their way out to stay a while.

VampireM wrote:i would just like to add that i think i agree with the majority about nukes, until there is no way to abuse the system we shouldn't use them. Though Dako brings up a good point about just not allowing unlimited reinforcements.. i just dont like the option of abusing the system, i personally dont want to be put in a situlation where i feel i can gain an advantage by intentional not ending my turn..

I kind of like the playoffs of the league, i can see the merit to take it out to have two different competitions but i would of liked to see an expansion in the playoff games.. instead of 18 games maybe 41,

just my two cents
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [1-2]

Postby Rodion on Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:26 pm

Seulessliathan wrote:I hope IA and AOC will have an agreement about this soon and i hope there will be a rule about this for all clan events. I´m ok to say it´s legal, i´m ok to decide it will be forbidden, i´m fine with a change of game mechanics (my prefered option) but i really dislike having no rule about this.


These are precisely my feelings regarding the situation of timing out to avoid a card (or any other loophole people can come up with).

Luckily, it only takes 2 people to solve that uncertainty: JP for CL4 and Chuuuuck for CC3. While that doesn't happen, we can try to use the "rule modifications" (Chuuuuck allows that for the CCup) to forbid that practice. If the clan you're playing does not agree with making that a rule, at least you know from the get-go and can plan accordingly.
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [1-2]

Postby Zidane - 21 on Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:34 pm

Pirlo wrote:goooooooooooooooo Zizooooooooooooooooooooooo


Thanks for the support!
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [1-2]

Postby Eyestone on Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:19 am

Update on the games:

Game 9289558Pelop War and Game 9289535 Middle Ages goes to AOC. Triple Alliance Game 9289606 goes to IA.

Current score is 3-3.
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [1-2]

Postby Namor on Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:54 am

Denise wrote:
andy_is_awesome wrote:Does IA have a stance on the "loop hole"?
We don't expect you to agree as a whole, every clan is going to have a mixed camp on the issue.
But there should be a prevailing consensus from your group that you as a clan play by. Right?
...maybe that's where we're wrong.

For the record AoC does not intentionally miss turns. Any sort of tactics would be dealt with internally by us.
We have our code of conduct.


I am also interested in IA's stand on taking advantage of this loop hole. From this post in the CLA, it would appear that the leadership, at least, is against it in theory. I think the right thing for IA to do is to admit that this was the wrong way to play the game, and offer to make it right by redoing the game(s) in question. How refreshing would that be? No C&A report, no locked thread, just clans working out a disagreement like adults. It might even convince a few great players who are on their way out to stay a while.

VampireM wrote:i would just like to add that i think i agree with the majority about nukes, until there is no way to abuse the system we shouldn't use them. Though Dako brings up a good point about just not allowing unlimited reinforcements.. i just dont like the option of abusing the system, i personally dont want to be put in a situlation where i feel i can gain an advantage by intentional not ending my turn..

I kind of like the playoffs of the league, i can see the merit to take it out to have two different competitions but i would of liked to see an expansion in the playoff games.. instead of 18 games maybe 41,

just my two cents


Well spotted Denise.

So that is 100% of IA leadership that thinks this tactic is wrong, they have both expressed this opinion in the CLA. Since the CLA reps are there as the voice of their clan, it is only natural for the rest of us to assume that the whole clan would be against it.

It is understandable, that one or even two of their members forgot what game they were playing at the time and played the tactic without thinking, but they have had three members use it. Since we then offered them the chance to redeem themselves and both leaders (after consulting the players in question), decided to decline our offer and keep the advantage they'd gained, we can only assume that the whole clan have changed their stance on it and now consider it to be fair... Poor show :(
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [1-2]

Postby The Voice on Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:58 pm

Eyestone wrote:AOC considers use of this exploit to be cheating. We are likely to state that we want opponents to sign up to not using it ahead of all future challenges in which we partake. Our participation in future events is likely to be dependent on it. We want to play this game the way it's meant to be played, we hope that most people would see it that way.


That's a very reasonable condition. Yet, it's very sad that this must now be included with the likes of other conditions. Am I wrong in thinking that exploiting this loophole is a rarity among clan games, or does it occur more often than I thought?

Has anyone mentioned the counter that timing out loses a forting opportunity? That may be IA's new perspective. Of course, the counter's counter is that a person in danger of being eliminated need not be making forts anyway and that effectively stealing a card from the opposing team is much more detrimental.
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [1-2]

Postby TheSpaceCowboy on Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:15 pm

The game setting is called "spoils" for a reason. . .when you conquer a territory, you collect the bounty from whatever you just pillaged.

Circumvention of this setting by "timing out" is no different than circumventing the setting of fog of war by hacking into an account of an opposing player to see into the fog. Both are methods to get around the design of the chosen game.

When the settings are agreed upon by the teams, the teams should honor the spirit of those settings, even when a loophole exists to manipulate the outcome in your favour. At best it is a crafty scheme, and at worst, it is outright cheating. Either way, it is dishonorable and violates the integrity of the clan world. This is not some random public game against some pack of noobs. When you enter the clan domain, there are rivalries, relationships, community, honor, etc.

I hope that there can be a happy and satisfactory resolve to this. I do not blame anyone for choosing this route initially, but when ethical issues are raised and brought to the attention of everyone, I would expect it to be fixed and resolved. There is no reason to hold onto a dishonorable tactic when it can all be worked out.
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [1-2]

Postby Mageplunka69 on Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:23 pm

bullshit
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [1-2]

Postby TheSpaceCowboy on Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:17 am

rbelgrod wrote:bullshit


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ROTFLMAO. Too funny, Rich. You can't make this stuff up.
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [1-2]

Postby NanoTheGreat on Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:40 pm

rbelgrod wrote:bullshit


:lol: :lol: that is perfect!!!
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [5-6]

Postby Masli on Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:12 am

I'm back from my vacation, score is updated ;)
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [7-8] 26 july

Postby jpcloet on Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:15 am

Is it me or will this come down to Game 9291344
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [7-8] 26 july

Postby Eyestone on Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:22 am

jpcloet wrote:Is it me or will this come down to Game 9291344


It is you :P
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [7-8] 26 july

Postby Leehar on Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:26 am

Yeah, I would think Conquerman and Forb City have pretty much decided this for IA
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [8-9] 3 Aug

Postby Master Fenrir on Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:23 am

Game 9289587

That makes 10 for IA. It's nice to see you guys win something for once. ;)
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [8-9] 3 Aug

Postby Denise on Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:59 am

Congratulations, IA! =D> =D> =D>
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [8-10] IA WINS !!!

Postby Masli on Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:46 am

We have a winnerrrr ding ding ding

Well done IA !!!!
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [8-9] 3 Aug

Postby lord voldemort on Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:27 am

Master Fenrir wrote:Game 9289587

That makes 10 for IA. It's nice to see you guys win something for once. ;)

Even if it was questionable
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Re: Clan League 3 : THE FINAL ! AOC vs IA [8-9] 3 Aug

Postby Leehar on Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:23 am

lord voldemort wrote:
Master Fenrir wrote:Game 9289587

That makes 10 for IA. It's nice to see you guys win something for once. ;)

Even if it was questionable

but unfortunately still legal.
Heck, I'm still wondering if Empire's dice isn't unquestionable ;)
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